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  1. #1

    Is "Renown" here to stay?

    It feels like Blizzard has created a new level 60 progression that is here to stay as a replacement to increasing levels when releasing a new expansion.

    I think it would make a lot more sense for Renown to be used in 10.0 as opposed to increasing the level cap to 70 AND adding on top of that some kind of a new progression system for max level players. Since leveling itself won't take more than 7 hours, why even bother adding it for expansions after SL.

    I think Renown would a be good base progression system for max level on top of which other new systems can be based and tied to, similar to the build-your-own talent tree conduit system. Very "next-gen" like innovative systems IMO. Really hope these two systems can stay in some shape or form beyond SL and for leveling to never increase beyond 60 ever again.

    Now if they could just redo the leveling experience of previous expansions to include max level zone stories and end game bosses in a condensed, solo friendly version, similar to the new starting experience, that would be awesome!

    And While at it, might as well create a solo queue for old expansion raids for all but mythic difficulty so players don't have to travel to the entrance, it would make farming them for xmog, mounts and pet collection much more convenient, a much needed QOL feature imo.

    For new players who just started playing at the release of 10.0, they can be offered the choice to level up from 1 to 60 in 10.0 so both old and new players can play together. Or, if this is too difficult or undesired, they can level in 9.0 from 1 to 60.

    In Lakrin's words in his comment below, he seems to fully understand what I am getting at: " the argument is more that leveling hasn't really meant a whole lot the past few expansions other than numbers get bigger. " THAT plus the fact that they changed it so it doesn't take more than a single evening to level up to max in SL.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2020-08-09 at 11:31 AM.

  2. #2
    What is with people and suggesting to have no more leveling/levels? Do they not understand this is a MMO?? It's bad enough we're reset to level 60 but to be stuck there is just horrible.
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  3. #3
    Mechagnome Lakrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    What is with people and suggesting to have no more leveling/levels? Do they not understand this is a MMO?? It's bad enough we're reset to level 60 but to be stuck there is just horrible.
    I think the argument is more that leveling hasn't really meant a whole lot the past few expansions other than numbers get bigger. It's much more interesting when you unlock more abilities or character decisions with leveling up, but honestly, with a game as old and expanded-on as WoW, it's no wonder they've run out of new abilities, and if they didn't, we'd just end up with more bloat and homogenization anyways. I don't think we should get rid of levels altogether, but we do need some innovation in this space to keep it interesting.

    And this is coming from someone that gets loremaster ASAP every expansion just for the giggles of it, so it's not that I don't want to do leveling content, just that leveling itself seems redundant or useless as a system at this point for new expansions.

  4. #4
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    Or they can just reset us back in 15years again, when the levels get big again.
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  5. #5
    I don't really enjoy leveling myself nor these alternative power progression systems give me dungeons and raids and keep your foul grinding.

  6. #6
    Id like to see them do with levels what they did with professions. You would level to a base level of 60 (yay for nostalgia) and then you start 10.0 at... whatever you want to call it base lvl 1, lvl the usual 10 lvls you would do in an expac and then youd be at xpac level 10 (max) and just chilling. That way, if you are lvl 60 and quit during SL but want to come back in 12.0 you can just pop in hit 12.0 xpac lvl 10 and move on.

    If they wanted to go back and lvl through 10.0 and 11.0 they could. Maybe even add the "legacy dmg" to people who are only lvl 10 in that expac, or just add the legacy dmg to raids 1-2 expacs back. But this way lvls would always stay at 60 and you could just lvl in the expac you want just like current professions.

  7. #7
    Elemental Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    It feels like Blizzard has created a new level 60 progression that is here to stay as a replacement to increasing levels when releasing a new expansion.

    I think it would make a lot more sense for Renown to be used in 10.0 as opposed to increasing the level cap to 70 AND adding on top of that some kind of a new progression system for max level players. Since leveling itself won't take more than 7 hours, why even bother adding it for expansions after SL.

    I think Renown would a be good base progression system for max level on top of which other new systems can be based and tied to, similar to the build-your-own talent tree conduit system. Very "next-gen" like innovative systems IMO. Really hope these two systems can stay in some shape or form beyond SL and for leveling to never increase beyond 60 ever again.

    Now if they could just redo the leveling experience of previous expansions to include max level zone stories and end game bosses in a condensed, solo friendly version, similar to the new starting experience, that would be awesome!

    And While at it, might as well create a solo queue for old expansion raids for all but mythic difficulty so players don't have to travel to the entrance, it would make farming them for xmog, mounts and pet collection much more convenient, a much needed QOL feature imo.

    For new players who just started playing at the release of 10.0, they can be offered the choice to level up from 1 to 60 in 10.0 so both old and new players can play together.

    In Lakrin's words in his comment below, he seems to fully understand what I am getting at: " the argument is more that leveling hasn't really meant a whole lot the past few expansions other than numbers get bigger. " THAT plus the fact that they changed it so it doesn't take more than a single evening to level up to max in SL.
    I think renown is going to be SL specific. I think though that 60 will always be the new level cap. Each new expansion we get squished to 50 and level to 60 again. Otherwise the same issues arise

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    I think renown is going to be SL specific. I think though that 60 will always be the new level cap. Each new expansion we get squished to 50 and level to 60 again. Otherwise the same issues arise
    yep have same feeling

  9. #9
    Seems to me its VERY likely that 60 will always be max level.

    After Shadowlands, we become 50 again.
    Shadowlands gets the same treatment as the previous expansions and becomes an option for Chromie Time.

    Otherwise, the entire level squish, changes and Chromie Time logic was just created to be thrown away.

  10. #10
    Stood in the Fire Krimzin's Avatar
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    Only til your level 40 Renown then you dont have to worry about it
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    What is with people and suggesting to have no more leveling/levels? Do they not understand this is a MMO?? It's bad enough we're reset to level 60 but to be stuck there is just horrible.
    Leveling hasn't meant anything in WoW in a very long time. We aren't gaining spells or new talents anymore, so what's the point in increasing the level cap?


    Anyways, I agree with @MrLachyG, 60 will likely be the new endgame level cap from now on, with each expansion being folded into the 10-50 leveling range when it's no longer current content like BFA will be, and every expansion squishing us down to 50 at the start.

    Again, levels don't mean anything anymore, so there's no reason not to just streamline and futureproof that process.
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  12. #12
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    It feels like Blizzard has created a new level 60 progression that is here to stay as a replacement to increasing levels when releasing a new expansion.

    I think it would make a lot more sense for Renown to be used in 10.0 as opposed to increasing the level cap to 70 AND adding on top of that some kind of a new progression system for max level players. Since leveling itself won't take more than 7 hours, why even bother adding it for expansions after SL.

    I think Renown would a be good base progression system for max level on top of which other new systems can be based and tied to, similar to the build-your-own talent tree conduit system. Very "next-gen" like innovative systems IMO. Really hope these two systems can stay in some shape or form beyond SL and for leveling to never increase beyond 60 ever again.

    Now if they could just redo the leveling experience of previous expansions to include max level zone stories and end game bosses in a condensed, solo friendly version, similar to the new starting experience, that would be awesome!

    And While at it, might as well create a solo queue for old expansion raids for all but mythic difficulty so players don't have to travel to the entrance, it would make farming them for xmog, mounts and pet collection much more convenient, a much needed QOL feature imo.

    For new players who just started playing at the release of 10.0, they can be offered the choice to level up from 1 to 60 in 10.0 so both old and new players can play together.

    In Lakrin's words in his comment below, he seems to fully understand what I am getting at: " the argument is more that leveling hasn't really meant a whole lot the past few expansions other than numbers get bigger. " THAT plus the fact that they changed it so it doesn't take more than a single evening to level up to max in SL.
    Renown has literally nothing to do with levels, idk what the heck you are pretending, its literally just reptuation 2.0

    thats like saying "Hey they introduced azerite residium, what if in the next expansion instead of levels titan residium increased!"

    Like what are you even talking about.

    Renown is literally rep, it was made to remove the massive buffs of bonus rep from events and from being a human, meaning they know how fast everyone can go, instead of feeling forced to balance around those few people, aswell as being able to work on specific ranks instead of being stuck with the 6000/12,000/21,000

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Leveling hasn't meant anything in WoW in a very long time. We aren't gaining spells or new talents anymore, so what's the point in increasing the level cap?


    Anyways, I agree with @MrLachyG, 60 will likely be the new endgame level cap from now on, with each expansion being folded into the 10-50 leveling range when it's no longer current content like BFA will be, and every expansion squishing us down to 50 at the start.

    Again, levels don't mean anything anymore, so there's no reason not to just streamline and futureproof that process.
    Well i mean that is not true, we have always gained new spells and talents while leveling, while true in BFA and Legion we didnt gain new talents or spells like leveling, in wod we did, and in shadowlands we are getting new spells (not new talents though)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    What is with people and suggesting to have no more leveling/levels? Do they not understand this is a MMO?? It's bad enough we're reset to level 60 but to be stuck there is just horrible.
    Yeah, literally 1 day being 60, then being forced to 50, then get back to 60 again in the same day, and do this for every expansion would feel dumb as shit, but every like 4 or 5 expacs, getting reset back down is fine, its not great but its fine, but every expansion would just be annoying and confusing.
    "Im 60" "No your not your 50" "yes i am" "no the expansion just came out your 50, gotta level back up to 60"

    Same wityh the ilvl squish, fine every few expansions, squishes should happen every few, not EVERY expansion.
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  13. #13
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post

    Well i mean that is not true, we have always gained new spells and talents while leveling, while true in BFA and Legion we didnt gain new talents or spells like leveling, in wod we did, and in shadowlands we are getting new spells (not new talents though)
    The only reason we're getting "new" spells in Shadowlands is because they are giving us shit back that we used to have and never should have lost to begin with.



    Yeah, literally 1 day being 60, then being forced to 50, then get back to 60 again in the same day, and do this for every expansion would feel dumb as shit, but every like 4 or 5 expacs, getting reset back down is fine, its not great but its fine, but every expansion would just be annoying and confusing.
    "Im 60" "No your not your 50" "yes i am" "no the expansion just came out your 50, gotta level back up to 60"

    Same wityh the ilvl squish, fine every few expansions, squishes should happen every few, not EVERY expansion.
    I'd wager the overwhelming majority of people don't give a shit about that, because they aren't losing anything in a level or stat squish other than an arbitrary number.

    What is actually dumb as shit is borrowed powers, because you are actually losing things - spells, abilities, passives, procs - when those get taken away. If anything needs to be rare, if not stop happening entirely, it's the borrowed powers shit... It's an order of magnitude more jarring when those get stripped away than any level or stat squish could ever be, especially when the borrowed powers are being used by the devs to patch up their shoddy class design work... We all saw how well losing borrowed powers works when Legion ended and all our legendary effects stopped working, and half the specs just fell apart without them.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-08-09 at 12:21 AM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Squigglyo View Post
    Seems to me its VERY likely that 60 will always be max level.

    After Shadowlands, we become 50 again.
    Shadowlands gets the same treatment as the previous expansions and becomes an option for Chromie Time.

    Otherwise, the entire level squish, changes and Chromie Time logic was just created to be thrown away.
    It is already dumb that we revert from 120 to 50. It would be even more dumb to go 50-60 every expansion only to be deleveled to 50 each time.

    Just like I find it dumb we went from 900 something ilvl to 300 back up to 400 something only to go back down to 100 something in Shadowlands.

  15. #15
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    The only reason we're getting "new" spells in Shadowlands is because they are giving us shit back that we used to have and never should have lost to begin with.
    Not even close to true but ok.
    we are literally getting new spells, aswell as past teir set bonuses and azerite gear bonuses, while leveling in shadowlands.
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  16. #16
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Not even close to true but ok.
    we are literally getting new spells, aswell as past teir set bonuses and azerite gear bonuses, while leveling in shadowlands.
    That ain't exactly getting anything new then, is it?

    we are literally getting new spells
    No, we're getting old spells unpruned.

    aswell as past teir set bonuses
    Show me some of those that weren't just things that became passives in WoD or whatever and got stripped away in Legion.

    azerite gear bonuses
    Rare case of Blizzard realizing a spec would fall apart without some of it's current borrowed powers... Also not new, they are just taking a mandatory "option" we have now and baking it into the class...

    None of this is new, just readding old things.
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  17. #17
    its been in the game for 15 years under the name reputation

  18. #18
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    That ain't exactly getting anything new then, is it?



    No, we're getting old spells unpruned.



    Show me some of those that weren't just things that became passives in WoD or whatever and got stripped away in Legion.



    Rare case of Blizzard realizing a spec would fall apart without some of it's current borrowed powers... Also not new, they are just taking a mandatory "option" we have now and baking it into the class...

    None of this is new, just readding old things.
    We are getting old spells unpruned, plus new ones.
    We are also getting old set bonuses added baseline, aswell as talents becoming baseline, aswell as azerite gear becoming baseline or talents.
    What? most if not all of the azerite gear bonuses were not mandatory for the classes... what are you talking about.
    Also funny, getting a spell we did not have before, as it came from gear, and making it baseline... HYMMMMMM that sounds like a new thing.
    Among many talents becoming baseline.

    (There is more of these coming)
    Warlock
    Destro:
    Summon Infernal: Your Infernal awakening deals 150% additional damage on impact.
    Havoc: Havoc lasts 2 seconds longer.
    Rain of fire: Rain of fire deals 30% additional damage.
    Demo:
    Summon Demonic Tyrant: Summoning your Demonic Tyrant instantly generates 5 soul shards.
    Call dreadstalkers: Reduces the cast time of Call Dreadstalkers by 0.5 seconds, and teaches your dreadstalkers how to pursue targets faster.
    Fel Firebolt: Teaches your wild imps how to spend 20% less energy when casting fel firebolt.
    Aff:
    Shadow Embrace: Shadow bolt and haunt apply Shadow's embrace, increasing your damage dealt to the target by 3% for 12 sec. Stacks up to 3 times.
    Corruption: Corruption now instantly deals 152 damage.
    Unstable Affliction: Unstable Afflictions duration is increased by 5 seconds.

    Warrior
    Fury:
    Recklessness: Duration increased by 2 sec.
    Execute: Damage increased by 15%
    Arms:
    Die by the sword: Cooldown reduced by 60 sec.
    Sweeping strikes: Duration increased by 3 sec.
    Protection:
    Avatar: Generates 10 more rage.
    Shield wall: Reduces damage taken by an additional 10%

    Hunter
    BM:
    (Nothing)
    Marksmanship:
    (Nothing)
    Survival:
    (Nothing)


    Mage
    Fire:
    Flamestrike: Damage increased by 15%
    Pyroblast: Deals an additional 100 fire damage over 6 sec.
    Combustion: Duration increased by 2 sec.
    Frost:
    Blizzard: Damage increased by 15%.
    Cold Snap: Cooldown reduced by 30 sec.
    Icy Veins: Duration increased by 3 sec.
    Arcane:
    Arcane Barrage: Arcane Barrage grants you 2% of your max mana per arcane charge spent.
    Presence of mind: Arcane blast can be cast instantly 1 additional time.
    Arcane power: Duration increased by 5 sec.

    Rogue
    Subtlety:
    Shadow Vault: Finishing move- 35 energy + 1-5 combo points. Finsihing move that leaps you into the air, sprays shuriken at up to 8 nearby targets dealing phsyical damage. 1 point= 20 damage, 2 points= 40 damage, 3 points= 60 damage, 4 points= 80 damage, 5 points= 100 damage.
    Shuriken Storm: Shuriken Storm critical strikes apply find weakness for 6 sec.
    Shadow vault: Shadow vault now deals additional shadow damage to targets affected by your find weakness.
    Assassination:
    Improved Poisons: While stealth is active, your attacks have a 100% chance to apply your active lethal and non-lethal poisons.
    Shiv: Shiv now also increases your nature damage done against the target by 20% for 9 sec.
    Outlaw:
    Blade Flurry: Blade Flurry now instantly strikes up to 5 nearby targets for 650 physical damage.

    Priest
    Holy:
    (Nothing)
    Shadow:
    (Nothing)
    Discipline:
    (Nothing)

    Paladin
    Ret:
    (Nothing)
    Prot:
    (Nothing)
    Holy:
    (Nothing)


    Monk
    WW:
    (Nothing)
    MW:
    Expel Harm: Expel Harm can be cast during soothing mist, and heals the monk and their soothing mist target.
    BM:
    Clash: 8-30 yd range, instant, 30 sec cooldown. You and the target charge each other, meeting halfway then rooting all targets within 6 yards for 4 sec.
    Touch of death: Touch of death reduces delayed stagger damage by 200% of damage dealt.
    Zen meditation: Zen meditation is no longer cancelled by moving.

    Druid
    Balance:
    Starfall: Casting Starfall extends the duration of active moonfires and sunfires by 4 sec.
    Feral:
    (Nothing)
    Guardian:
    Frenzied Regeneration: Frenzied Regeneration increases all healing received by 20%.
    Restoration:
    Innervate: If you cast innervate on somebody else, you gain its effect at 50% effectiveness.
    Regrowth: Regrowth's initial heal has a 40% increased chance for a critical effect if the target is already affected by regrowth.
    Ironbark: Ironbark increases healing from your heal over time effects by 20%.
    Natures Swiftness: instant, 1 min cooldown. Your next regrowth, rebirth, or entangling roots is instant, free, castable in all forms, and heals for an additional 100%.

    Shaman
    Elemental:
    (Nothing)
    Enhancement:
    Chain Lightning: Each target hit by chain lightning reduces the cooldown of crash lightning by 1.0 sec.
    Restoration:
    (Nothing)

    Demon Hunter
    Havoc:
    Metamorphosis: When you activate Metamorphosis, the cooldown of eye beam and blade dance is immediately reset.
    Vengeance:
    (Nothing)

    Death Knight
    Blood:
    Heart Strike: Increases damage done by 20%.
    Vampiric Blood: Increases all healing and absorbs by 5%, and duration by 2 sec.
    Blood tap: Instant, 1 min recharge. COnsumes the essence around you to generate 1 rune. Recharge time reduced by 2 sec whenever a bone shield charge is consumed. Max 2 charges.
    Unholy:
    Summon Gargoyle: The Gargoyle gains 1% increased damage for every 2 runic power you spend.
    Scourge Strike: Increases damage done by 20%.
    Dark Transformation: Dark Transformation grants your ghoul 100% energy.
    Frost:
    Obliterate: Increases damage done by 20%
    Empowered Rune Weapon: Reduces the cooldown by 15 sec.
    Killing Machine: Your next Obliterate also deals frost damage.
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2020-08-09 at 01:03 AM.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    No, we're getting old spells unpruned.
    Yeah, damn it sure was awesome during Legion when DH's had those cool spells called Sinful brand, The Hunt, Fodder to the Flame and Elysian Decree. Running Maw of Souls with those spell was super fun.
    /s

  20. #20
    Immortal Schattenlied's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lindon View Post
    Yeah, damn it sure was awesome during Legion when DH's had those cool spells called Sinful brand, The Hunt, Fodder to the Flame and Elysian Decree. Running Maw of Souls with those spell was super fun.
    /s
    DH are one class out of 12 that are getting new baseline spells, and they are a special case due to not having anything to get unrpuned.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2020-08-09 at 02:12 AM.
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