Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Jester Joe]

So I never said raiding isn't mandatory though. Someone made a point that wow is "raid or die" and that hasn't been true since Legion, as M+ was introduced and allowed people to be at or near a point of similar ilvl to even the most hardcore of raiders.

Fair, but I think that was their point?

That the old mindset of "raid or die" was disliked, so we ended up here instead.

[Swnem]

How can you say this when you can quite literally spam M+ all day and get full 470+ in less than a week?

Ok, take a moment and read that again.

"Remember"... "now we're here" (read the title of the thread). I am saying how we went from one extreme to the other.


Btw, what you are saying is not correct. You cannot gear is 470+ in a week. It's 465 that drops from dungeons. Weekly chest gives 475.
Mythic raiding drops 475-485 and you can get several pieces of gear per week, you can also trade with other people. That doesn't happen with the mythic+ chest.

So, are we done here? Give it some time to breathe with the new ilvl design. Dungeons are only good at the beginning of a new tier if you raid mythic.

[Laqweeta]

Ok, take a moment and read that again.

"Remember"... "now we're here" (read the title of the thread). I am saying how we went from one extreme to the other.


Btw, what you are saying is not correct. You cannot gear is 470+ in a week. It's 465 that drops from dungeons. Weekly chest gives 475.
Mythic raiding drops 475-485 and you can get several pieces of gear per week, you can also trade with other people. That doesn't happen with the mythic+ chest.

So, are we done here? Give it some time to breathe with the new ilvl design. Dungeons are only good at the beginning of a new tier if you raid mythic.

Right. I'm saying WoW is no longer raid or die because of the fact that Mythic+ can get you up to or near Mythic raiding ilvl. That was NEVER the case during BC, WotlK, Cata or MoP. You literally had raiding as end game content and that was it.

Also oops, 465+, excuse my being 5 ilvls off and eventually hit full 475 from the chest kekw

[Swnem]

Right. I'm saying WoW is no longer raid or die because of the fact that Mythic+ can get you up to or near Mythic raiding ilvl. That was NEVER the case during BC, WotlK, Cata or MoP. You literally had raiding as end game content and that was it.

Also oops, 465+, excuse my being 5 ilvls off and eventually hit full 475 from the chest kekw

Yes, we aren't disagreeing here.

The eventual 475 part will take months though. ^^ it's a completely random drop. For example, i got pants 3 weeks in a row on my monk just recently. The weekly chest is not reliable cause then there's also the question of secondary stats. I have many 475 items that are not beter than 465 ones for a given spec.
I know what you mean, but i think your rant is one patch too late. They made changes and it looks fine currently.

[munkeyinorbit]

you may need a refund on that math education,if a difficulty was gone,it would be -15 per tier, bfa had uldir,dazalor,palace and nyalotha,thats -60 ilvls by the end

I will give you 2 free lessons here.

1. Even if your assertion was correct and gear lost 15 ilvls per raid (I will explain why this is wrong) there is only 45 ilvls lost between 8.0 and 8.3. You don't count the first raid. Now pay attention here. This is where the magic happens.

2. Heroic is the highest ilvl because mythic is gone. Uldir is 370. BfD is 400. Azshara is 430. Nzoth is 460+. Do you see that? Do you see how it is 15 ilvl less than it is today?

I don't need a refund on my math education because it is free when you are 7. I used basic arithmetic to solve the problem.

- - - Updated - - -

correct, with titanforging gone the true fix would be to make each difficulty reward only 5 item levels higher than the one below it then at least gear would be relevant for more than 1 tier. Also get rid of LFR it only serves to bloat the item level creep anyway.

As I have demonstrated the ilvl bloat has nothing to do with 4 difficulties. Having 3 difficulties would reduce it by 15 in a whole expansion. Assuming raiding starts from normal, reducing the gap between difficulties would only drop the highest obtainable ilvl by 20. Go on. Get a piece of paper and work it out. We have time.

To reduce "bloat" we need to reduce the difference between raids. If we reduced it to 25 from 30 we would lose 15 ilvls in bfa. If we reduced it to 15 from 30 we reduce it by 45. This is at 4 difficulties.

Not only have I proven that getting rid of difficulties is not that answer to bloat, I have proven that reducing the difference between difficulties is also wrong.

Before this thread I use to think that ilvls didn't need any more squishing because it's only arithmetic using 3 figures. In most countries you learn this by the age of 7. Boy was I wrong.

[deenman]

I will give you 2 free lessons here.

1. Even if your assertion was correct and gear lost 15 ilvls per raid (I will explain why this is wrong) there is only 45 ilvls lost between 8.0 and 8.3. You don't count the first raid. Now pay attention here. This is where the magic happens.

2. Heroic is the highest ilvl because mythic is gone. Uldir is 370. BfD is 400. Azshara is 430. Nzoth is 460+. Do you see that? Do you see how it is 15 ilvl less than it is today?

I don't need a refund on my math education because it is free when you are 7. I used basic arithmetic to solve the problem.

- - - Updated - - -



As I have demonstrated the ilvl bloat has nothing to do with 4 difficulties. Having 3 difficulties would reduce it by 15 in a whole expansion. Assuming raiding starts from normal, reducing the gap between difficulties would only drop the highest obtainable ilvl by 20. Go on. Get a piece of paper and work it out. We have time.

To reduce "bloat" we need to reduce the difference between raids. If we reduced it to 25 from 30 we would lose 15 ilvls in bfa. If we reduced it to 15 from 30 we reduce it by 45. This is at 4 difficulties.

Not only have I proven that getting rid of difficulties is not that answer to bloat, I have proven that reducing the difference between difficulties is also wrong.

Before this thread I use to think that ilvls didn't need any more squishing because it's only arithmetic using 3 figures. In most countries you learn this by the age of 7. Boy was I wrong.

honestly i feel im getting punked here...are you punking me?

mythic is gone

uldir starts at 355 goes to 370,bfd no longer starts at 385,now it starts at 370! and it ends with 385,next up azshara no longer starts at 415,now it starts at 400,and then nzoth raid starts at 400 and only goes up to 415 and nzoth himself is 420


again....math refund unless your just trolling

[IndCold]

2. Heroic is the highest ilvl because mythic is gone. Uldir is 370. BfD is 400. Azshara is 430. Nzoth is 460+. Do you see that? Do you see how it is 15 ilvl less than it is today?

That's if subsequent raids start at the same ilvl of previous raids' max. If they start 15 ilvls lower like they currently do, NWC caps at 415-425.
Uldir 340-355-370
BfD 355-370-385
CoS 360-375-390
EP 370-385-400
NWC 385-400-415(425)

[Kralljin]

Not only have I proven that getting rid of difficulties is not that answer to bloat, I have proven that reducing the difference between difficulties is also wrong.

You're not wrong, I think it is their insistence on the "play the patch" mentality that leads to these massive jumps.

Mythic from the previous tier is not supposed to yield equivalent gear for heroics raiders of the current tier, thus Blizzard bumps Ilvl up by 30 every tier, to ensure Mythic from the previous tier does not become a source of gear for heroic raiders.
Multiple layers of difficulty contribute to this factor due to the aforementioned mentality, but the easier solution at hand would be to lower the amount you're bumping the Ilvl each tier.

But it would make the previous tiers for the lower difficulties even more attractive, something i assume that Blizzard really doesn't want.

uldir starts at 355 goes to 370,bfd no longer starts at 385,now it starts at 370! and it ends with 385,next up azshara no longer starts at 415,now it starts at 400,and then nzoth raid starts at 400 and only goes up to 415 and nzoth himself is 420

Your Math is off.
Blizzard throws +30 Ilvl on items every tier, assuming the same difficulty.

If Uldir starts at 355, then BoD will start at 385.

You assume that the corresponding difficulty only adds +15 Ilvl, moving from one tier to another, yet right now Blizzard throws +30 Ilvl on it, not 15.

[deenman]

You're not wrong, I think it is their insistence on the "play the patch" mentality that leads to these massive jumps.

Mythic from the previous tier is not supposed to yield equivalent gear for heroics raiders of the current tier, thus Blizzard bumps Ilvl up by 30 every tier, to ensure Mythic from the previous tier does not become a source of gear for heroic raiders.
Multiple layers of difficulty contribute to this factor due to the aforementioned mentality, but the easier solution at hand would be to lower the amount you're bumping the Ilvl each tier.

But it would make the previous tiers for the lower difficulties even more attractive, something i assume that Blizzard really doesn't want.

Your Math is off.
Blizzard throws +30 Ilvl on items every tier, assuming the same difficulty.

If Uldir starts at 355, then BoD will start at 385.

You assume that the corresponding difficulty only adds +15 Ilvl, moving from one tier to another, yet right now Blizzard throws +30 Ilvl on it, not 15.

normal of the next tier starts with mythic ilvl of the previous tier,why would this change?the idea is to cut of the huge power scaling,so cut one difficulty and it adds up,whats the problem?

[MoanaLisa]

The reason it's called a theme park is because there are different ways to progress in different kinds of content.

Raiding is meaningless in one sense: next expansion you'll replace everything with quest gear before starting over again. It's not for me any longer but for those that get into it, that's great.

[Kralljin]

the idea is to cut of the huge power scaling,so cut one difficulty and it adds up,whats the problem?

It doesn't add up, as explained.

The reason is that they add +30 Ilvl onto items of the same difficulty each tier, not additional difficulties.
That's the issue.

By removing a single difficulty, you just cut down +15 Ilvl in total.
If you want to cut down on power, you should be talking the reduction of this this jump first and foremost, not the removal of a difficulty.

We could have one difficulty and it would still be fucked up when Blizzard throw +30 Ilvl onto each tier.
Thing is, Blizzard doesn't want people to do "old content" for gear, that's the reason why there is a massive gap.

[deenman]

It doesn't add up, as explained.

The reason is that they add +30 Ilvl onto items of the same difficulty each tier, not additional difficulties.
That's the issue.

By removing a single difficulty, you just cut down +15 Ilvl in total.
If you want to cut down on power, you should be talking the reduction of this this jump first and foremost, not the removal of a difficulty.

We could have one difficulty and it would still be fucked up when Blizzard throw +30 Ilvl onto each tier.
Thing is, Blizzard doesn't want people to do "old content" for gear, that's the reason why there is a massive gap.

im seriously going crazy here....removing one difficulty doesnt cut 15...it cuts 15 per freaking tier....how is this so hard to understand?in bfa its a -60 ilvls with its 4 tiers....what is this about +30??? mythilc uldir=normal dazalor

[Osmeric]

im seriously going crazy here....removing one difficulty doesnt cut 15...it cuts 15 per freaking tier...

Not 15 PER TIER. 15 just once (per expansion).

[deenman]

Not 15 PER TIER. 15 just once (per expansion).

if we remove one difficulty it is 15 per tier...combine normal and hc in to flex,and you are left with lfr flex and mythic,thats a 15 per tier with a total of 60 ilvl GONE per expansion

[Osmeric]

if we remove one difficulty it is 15 per tier...combine normal and hc in to flex,and you are left with lfr flex and mythic,thats a 15 per tier with a total of 60 ilvl GONE per expansion

No, it is not an extra 15 PER TIER. It is 15 ONCE at the start of the expansion, when the extra difficulty level inserts an extra 15 ilvls into the stack. After that, at each tier, each of the elements of this stack goes up by 30 ilvls. Removing one difficulty from the stack reduces the size of that stack at the start, taking out a 15 ilvl step, but doesn't change the +30 ilvl increment from one tier to the next.

[Fathr]

Let's ignore that part about speaking for the majority because you know damn well I'm referring to a real part of the playerbase, independently of it's size.

Blizzard didn't had a "wonderfully working system". If they had it, they wouldn't have spent all this time creating a infra-structure that supports more endgame routes. People complained all the time that the only thing to do at the endgame was raiding, especially during WoD. Raids of Warcraft was the name of the game.

People doing Mythic+ aren't "doing nothing", they are doing content and being rewarded according to the difficulty of content. Of course some players may feel threatened because how dare others get cool rewards too but that's only natural - Blizzard shouldn't cater to envious elitists just because they think Bobjoe doesn't deserve a gear upgrade after doing 15 +20 dungeons this week.

People complained, blizzard caved in or came up with a solution. This is why we are in this sorry mess! Wotlk the Height of the game had none of this crap. You pvped or you raided, or did whatever else floated your boat, the end. When i look at retail now I feel totally disconnected by the many options, way too many systems and none of them have the appeal anymore. Perhaps ashes of creation can bring back the mmorpg feeling ? I dont know but I sure long for one!

[rhorle]

No, it is not an extra 15 PER TIER. It is 15 ONCE at the start of the expansion, when the extra difficulty level inserts an extra 15 ilvls into the stack. After that, at each tier, each of the elements of this stack goes up by 30 ilvls. Removing one difficulty from the stack reduces the size of that stack at the start, taking out a 15 ilvl step, but doesn't change the +30 ilvl increment from one tier to the next.

You both are arguing essentially the same thing. The perspective is just different. Each tier will still be 15 item levels lower because the starting point was 15 item levels lower. 25+30 is different then 10+30. By 15 item levels. If you have 4 tiers in the old and new expansion then the item level bloat will be off by 60 item levels. So you lost 15 per tier because the start lost 15.

The 30 item level increment also does not need to remain the same if a difficulty is removed. Because the +30 is tied to the item level increase required for four difficulties. So if that number is changed the item level bloat could decrease further.

[Celestraza]

I agree with OP that the gear progression of M+ is bad for raiding.

It makes no sense to have M+ drop infinite (problem 1) gear which through TF potentially is superior to raid loot (problem 2). Whereas in raids the drops are finite (weekly). Why ever bother with raids with such a lucrative source of gear which also is nowhere near as time consuming as mythic raids.

Although I must say that these are issues that decrease raid experience. I would rather have Blizzard focus on other things that are way more important. Like stopping with seasonal borrowed powers and start making classes feel whole again, stop the insane seasonal grinds and stop funneling/forcing people to play a single spec.

Then again I already settled with Classic. AQ patch just started a week ago and the war event is about to start at any moment on my realm. Been looking forward to this for so long. Can't remember when I last was this hyped on retail....

[Bigcountry11782]

If other people having content that they enjoy makes your preferred content feel meaningless, then you're way too focused on gear. You need to realize that gear is a means to an end, not the end itself. Gear allows you to progress through content. If gear is your primary motivation, then you might enjoy games like Diablo 3, where the entire point is the loot treadmill. WoW is not that game and will hopefully never be.

But it is.Look at Mythic+ that came directly from diablo 3.if you think gear isn't raiders primary motivation then you have a very odd view on wow as a whole and the majority of the player base.When you get that last piece of tier that completes the set or that weapon that has eluded you for months finally drop and you win the roll it is a great moment or you finish a long chain of quests and challenges and you can wield a powerful legendary weapon.Oh wait i forget i am thinking of the old wow when gear meant something....Now with this Mythic+ shit you can just do it over and over and over and over till you get what you want and no one else can challenge you to a roll to win the item.Sounds just like another game from blizzard,i just can't put my finger on it... oHHHH its just like Diablo 3 This is one of the reasons why the game is a shell of its former self.

[ping-pong]

Normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > Mythic dungeons > Mythic+

LFR raid > Normal raid > Heroic raid > Mythic raid

You could literally not step foot into a raid and play Mythic+ as your main way of gearing, never seeing any content in raid beyond LFR just to experience the story, and you can hit item level 475.

Want to experience harder content? time commitment. Grinding dailies. RNG gear drops. find a guild. find 20 other people for mythic. Do visions. Do world bosses. Farm for gold to afford to raid. ect.

There is a reason that WOTLK had the biggest player base ever in Warcraft history, the game was easy. There was meaningful progression, when you were done gearing in dungeons for that patches current gear, you would look to find a 10 man or 25 man normal raiding guild. The content wasn't that hard, people had fun being able to clear the content, or learn the content together with their guild. I remember Naxx being easily puggable, Ulduar also wasn't half bad.

The point I am trying to make is that there's simply to many ways to get gear. Raids used to have this feeling of curiosity and people wanted to explore them. Instead of making it widely available via LFR, you had no other choice but to either commit to a guild to see the content, or you didn't get any better gear. It was that simple.

I'd rather see a system like this again then the current. I came back after a 5 year hiatus, found a guild to do Mythic+ and start raiding, and cleared LFR Nyalotha to see the content because I'm so many months behind on my cape. SO many trolls in LFR now, just ridiculous that this game mode is even still in development.

What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?

You're wrong. It's good that you have choices.