LFR and whether it still has a place in WoW

[Kathranis]

LFR is there for one reason only: to let casual players experience raid content without having to pug or join a guild.

And there are many, many of those players.

[Shaetha]

I enjoyed it when normal and heroic difficulties had unique armor sets and not tinted recolors.

There has never been a time where heroic difficulty existed and the armor wasn't a recolor of something else in the game.

The raid difficulties are exactly as rewarding as they always were. They're just no longer the only game in town. You cannot simultaneously complain about raid or die and then complain about other routes of gearing added to mitigate that problem.

Also, no incentive to play harder content? You get more and better gear. That's the same incentive it's always been. It literally hasn't changed, and there has always been ways to get gear "above your level" even though gear has never mattered if you don't do anything with it. The only reason you complain is because you don't feel special. I've got some bad news for you: nothing in WoW has been a mark of anything but time investment unless you're directly competing. No gear is actually hard to get. Especially in a world where people are so aware of people selling runs.

Literally the only complaint you lodge that isn't complaining for the sake of complaining is about the game being raid or die. Which was changed in Legion. Mythic+ is undeniably popular and here to stay. The stuff from other content is here to stay.

Previous to that there was just nothing. The things you liked are still there, so I'm forced to conclude you just don't like the game any more and are making up any justification to make it the game's fault you burned out. Which true, it is, You burn out on any game eventually, but the solution to that is not removing things from the game. The solution to that is to play something else, so, once again, I ask, "Why are you playing a game you don't like?"

Mythic raids get 10 times as much effort in design as they're worth, and Raid Finder is how they justify that amount of effort. Either way, normal and heroic never had unique armor sets. The armor from heroic dungeons in Burning Crusade was recolors. The normal dungeons reused armor models(and a location!) from vanilla. That was before heroic raids were even a concept. I don't see you complaining about that. Is that because it doesn't fit your agenda? What about the first heroic raids, the armor sets from which were also recolors of each other and the pvp armor? That argument has literally never been true.

[Shaetha]

You believe large queue times is due to a lack of players queuing? What an interesting perspective.

It is for the wings that aren't relevant any more, but then again, that's always been true and is true in FFXIV as well for the things that aren't incentivized by roulettes, so adding that like it's a genuine complaint about BFA is dishonest. The queue times are instant if you triple queue on the current stuff, so the problem with the queue time on current content clearly isn't lack of players.

In then end, it's the same thing I've been telling people for years. The game is the game. You can play as much or as little as you want. It's not made for you, so There are going to be parts you don't like, and that's perfectly fine. No one is forcing you to play but you.

You have to put in work to make the things you like. Blizzard likes making mythic raids, but mythic raids don't make money compared to the effort they take to make. It's not a coincidence that raids started getting more complex and more difficult after raid finder came out. They suddenly didn't have to worry about top end engagement and could make the things they wanted.

[Omedon]

LFR is a mandatory part of modern WoW so long as any of the story is told in raids. Your normal PUGs May be smoother, but they’re still gated by community members not the game itself, and the game and its devs are who are paid for access to the core of the game (no, boosting services do not count). So long as that core story goes through raids, a lone raid leader can’t and shouldn’t be trusted to enable or deny that access.

If you don’t like LFR or don’t need LFR don’t use it, but it’s keeping raids relevant and developed.

[CalamityHeart]

Some of the recent replies in this thread make me think that the people who think they hate LFR don't actually hate LFR. They just hate other players who use it. It's a community issue. And their solution to the "problem" of LFR is to make it less social, and the loot you get from it even more free.

Say what you will about the fraction of the playerbase who uses it, but LFR is as close to true raiding as queued content can get, and any solution like this "Cinematic Mode" or "Solo Mode" shit that dilutes that and brings players who have to use LFR further away from the true raiding experience, is not an ideal solution. That doesn't fix LFR. That destroys a part of the raiding community.

People see bad players and want them to suffer, purely for the sake of them being bad. People see that a large number of these bad players flock to LFR, and obviously they would, because LFR is amazingly accessible, and any system that's amazingly accessible is going to attract a larger number of players below the average skill level. And so to these toxic people, the solution is clear: destroy LFR, or find some sneaky way to suggest destroying it without actually suggesting to destroy it, in order to not appear toxic.

The real solution is that there is no solution. You can't cut out the bottom of the barrel, and in terms of raiding, LFR is as bottom as it gets. But that's not a bad thing, because LFR made raiding a much bigger barrel than it used to be. Any problem you currently have with LFR's community can be solved by just rising above them. I think I said this in a previous post, but gutting LFR isn't going to make people get better and move up. You get better and move up. Or find some way to move away. But stop worrying about LFR. It's a toxic waste of your time.

[MoanaLisa]

It is for the wings that aren't relevant any more, but then again, that's always been true and is true in FFXIV as well for the things that aren't incentivized by roulettes

This will make people nuts but the FFXIV thing with roulettes suggests that LFR could have a timewalking component if people want to run older raids as a group.

[goldlock]

This will make people nuts but the FFXIV thing with roulettes suggests that LFR could have a timewalking component if people want to run older raids as a group.

I rather it didn't. I was forced to bare witness to lfr molten core. Those " players " are unprepared for that level of combat.

[Quaght]

@CalamityHeart

This is it right here. The people complaining want to raiding to be an elite, exclusive club only accessible by the best of the best. But they don't want to actually say it because other players would know that they are Bad People.

If. You. Don't. Like. LFR. Don't. Join. LFR. It's that effing simple.

[Kaykay]

LFR never had a place in wow, it's the pinnacle of instanced solo mmo content. Never having to group with real players, just sign up and /follow, no need to learn tactics, no need to make friends.
While having the detrimental effect of increasing the ilvl gap in each patch, since normal/heroic isn't enough, now we need 4 ilvl gaps thats large enough to warrant doing the harder content, meaning instead of each patch increase ilvl by 15x2 (normal/heroic), now ilvl increases by 15x4 (lfr/normal/heroic/mythic) meaning gear has a hard time staying relevant as the patches progress, and catchup gear becomes a clutch that everyone has to hold onto.

[goldlock]

@CalamityHeart

This is it right here. The people complaining want to raiding to be an elite, exclusive club only accessible by the best of the best. But they don't want to actually say it because other players would know that they are Bad People.

If. You. Don't. Like. LFR. Don't. Join. LFR. It's that effing simple.

Agreed but lfr must never again offer power tempting to any who run above mythic 0. For the sake of all it must be banished to the phantom zone.

[kaminaris]

I had a good laugh at this. "Then remove gear incentive from mythic too, then the only people who play it will be there for the challenge, then we'll really see how many will do it based on that alone."

Actually I would prefer it this way to be honest. LFR may keep the gear but remove it from mythic.

[The Butt Witch]

Where else can I afk with my alts and still get gear?

[Advent]

Actually I would prefer it this way to be honest. LFR may keep the gear but remove it from mythic.

I'm not surprised some people would like it. Not sure it would be received well though.

[Twdft]

Its just a path of least resistance for players to go and grab gear without putting in any effort, and I dont think its good for the game in its current state.

How exactly would the game be better without LfR?

Players who now go least resistance and grab gear without putting in any effort in LfR will never apply to any organized raiding if you take LfR away from them. So what will be better?

[Raelbo]

I don't know why people still queue LFR. It isn't to do anything fun at least.

Different people find different things fun.

I suspect for most it's just to finish some quest or maybe to get a quick look at the bosses before heading into normal.

I can't speak for everyone. But I can share my own experiences - which likely are shared by some people.

Generally I will have a reason to queue for LFR. Those reasons could include

• possible gear upgrade (hasn't been true this tier),
• doing a quest objective (mainly on alts that I don't raid with),
• a way of getting the 600 corrupted mementos while I was still progressing my cloak
• the Call to Arms satchel bonus

None of these things on their own ever make me feel compelled to do LFR, but if I'm not particularly busy with anything else, they can be enough to get me to queue.

But here's the most important part: When I do LFR, I tend to have fun. Mostly it's just about killing bosses in a chilled and stress free environment which can be a nice change of pace from doing more challenging content. As I see it, the amount of engagement you get out of LFR is largely up to the individual. Just because success is not always contingent on whether I handle mechanics successfully and perform my role well, I still get a sense of satisfaction out of doing so. And in some fights, success in LFR does come down to some of the players performing well, and when you're one of those people, it also feels pretty good.

[Kaver]

Actually I would prefer it this way to be honest. LFR may keep the gear but remove it from mythic.

Why do you hate mythic raiders so much?

[MrLachyG]

If LFR's purpose is to see the raid, then why do they give people incentive to run in multiple times? The gear sucks in comparison to m0 and world quest rewards.

um are you sure about that? pretty sure m0 and lfr give out the same ilvl gear, and world quest rewards don't give out anything close to that. the emissaries do, but only if you hit a certain ilvl threshold - which those who only do LFR and nothing else never reach

[Raelbo]

Agreed but lfr must never again offer power tempting to any who run above mythic 0. For the sake of all it must be banished to the phantom zone.

Sort of.

I don't think anyone would argue against the idea that LFR should never offer power that would make it mandatory for people running above mythic 0. The problem is that some players have a very poor grasp of what is meant by the term mandatory and will consider any content in which there is even the tiniest of possibility of even the smallest upgrade to be mandatory. Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, at some point players have to take responsibility for making objectively poor decisions. There needs to be a balance between keeping the gear from LFR sane, while still keeping it appealing for its target audience.

Quite frankly, the amount of pandering to elitists that has been done by neutering LFR gear is ridiculous. It hasn't been mandatory to use it for anyone for many years, and those who still persist on peddling the notion that LFR gear needs to be further nerfed until the gear is no longer useful for anyone should dismissed with the contempt that they deserve.

[Balbuto]

what if they don't want to "learn the game"? not everyone wan'ts to be a raider. how about instead you nag blizzard to stop trying to force players into crap they don't want to do by having the story being a part of it?.

Mmorpg endgame = raids and pvp. if they dont want to learn the game they should play something else. like me for instance 12/12 mythic raider but good damn I suck at pvp and I avoid it like the plaugue. if they want the story they can just look it up.

[Glorious Leader]

Sort of.

I don't think anyone would argue against the idea that LFR should never offer power that would make it mandatory for people running above mythic 0. The problem is that some players have a very poor grasp of what is meant by the term mandatory and will consider any content in which there is even the tiniest of possibility of even the smallest upgrade to be mandatory. Sorry, but as far as I am concerned, at some point players have to take responsibility for making objectively poor decisions. There needs to be a balance between keeping the gear from LFR sane, while still keeping it appealing for its target audience.

Quite frankly, the amount of pandering to elitists that has been done by neutering LFR gear is ridiculous. It hasn't been mandatory to use it for anyone for many years, and those who still persist on peddling the notion that LFR gear needs to be further nerfed until the gear is no longer useful for anyone should dismissed with the contempt that they deserve.

It is ridiculous to be quite honest. LFR is essentially worthless and this was all done to discourage participation by raiders to the detriment of basically everybody else. Now theyve decided to do the same to M+. Youll notice that they never take that same battle axe to raiding though. Its fucking sacrosanct.

The mandatory or forced to participate argument is fucking absurd on its face. Even if one takes it seriously however youll notice that the logic is never evenly applied. From someone who say does m+ exclusively, they would be well within their rights to argue that raiding is too lucrative and essential to pushing higher keys ergo its mandatory and should be gutted or nerfed of its rewards lest m+ players feel put out. Not gonna happen of course but its a sound argument to make it you accept the logic that any content which provides any form of power increase must be leveraged to the maximum for progression.