Torghast in Beta, Growing Concerns

[Motso]

How do so many people so consistently hate every new development but still stick with the game. Torghast just looks like they smushed mage tower and battlefronts together sort of. Who gives a shit. It is an attempt at a new style of content. It may well fail but we can't know for sure until the real pressure test of live.
If you hate the company and its decisions so much, stop playing. But I know damn well that almost all of you whinging about it will still be subbed any playing come launch.

[Osmeric]

How do so many people so consistently hate every new development but still stick with the game.

90+% of players have not, in fact, stuck with the game.

[Shinrael]

You are trying to defend what appears to be the future version of warfronts. Content designed to be almost fail proof. So far on beta the tower is comically easy. I wasn't in early enough to fight the hard tower but much like dungeon testing I suspect it was overtuned for testing purposes.

It is gonna be islands again but with a better power vendor.

1) I am not trying and I am certainly not defending anything. I explained to a forum member that arbitrary numbers are just that - arbitrary numbers.
2) But since you involve me in the for and against Torghast discussion, let me give you my two cents too: It will be fun for me. I will love this feature in terms of gameplay mechanics and immersion. Just like how I could determine that Islands and Warfronts seem boring from the moment they were announced, I could also determine what I will thoroughly enjoy Torghast as it is exactly the kind of content I like. Please, do try your best to find arguments against this....
3) As for the difficulty - that is a yet-to-be-seen point. If it isn't challenging, it will be a problem indeed. Blizzard however did express their awareness that it is not challenging right now and did state that their design philosophy also agrees it should be more challenging in one of the interviews/dev watercoolers. So once again as with the Shadow changes - Blizzard tells you changes/improvements are coming. You can deny that and end up being correct if Blizzard for some reason... lied? Or you can deny that and end up wrong if Blizzard manages to implement their vision for it properly. Mage Tower was an enjoyable challenge. Horrific Visions were an enjoyable challenge before I ran them for the 100th time. Treasure Trove of the Thunder King scenario was also a lovely challenge which I never got bored of. Withered Training Scenario was a nice challenge in the beginning before I had unlocked everything, but since it took so long, it was nice to feel my progress.

So to sum it up: Blizzard has managed to create challenging and enjoyable (for me) solo content similar to Torghast at least 4 times in the past. I see no reason to doubt they will succeed in making Torghast just as challenging and enjoyable. And I have no idea what Islands and Warfronts have to do with all of this, an entirely different type of content

[Krakan]

How do so many people so consistently hate every new development but still stick with the game. Torghast just looks like they smushed mage tower and battlefronts together sort of. Who gives a shit. It is an attempt at a new style of content. It may well fail but we can't know for sure until the real pressure test of live.
If you hate the company and its decisions so much, stop playing. But I know damn well that almost all of you whinging about it will still be subbed any playing come launch.

I know a lot of people who were/are excited for challenging solo content like mage towers. This news has not gone over well.

[Kellorion]

This jews has not gone over well.

excuse you, fuck you say?

[Specialka]

They should do a easy part for the legendary components that even the LFR crowd can do and a hardcore part with tons of cosmetic rewards. There, fixed it.

[Krakan]

excuse you, fuck you say?

Fun of spell check.

[Soon-TM]

They do the same thing people did in vanilla if they hated raiding but wanted Sulfuras, suck it up and get the job done.

Chances are that the folks chasing Sulfuras in Vanilla were a quite small group to begin with. And even then, the grind for Sulfuras was a one time thing - once you got it, you were done. Torghast, on the other hand, is supposed to last for the entirety of the expansion... but so far it might easily end as islands 2.0, i.e. people running it as few times as possible in order to get their leggos - and then ignored forever and ever.

Except (maybe) by collectors.

[dcc626]

90+% of players have not, in fact, stuck with the game.

but they have continued to post garbage anywhere people will listen

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They should do a easy part for the legendary components that even the LFR crowd can do and a hardcore part with tons of cosmetic rewards. There, fixed it.

thats pretty much the plan.

[zaxlor]

Torghast is the content that I am most excited for and watching Preach’s video made me somewhat concerned with the direction that they are taking.

I don't care if it is endless or not. I just want it to be challenging and role-agnostic. There needs to be a long-term plan that keeps players engaged even after 9.2 and 9.3.

Any choice made during a Torghast run should be meaningful. Picking up mastery is not a real choice. Picking up specific rewards from the vendor risks trivializing any real challenges it has. I want bad players to fail and bad builds to fail.

It is extremely important for Torghast to be appealing to non-raiders as well. People often say shit about casual players but without them the game will die.

Right now casuals don't care about Warfronts/Islands because they are boring and easy. People would rather play classic and beat Onyxia while naked than do Warfronts. That's how bad it is. I just don't want blizz to turn Torghast into wasted content.

My feelings too.

From the previews, I thought Torghast would be more like the Mage Tower from Legion - Challenging, but do-able if you crafted the Legendaries found within. I'd thought it'd be more like Darkest Dungeon, or Dead Cells. An actual Rogue-lite! Now, after watching the Preach video, it seems that Blizzard equates failure to people un-subbing.

I'm still going to get Shadowlands though - I've been playing to re-roll on a new server with my nephew and experience the leveling revamp. I'm currently subbed and playing WoW Classic anyways. But I don't think i'll be spending much time at max level playing the thing that appealed to me the most in previews, if the end product is so damn watered down!

[goldentforce]

They should do a easy part for the legendary components that even the LFR crowd can do and a hardcore part with tons of cosmetic rewards. There, fixed it.

That is the general idea but the issue is execution as of now. In the current form difficulty only comes from starting at a high base floor because you do not have powers(i.e starting at floor 24). The problem is the base floor is pretty much a gear/rng start thing and the run currently because of the power of a broker needs you to have enough gear and luck to progress 3 floors and reach the broker. That is not very fun for a rogue-like experience. Sure you can amp the difficulty early in some rogue-likes, but a smooth difficulty increase usually spiking around the first boss is something I would like. Hard->easy->trivial is basically the current path and the issue is sort of covered up by runs stopping at 18 floors, but this is a format that would get boring to a lot imo and I would like a smoother difficulty curve and brokers to be changed to be a lot more variance in power/guaranteed power. The 6 floor format for people who do not care about the content or difficulty is perfectly fine easy 20 minutes in and out and fun enough with the powers, in all its okay. Most of my issues are focused at the 18 floor cosmetic runs.

[FelPlague]

Remember when Torghast was supposed to have 40 floors? Yeah, I love cut content.

I mean in technicality it has FAR MORE then 40 floors, but yeah sure "cut content"

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You are trying to defend what appears to be the future version of warfronts. Content designed to be almost fail proof. So far on beta the tower is comically easy. I wasn't in early enough to fight the hard tower but much like dungeon testing I suspect it was overtuned for testing purposes.

It is gonna be islands again but with a better power vendor.

There is no way to make the tower hard, that is the issue, and why its just random fun. far better then islands and warfronts, cause it has clas synergies, i have spent hundreds, easily a thousand hours in torghast so far.

there was the heroic mode, which was hard, for all of 2 floors, which took about an hour, but then you got enough powers the rest of the 73 floors became piss easy, there is no way to make it hard, while also making it fun, so they give people that option to "go into hardmode if you really want" in the endless mode. Hard tower was not overtuned, what it was is starting at a super high level, without any powers, the further you get into the tower the stronger enemies get, so if you start later, with no powers, it starts harder, but you very quickly get a broken combo and go.

you are trying to pretend something is shit when it is the furthest from it.

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And the wow player base, by and large, has proven time and again anything with difficulty they run away from.

As for Torghast being 18 floors. It isn't. It is actually almost infinite with 18-floor stretches. You done the 18th floor? You start again at floor 14 and go to floor 32. Done that? Start over at floor 28 and go up to floor 46

^^^^ Andf this is where the difficulty comes from, you can start further and further into torghast with 0 powers, as it being legit endless felt like shit, having to sit down for 4 hours to do 75 floors, when 2 of the floors alone were only the first 2, it felt horrid.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

These are not mass market games, and WoW was never built on a player base of the kind that likes the very difficult games. Moreover, in an MMO, your fails are on display before everyone else, which makes it even worse.

So, go ahead and disagree, but I think you're clearly wrong.
.

yea letz pretend that all the competitive pvp games like league of legends, fortnite, CSgo, Dota2, Valorat and stracraft2 are not the most iconic and sucsessfull games that exist Right now /facepalm

[FelPlague]

Torghast is the content that I am most excited for and watching Preach’s video made me somewhat concerned with the direction that they are taking.

I don't care if it is endless or not. I just want it to be challenging and role-agnostic. There needs to be a long-term plan that keeps players engaged even after 9.2 and 9.3.

Any choice made during a Torghast run should be meaningful. Picking up mastery is not a real choice. Picking up specific rewards from the vendor risks trivializing any real challenges it has. I want bad players to fail and bad builds to fail.

It is extremely important for Torghast to be appealing to non-raiders as well. People often say shit about casual players but without them the game will die.

Right now casuals don't care about Warfronts/Islands because they are boring and easy. People would rather play classic and beat Onyxia while naked than do Warfronts. That's how bad it is. I just don't want blizz to turn Torghast into wasted content.

1. there is no real way for them to make it challenging other then you yourself making it challenging by starting at later floors, which as preach said if you watched his content fully "Is only hard for the first 2 floors, but then the rest is a cakewalk"

2. it is role agnostic, very much so, each role gets very specific talents that make each spec have their own super wacky playstyle, only one currently feeling a bit limited is the druid, for obvious reason. however having infinite range starfall, and starfall applying moonfire, and moonfire ticks going 90% faster, and every 20 ticks calling down a full moon. Was pretty fucking fun, but piss easy.

3. i love your right out made up argument "people rather beat onyxia naked then do warfronts" you really think ANYONE went "hey warfronts are up... nah instead im gunna go fight onyxia naked" You really think that? cause i would think the playerbase that is normally doing warfronts, are not the same that would be doing onyxia naked.

funny cause raid groups doing onyxia naked just shows how boring of a fight onyxia is, that they have to mix things up to make it challenging. i mean i rather do warfronts then onyxia, but i guess i rather do onyxia naked then warfronts, so idk mate.

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yea letz pretend that all the competitive pvp games like league of legends, fortnite, CS, Dota2, stracraft2 are not the most iconic and sucsessfull games that exist Right now /facepalm

None of those games are difficult.
League of legends is not difficult
fortnite is not difficult
counter strike is not difficult
dota 2 is not difficult
starcraft 2 is not difficult

what is their appeal is the high end, its the pro gamers.

pokemon is not difficult, but would you say "HEY POKEMON IS BIG CAUSE ITS DIFFICULT, LOOK AT ALL THESE PRO GAMERS!"
No its big because its fucking pokemon, and their competition is difficult yes, but their competition is not big CAUSE its difficult, its big cause these are legit pros.

it is not hard to hop onto LoL and curbstomp bots.
it is not hard to just win fortnite in randoms
it is not hard to beat up bots in CS
it is not hard to curbstomp bots in dota 2
it is not difficult to play the starcraft campaign

What makes these games appealing is their competitiveness, not their difficulty.

Games like Bloodborne, sekiro, and Dark souls are known for their difficulty, but they are the outliers, many games try to do "hard" but it doesent really work, only those who appeal to the minority "hard core" playerbase can hold on, as gamers are a huge group, and even if you make a game for only 5% of them, that is still hundreds of millions.

Competition is not inherently difficult, 2 idiot kids playing pokemon against each other is competition, they can have a blast and compete, but that's not difficult.
Those games are not big for their difficulty, they are big for their good gameplay, and good competition.

[Osmeric]

yea letz pretend that all the competitive pvp games like league of legends, fortnite, CSgo, Dota2, Valorat and stracraft2 are not the most iconic and sucsessfull games that exist Right now /facepalm

PvP and PvE are different.

[shadowmatrix]

Chances are that the folks chasing Sulfuras in Vanilla were a quite small group to begin with. And even then, the grind for Sulfuras was a one time thing - once you got it, you were done. Torghast, on the other hand, is supposed to last for the entirety of the expansion... but so far it might easily end as islands 2.0, i.e. people running it as few times as possible in order to get their leggos - and then ignored forever and ever.

Except (maybe) by collectors.

Several classes wanted the weapon and it was not a single trip raid drop. It required farming for the mats and a rep grind to get the water needed to access Ragnaros.

People who like something run it a lot, people who don't like it run the bare minimum. Same as before.

[Echocho]

The changes you see are because of player feedback. The tryhard high end community isn't the only one Blizzard listen to, there's a majority out there too.

[Alcsaar]

They do the same thing people did in vanilla if they hated raiding but wanted Sulfuras, suck it up and get the job done.

Vanilla was a long time ago and the first version of a game that has progressed since then to be more inclusive and considerate of every ones play styles ; that's a horrible comparison.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

None of those games are difficult.
League of legends is not difficult
fortnite is not difficult
counter strike is not difficult
dota 2 is not difficult
starcraft 2 is not difficult

what is their appeal is the high end, its the pro gamers.

pokemon is not difficult, but would you say "HEY POKEMON IS BIG CAUSE ITS DIFFICULT, LOOK AT ALL THESE PRO GAMERS!"
No its big because its fucking pokemon, and their competition is difficult yes, but their competition is not big CAUSE its difficult, its big cause these are legit pros.

it is not hard to hop onto LoL and curbstomp bots.
it is not hard to just win fortnite in randoms
it is not hard to beat up bots in CS
it is not hard to curbstomp bots in dota 2
it is not difficult to play the starcraft campaign

What makes these games appealing is their competitiveness, not their difficulty.

Games like Bloodborne, sekiro, and Dark souls are known for their difficulty, but they are the outliers, many games try to do "hard" but it doesent really work, only those who appeal to the minority "hard core" playerbase can hold on, as gamers are a huge group, and even if you make a game for only 5% of them, that is still hundreds of millions.

Competition is not inherently difficult, 2 idiot kids playing pokemon against each other is competition, they can have a blast and compete, but that's not difficult.
Those games are not big for their difficulty, they are big for their good gameplay, and good competition.

did you master any of those games? i for played challenger season 7-8 in lol and competed on pokemon turnaments back in 2010 and know how hard it is to out smart some one in pokemon 3 turns in atvance or time every skill the enemy champion has incudung crd wihle also knowing where the enemy jungler is parting while also keping up perfect cs while trading with your eneny laner? i bet you dont you wouldnt type this bull shit if you did

playing aginst bot dont count dont start a strawman and try to imply that you bested the game while beating bot

[Elias01]

Vanilla was a long time ago and the first version of a game that has progressed since then to be more inclusive and considerate of every ones play styles ; that's a horrible comparison.

Yeah thats why this game sucks and calssic kick ass and have far more stable playerbase.