Horde Reparations

[Venziir]

I think you should deliver proofs of that. And if you look at wowpedia - Stormheim war prelude for war. Calia in Arathi war prelude, killing goblins near the sword was prelude. And time of imprisonment of Talanji and Zul is nowhere explained.
Yes, Horde burned this new tree (20 years old, remember?). But do not expose it so Horde was first to action.

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And what instigated mistrust? Genn, Jaina and Anduin in Arathi.

And for clarifying things. I am not Sylvanas fan.

My proof is the word of the actual game designers. Also, you keep clinging on the the part about Talanji and Zul, which is odd, since that takes place AFTER the War of the Thorns.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

You say that Alliance has no blood on their hands? All that actions provoke burning. Or you deny that?

That's not what you are saying.


You are saying that these acts started the Fourth War.


I am saying that you are wrong. So are others posters.


Stay on topic.


Perhaps you should go back and re-edit your initial posts in saying "these acts lead to the Fourth War" instead of trying to condescend other users... while being wrong.

[Dancaris]

That's not what you are saying.


You are saying that these acts started the Fourth War.


I am saying that you are wrong. So are others posters.


Stay on topic.

If some guys punch you in a face several times and you retalate, maybe more agressive than it should, who is the agressor?

[Varodoc]

If some guys punch you in a face several times and you retalate, maybe more agressive than it should, who is the agressor?

A more appropriate comparison would be if someone punched you in the face and you decided to incinerate them along with their entire family while they are sleeping.

[Lolites]

They should, even if very small ones just for the gesture. Otherwise in 3-4 generations you gonna have thousands of alliance "patriots" demanding munny.

well reparations are "compensation for war damage paid by a defeated state" so there is a bit of issue of not having defeated state... as both sides AGREED ON ARMISTICE, so nobody lost, nobody won...
they could help with rebuilding a bit, but i would say most alliance would rather not see horde around after war

[KOUNTERPARTS]

If some guys punch you in a face several times and you retalate, maybe more agressive than it should, who is the agressor?

Once again, irrelevant to your points that were made.


Why do you keep trying to change the topic?

[Dancaris]

A more appropriate comparison would be if someone punched you in the face and you decided to incinerate them along with their entire family while they are sleeping.

Its wrong, i am not denying that. But action starts when some fist comes to face and not when gas is spreading.

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Once again, irrelevant to your points that were made.


Why do you keep trying to change the topic?

just for comparison. I said that Alliance actions provoke war, not some bitch mind. Yes, Horde starts actions that are considered start of 4th war. But Alliance actions that provoke that burning was first.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

just for comparison. I said that Alliance actions provoke war, not some bitch mind. Yes, Horde starts actions that are considered start of 4th war. But Alliance actions that provoke that burning was first.

Just for comparison:

Alliance: Starts war, kills Zandalari, destroy their fleet, tortures innocents. "We want reparations for winning a war!"

Wrong.


Then followed up by:

Oh, my sweet summer child. 4th war starts when Alliance kills goblins near the Sword. Then imprison Talanji and Zul for nothing.

Wrong again.


So you aren't just making weird comparisons about what deserves retaliation or what actions provoke what. At this point I don't even know if you are aware of what points you are even trying to make.

[Ielenia]

One, a mind controlled Legion agent killed Varian's father when she didn't want to, his mother was killed by fellow humans.
Two, the orcs had already fallen into a lethargy and were barely capable of feeding themselves, let alone warrior.
Three, there is such a thing as mind control in this universe. But that's the Alliance's problem. Forsaken killed innocent people while mindless Scourge, kill them all. Orcs killed innocent people while under demonic bloodlust, never trust them again. Weird that the Horde can understand that actions performed under diminished capacity aren't what the being is really like, but the Alliance can't.

• It was still an orc from the fel Horde. And I simply used the death of Varian's parents to establish that the orcs didn't say in internment camps "for generations".
• And as far as the humans know such lethargy could be just permanent and, if left alone, the orcs could start rampaging again.
• Except that the humans at the time did not know of "demonic corruption". What they saw of the orcs, rampaging and pillaging through their settlements, was all they knew of the orcs.

[Florena]

The internment camps were around for 'one' generation. Enough for Thrall who was a baby at the end of the second war to grow into adulthood. I'm with Ielenia on that one there's no way to stretch that out into generations plural even if you disagree with the camps as a solution of what to do with the orcs after the Second War. One generation of orcs was raised in camps, and you still had people like Grom and Doomhammer alive when the camps were liberated.

[Ielenia]

There is no assumption on my part. The orcs were desperate. Guld'dan convinces them precisely because they were losing, it is literally spelled out before them, the war had brought the clans to ruin and they had only one option. There is no assumption whatsoever:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=levTG8D4Joc

Gul'dan's words and taunts are not exactly a trustworthy source. Or are you going to trust that same Gul'dan's words when he said that Varian died whimpering and begging for his life, when we faced him atop the nightwell?

None of the other orcs in that cinematic showed "desperation". And as for Kilrogg, the guy had a vision of his death, so it could be argued that he drank that blood because the vision required him to be fel-corrupted.

About mannoroth and the fountain of life: Knowing there is a demon curse means absolutely nothing, it does not mean demon blood nor it means that they would lose their free will. In fact, you ignored the cutscene at the end of the questline when Grom discover what he has done. He believed himslef free up to that point.

I think it's very naive to think that a demon curse would leave you with your own free will unaltered. Grom was very much aware of the curse, that the "rage" would overtake them again, as indicated by the nameless orc, and Grom not only dismisses him, but welcomes the rage and bloodlust.

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You just repeated after me that Khadgar closed the portal. Whatever game plan you had for repeating something I said, you seem to have abandoned it instantly.

They couldn't bring the orcs back to Draenor because the portal was destroyed. It would take some logistics to bring all the orcs to the portal which would only give opportunity for more orcs to come out of said portal.

And also: sending the orcs back to their world was not the safest alternative, considering that, for as far as the humans knew, nothing would prevent the orcs from invading again. One portal was built, then another could be built as well.

Let's pay no attention to them being tricked by Garrosh and his gift of vision that he conveniently cut short.

Yes, let's not. Because it's immaterial to the fact of the orcs doing the exact same atrocities as their "fel corrupted" kind did, down to the point of cutting down the draenei and using their souls to power their portal.

If you ignore Gul'dan mocking Grom for bringing the Orcs to ruin, which spurned Kilrogg to become the first AU Orc outside of the Shadow council to accept his "gift", sure.

Kilrogg did so because the vision of his death showed himself as a fel-corrupted orc, so that blood was something he had to drink.

Have humans ever been under Old God's direct control just because of the curse of flesh alone?

Orcs were never under "direct control" of the Legion, mind you.

[Syegfryed]

When they willingly accepted said drug in order to specifically commit atrocities and murder in the name of 'honor'? Um..yeah.

now cite where the orcs knew for sure what the drug was and what would cause to then,

[Minikin]

I was not referring to rapes when I said that.

Ah

No offense then I take my snarky comment back

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Maybe you should not spout things that are wrong like they're right and then defend your wrongness. He was a dungeon boss. You said he wasn't. You were at best ignorant and at worst straight up lying. It's really not hard to make an argument without saying things that aren't true.

Woooooooshhhhhhhh

[Shiza]

Ah yes. Because I pointed out Alliance fans will justify every heinous action the Alliance does that means I'm ok with atrocities. I'm not ok with atrocities. I'm just sick of the Alliance getting away with them but the Horde is ALWAYS held accountable. If the Alliance was actually held accountable for once, I wouldn't be as frustrated.

Actually, if we use the Internment Camps as an example, the Alliance was held accountable and not only was the person who oversaw them killed, Terenas decission to persue the rebelling Orcs instead of focussing on the plague was a factor which lead to not only the Downfall of Lordaeron but also Lordaeron, the strongest alliance nation after which the Alliance was also named, becoming a member of the Horde.

Name me one time when the alliance got an entire Horde nation for the wrong doings of the Horde?

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There is plenty of evidence to that. Mannoroth literally says that he is the voice inside their head and after he says that, grom CANNOT refuse any order from him, to the point that he praises his master and fight his best friend. The first horde was a puppet of the Burning Legion. Period. You are misrepresenting several story moments to make the argument work, EG: theramore was done by several races, including and elf and a goblin and a lot of the people that worked on it did not know what was going to happen, The BE and the goblin knew. Which night elf genocide, you will have to be more specific. No one here is saying that the orcs are innocent, in fact in lords of war, durotan's story is precisely about the bloodlust and fury of the orcs. But they also refused to join the iron horde and joined forces with the draenei in Talador. But the fact remains that they were controlled and manipulated by the burning legion and you are just painting them with a broad brush to serve your argument.

Yeah, but we also have a novel in which we see Groms point of view and his internal dialogues, with no indication that he has no agency. He even was able to control his bloodlust, unleash it when it was tactically opportune. And we are talking about this period of time when the Orcs where under legion control, not the time in Ashenvale. The PoVs in Beyond the Dark Portal actually paint the Orcs as well able to think for themselves and with agency. Not to forget that the second war and the destruction of Stormwind happened after Doomhammer took over the Horde and effectively ended the Legion Control. After that as well as the Draenei Genocide was basically Orcs following their cultural traditions and customs, which were always all about war as we learned in WoD.

The logic is simple, Lordaeron was part of the alliance, and the alliance allowed it. Not only that but Genn Greymane literally demanded their execution. The fact that the nation where the camps were located is long gone now is irrelevant, because the rest of the alliance allowed it. Hell they had internment camps in alterac mountains. Sa

So what? The Shadow Council was part of the Horde, so everything Gul'dan does is the fault of the Horde? The Mag'har became a member of the Horde, so the Iron Horde is all on the Horde? The fact is, not a single nation which is currently in the Alliance was involved in the internment camps. The nation which did them is nowadays a member of the Horde, so there is no logic in blaming the Alliance for the internment camps. The logic is as if the EU was expected to be held accountable by the UKs actions, despite the UK having left the EU.

If the Orcs have a problen with the internment camps and want an apology, they should go to the Forsaken. And more precisely, Calia Menethil. She is Terenas daughter, she claims her fathers throne, she is accountable.

[Mehrunes]

Gul'dan's words and taunts are not exactly a trustworthy source. Or are you going to trust that same Gul'dan's words when he said that Varian died whimpering and begging for his life, when we faced him atop the nightwell?

Did high ranking members of Alliance agree with Gul'dan's reasoning the way Kilrogg agreed with him on the state of the Iron Horde?

They couldn't bring the orcs back to Draenor because the portal was destroyed. It would take some logistics to bring all the orcs to the portal which would only give opportunity for more orcs to come out of said portal.

Which goddamn part of "Khadgar closed the portal only after the Second War was over" do you still not get after me saying it twice? If the Alliance actually made the decision to exile the Orcs back to Draenor they could have simply told Khadgar to wait with it even longer.

And also: sending the orcs back to their world was not the safest alternative, considering that, for as far as the humans knew, nothing would prevent the orcs from invading again. One portal was built, then another could be built as well.

JFC, I already preemptively addressed how the Alliance thought the closing of the Dark Portal was permanent and how they knew the Dark Portal on Azeroth had to be constructed by Medivh on Azeroth instead of being something the Orcs did on their own.

Yes, let's not. Because it's immaterial to the fact of the orcs doing the exact same atrocities as their "fel corrupted" kind did, down to the point of cutting down the draenei and using their souls to power their portal.

The fact that they did this due to being tricked in each instance is by no means "immaterial".

Kilrogg did so because the vision of his death showed himself as a fel-corrupted orc, so that blood was something he had to drink.

Which he states absolutely nowhere.

Orcs were never under "direct control" of the Legion, mind you.

Right. Except for things like Rise of the Horde describing them as Legion's minions after imbibing the blood, Mannoroth stating that the Orcs belong to him to the Dreadlords or him describing the nature of the blood curse to Thrall to taunt him.

[Ielenia]

Did high ranking members of Alliance agree with Gul'dan's reasoning the way Kilrogg agreed with him on the state of the Iron Horde?

Considering Kilrogg never says a single peep in the entire cinematic other than grunts and cries of pain during his transformation, I find this statement of yours highly dishonest considering five paragraphs below you dismiss my argument by saying "Kilrogg never said that".

JFC, I already preemptively addressed how the Alliance thought the closing of the Dark Portal was permanent and how they knew the Dark Portal on Azeroth had to be constructed by Medivh on Azeroth instead of being something the Orcs did on their own.

And, again, what stops someone else to building another portal, somewhere else on Azeroth? This is like sending a thief back home after he was arrested breaking into someone else's house instead of arresting them.

The fact that they did this due to being tricked in each instance is by no means "immaterial".

It doesn't matter if they were tricked, because, as I pointed out, the WoD orcs did all those atrocities in their own sound minds, without any sort of magical influence/corruption whatsoever.

Right. Except for things like Rise of the Horde describing them as Legion's minions after imbibing the blood, Mannoroth stating that the Orcs belong to him to the Dreadlords or him describing the nature of the blood curse to Thrall to taunt him.

So you believe taunts as 'truth'? So was Gul'dan telling the truth when he taunted the Alliance by saying Varian 'whimpered and begged for his life'? Again, as far as I know, the orcs are never shown to be under "direct control" of the Legion, in the game or in WoW or the novels.

[Sluvs]

Actually, if we use the Internment Camps as an example, the Alliance was held accountable and not only was the person who oversaw them killed, Terenas decission to persue the rebelling Orcs instead of focussing on the plague was a factor which lead to not only the Downfall of Lordaeron but also Lordaeron, the strongest alliance nation after which the Alliance was also named, becoming a member of the Horde.

Name me one time when the alliance got an entire Horde nation for the wrong doings of the Horde?

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Yeah, but we also have a novel in which we see Groms point of view and his internal dialogues, with no indication that he has no agency. He even was able to control his bloodlust, unleash it when it was tactically opportune. And we are talking about this period of time when the Orcs where under legion control, not the time in Ashenvale. The PoVs in Beyond the Dark Portal actually paint the Orcs as well able to think for themselves and with agency. Not to forget that the second war and the destruction of Stormwind happened after Doomhammer took over the Horde and effectively ended the Legion Control. After that as well as the Draenei Genocide was basically Orcs following their cultural traditions and customs, which were always all about war as we learned in WoD.



So what? The Shadow Council was part of the Horde, so everything Gul'dan does is the fault of the Horde? The Mag'har became a member of the Horde, so the Iron Horde is all on the Horde? The fact is, not a single nation which is currently in the Alliance was involved in the internment camps. The nation which did them is nowadays a member of the Horde, so there is no logic in blaming the Alliance for the internment camps. The logic is as if the EU was expected to be held accountable by the UKs actions, despite the UK having left the EU.

If the Orcs have a problen with the internment camps and want an apology, they should go to the Forsaken. And more precisely, Calia Menethil. She is Terenas daughter, she claims her fathers throne, she is accountable.

The first alliance is the same alliance that we have today. The horde was disbanded and the new horde was founded in its place. Not the same thing.

Also the orcs do have some amount of agency, but they only do it to serve their master desires, I would not call that free will at all, in fact the curse of the blood is constantly referred to as a shackle in war 3 and WoD.

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Gul'dan's words and taunts are not exactly a trustworthy source. Or are you going to trust that same Gul'dan's words when he said that Varian died whimpering and begging for his life, when we faced him atop the nightwell?

None of the other orcs in that cinematic showed "desperation". And as for Kilrogg, the guy had a vision of his death, so it could be argued that he drank that blood because the vision required him to be fel-corrupted.


I think it's very naive to think that a demon curse would leave you with your own free will unaltered. Grom was very much aware of the curse, that the "rage" would overtake them again, as indicated by the nameless orc, and Grom not only dismisses him, but welcomes the rage and bloodlust.

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They couldn't bring the orcs back to Draenor because the portal was destroyed. It would take some logistics to bring all the orcs to the portal which would only give opportunity for more orcs to come out of said portal.

And also: sending the orcs back to their world was not the safest alternative, considering that, for as far as the humans knew, nothing would prevent the orcs from invading again. One portal was built, then another could be built as well.


Yes, let's not. Because it's immaterial to the fact of the orcs doing the exact same atrocities as their "fel corrupted" kind did, down to the point of cutting down the draenei and using their souls to power their portal.


Kilrogg did so because the vision of his death showed himself as a fel-corrupted orc, so that blood was something he had to drink.


Orcs were never under "direct control" of the Legion, mind you.

No man, the text is clear, there is no room for interpretation there. The only reason they took guldan offer was because they had thei back against the wall, otherwise they would have refused, like they did the first time.

It may be naive but that was what he believed, the cutscene at the end proves that.

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Ah

No offense then I take my snarky comment back

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Woooooooshhhhhhhh

Nah, it's fine, I was not clear enough about that. I also do not take offense in thos forum anymore, it's just a conversation, it is fine.

[Shiza]

The first alliance is the same alliance that we have today. The horde was disbanded and the new horde was founded in its place. Not the same thing.

Also the orcs do have some amount of agency, but they only do it to serve their master desires, I would not call that free will at all, in fact the curse of the blood is constantly referred to as a shackle in war 3 and WoD.

This doesn't changes the fact that no faction which is at this point in the Alliance as we have it in World of Warcraft was involved with the internment camps. The perpetrator is a member of the Horde now. So you are blaming something on the Alliance which people who were readily accepted into the Horde did. If the Horde would have any real concerns about the internment camps, they would have settled the issue with the Forsaken.

Blaming the Alliance on the internment camps is as if I would say the Orcs did Wrathgate.

Not to forget that the old Horde and the new Horde thing doesn't matter, because there is a direct line of succession between the last Warchief of the old Horde and the new Warchief of the new Horde. I mean, probably even all the Draenei-rapists are still a part of it if they didn't die of old age, not to forget genocidal War Criminals like Saurfang who was a well respected hero of the Horde for commiting multiple genocides. The new Horde clearly succeeded the old Horde and even used the same system of government and the same flag, so they to be treated as the same entity. Just as the various iterations of Germany during the 20th century are legally the same entity.

Looking at the actions of the Orcs, there is also no indication that a majority of Orcs did any of their Warcrimines involuntarily. Outside of Saurfang, we never saw any Orc express regret for their actions and war crimes and we see them willingly and happily participate in two additional genocides. Not to forget the alternative history where they did everything the old Horde did voluntarily without any demonic involvement.

[cparle87]

• It was still an orc from the fel Horde. And I simply used the death of Varian's parents to establish that the orcs didn't say in internment camps "for generations".
• And as far as the humans know such lethargy could be just permanent and, if left alone, the orcs could start rampaging again.
• Except that the humans at the time did not know of "demonic corruption". What they saw of the orcs, rampaging and pillaging through their settlements, was all they knew of the orcs.

So if I mind controlled Anduin and had him murder Tyrande it would be Stormwind's fault?
Antonidas wanted to study the lethargy to see if this was the case, Terenas wouldn't let him.
They did. Dalaran told them partway through the Second War that there was demonic corruption and they saw firsthand the effects when it was removed.

[Sluvs]

This doesn't changes the fact that no faction which is at this point in the Alliance as we have it in World of Warcraft was involved with the internment camps. The perpetrator is a member of the Horde now. So you are blaming something on the Alliance which people who were readily accepted into the Horde did. If the Horde would have any real concerns about the internment camps, they would have settled the issue with the Forsaken.

Blaming the Alliance on the internment camps is as if I would say the Orcs did Wrathgate.

Not to forget that the old Horde and the new Horde thing doesn't matter, because there is a direct line of succession between the last Warchief of the old Horde and the new Warchief of the new Horde. I mean, probably even all the Draenei-rapists are still a part of it if they didn't die of old age, not to forget genocidal War Criminals like Saurfang who was a well respected hero of the Horde for commiting multiple genocides. The new Horde clearly succeeded the old Horde and even used the same system of government and the same flag, so they to be treated as the same entity. Just as the various iterations of Germany during the 20th century are legally the same entity.

Looking at the actions of the Orcs, there is also no indication that a majority of Orcs did any of their Warcrimines involuntarily. Outside of Saurfang, we never saw any Orc express regret for their actions and war crimes and we see them willingly and happily participate in two additional genocides. Not to forget the alternative history where they did everything the old Horde did voluntarily without any demonic involvement.

Genn was. Trollbane lineage is. Not only that, Stormwind was part of the alliance and it also had dwarves/elves at the time. All of them knew, all of them let it happen. Chris metzen already said that this alliance is the same alliance from long ago.

And that is way wrong, we see several orcs that regrets theiir actions during the first/second war. And it does matter, they changed their leaders and it is CONSTANTLY refered to as the new horde and very few people in game, maybe only kul tirans, treat them like they are related. Not only that, but the clans that continue to act on behalf of the old horde are not part of the new horde. They cant be treated as the same entity because they are not. The old horde is still very much active.