Horde Reparations

[Malikath]

The first alliance is the same alliance that we have today.-snip-

...Do you even know what the first alliance was?
Cause, frankly no, they're not, there have been 4 separate alliances each between different kingdoms in the Eastern kingdoms.

The first alliance was under Thoradin and Anasterian Sunstrider against their mutual enemy the Zandalari empire during the troll wars.
The second time an alliance was called was the events of WC1, the siege of stormwind and it was called by king Llane Wrynn and ended with his death.
The third alliance was again the 5 remaining human kingdoms, the dwarves, the high elves, and by proxy the gnomes, it was called by king Terenas Menethil and like wise ended in his death in WC3.
The modern alliance is the 4th alliance and the 2nd alliance of stormwind.

Because it's just that, an alliance of states for mutual benefit and survival.
It's not a formal organized government like the horde's dictatorship that's becoming a republic, it breaks and grows at each member nations leader's behest.

[Sluvs]

...Do you even know what the first alliance was?
Cause, frankly no, they're not, there have been 4 separate alliances each between different kingdoms in the Eastern kingdoms.

The first alliance was under Thoradin and Anasterian Sunstrider against their mutual enemy the Zandalari empire during the troll wars.
The second time an alliance was called was the events of WC1, the siege of stormwind and it was called by king Llane Wrynn and ended with his death.
The third alliance was again the 5 remaining human kingdoms, the dwarves, the high elves, and by proxy the gnomes, it was called by king Terenas Menethil and like wise ended in his death in WC3.
The modern alliance is the 4th alliance and the 2nd alliance of stormwind.

Because it's just that, an alliance of states for mutual benefit and survival.
It's not a formal organized government like the horde's dictatorship that's becoming a republic, it breaks and grows at each member nations leader's behest.

Normally I would agree with you, but we had one of the creators intervene and say that they are the same.

[Mehrunes]

...Do you even know what the first alliance was?
Cause, frankly no, they're not, there have been 4 separate alliances each between different kingdoms in the Eastern kingdoms.

The first alliance was under Thoradin and Anasterian Sunstrider against their mutual enemy the Zandalari empire during the troll wars.
The second time an alliance was called was the events of WC1, the siege of stormwind and it was called by king Llane Wrynn and ended with his death.
The third alliance was again the 5 remaining human kingdoms, the dwarves, the high elves, and by proxy the gnomes, it was called by king Terenas Menethil and like wise ended in his death in WC3.
The modern alliance is the 4th alliance and the 2nd alliance of stormwind.

Because it's just that, an alliance of states for mutual benefit and survival.
It's not a formal organized government like the horde's dictatorship that's becoming a republic, it breaks and grows at each member nations leader's behest.

Yeah, no. WC1 was Stormwind going alone. The Alliance was created only after it fell as a response to the Orcish threat. And from W2 onward we've only ever had one Alliance, which Metzen himself has confirmed.

[qwerty123456]

just because they know what it means don't mean the entire race did, you are extrapolating to win an argument, Garona was "created" by the shadow council doing the experiments, you are "implying" the entire race of orcs raped all the draeneis they could caught, in both timelines, that is just asinine.

I didn't imply the entire race did it. Clearly not all the orcs slaughtered other people any yet you aren't hung up on that part. Why is that? Because you know I'm not saying every orc you are just trying to downplay atrocities to try and "prove" me wrong. And yet only one of us as mentioned any actual lore. You are implying that it was an entirely foreign concept to the orcs except for a few individuals. Now which one of these is more asinine?

you don't have any canon confirmation of what you are trying to say, simple.

I have canon that that implies rape, other canon that confirms there have been orcs that have been raped and others that have raped before. While you have no canon confirmation that only a couple orcs raped and knew the concept of it.

right, and?

" the AU orcs didn't nearly as much destruction as the MU orcs, path of glory didn't exist in AU, you are making false comparison in this subject." There is no false comparison. You were trying to say imply the did less damage because they were "nicer" when the fact of the matter is they never got the chance too.


except im not "unable to admit", and yes, no one will admit the nonsenses you are throwing here.

The moment the orcs drank the demon blood they lost free will, end.

they were not, majority of the draenei race joined the legion, by their own free will, without being tricked.

but no one said it negated their responsability, you are making up things, but unlike orcs, eredar were not tricked, eredar were not robbed from their free will.

"13,000 years ago,[3] the dark titan Sargeras, in order to create a great Legion, planned to bolster his ranks by creating demons.[18] He was attracted by the eredar's magical affinity, and he contacted them under the guise of a benevolent being, promising their three leaders, Archimonde, Kil'jaeden, and Velen, vast powers and that he would use his power to transform their race into an even greater one so they may spread his universal union." A troubling vision soon came to Velen, who saw the eredar transformed into unspeakable demons. But despite Velen's misgivings, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden agreed to join Sargeras' Burning Legion.[19]

LOL god dude you keep claiming I lie about lore when you don't even know shit about it lol. I can't even take you seriously anymore. After this post I'm done responding to you unless you actually read up on the lore and have facts next time.

See below clearly you and others are trying to lessen the responsibility of Grom and the orcs by shifting blame on Garrosh tricking him with a vision.

pointless. again, who is doing that? you are attacking argumments no one ever made here

Pointless? Several orc fanatics here keep claiming Grom was tricked taking most of the responsibility from him.

Let's pay no attention to them being tricked by Garrosh and his gift of vision that he conveniently cut short.

they sure did, don't try to ignore how the eredar who joined the legion are the same race from the draenei, just because you change your name you don't get a free pass.

if you want to acusse every single orc for all the race did, in both timelines, don't be hypocrite with the draeneis


ho ho, so, just because they did indirectly doomed lots of other wolrds is fine, because they were in need.

See above And I never said the draenei were blameless its only orc fanatics who think the race is completely free of any responsibility.

then we should not blame the orcs for attacking the draenei and the alliance though, it probabbly for the better that the orcs attacked then, since made the draeneis run to azeroth and help the alliance, the horde also helped the humans not killing themselves

withou the orcs? wush the burning legion would fuck everything else am i right?

The orcs were primitive as hell with very little magic and technology. You seriously think they wouldn't have gotten steamrolled if the legion came there just to destroy them?

i was not even talking about the lightbound, but if the mask serves, yes, we have a ida of what they were doing and no, they were not "destroying the planent with iron horde tech"

Um yes they were still using it, did you not play the quest?

mindcontrolled? no, influenced? yes, tricked? i doubt, but time will tell

You got proof? Oh wait you never do.

that is a compeltely out of place argumment, you are comapring apples to potatoes

Showing that the Mag'har leader was completely willing to side with a genocidal monster even after nearly everyone including the people that helped her people flee to Azeroth went against her is an out of place argument? Clearly it shows the Mag'har are still blood hungry and willing to follow evil people.

4 draenei? you mean the sargerei were just 4? what a joke.

Compared to the number of orcs its a small number. If you compared it to the number of things you have gotten right in this post though I guess you could say they were numerous. Clearly 4 is not an exact number but a number to denote the relatively small amount of them.

just for a quickly summary

1 - most of the draenei joined winllingly the legion and spend a millenia destroying other worlds, including hunting their own people.
2- the ones fleeing also doomed lots of other planets in their running, leaving the native races to their own armagedon
3- the ones who were running even joined the LEgion later in WOD, and after that became a crusade of zealots.

Already proved you wrong on this near the top of the post.

comparing the orcs who

1 - lived thousands of years in peace, in their own place and with each other, until the Draenei brought the Legion with then
2 - Said Legion seizing the ocs a primitive and naive race used their ignorance and religion to trick then with war(something Garrosh did in WOD) and ultimaely robbed then from their free will.

1. Didn't live in peace lol. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Orc Try learning the lore before making lore posts.
2. "The blood of Mannoroth, the vile fluid that ran through the veins of the Destructor, was used to corrupt the orcish race and bind them to the will of Kil'jaeden. " They were never fully mindcontroled. They could do what ever they wanted as long as it didn't go against Kil'jaedens will.

if you put drugs on someone and they do shit, because the consequences of that said drug, you are going to put the ones who were drugged at fault?

[/QUOTE]
When they do the same thing without drugs you blame them.

[Shiza]

Genn was. Trollbane lineage is. Not only that, Stormwind was part of the alliance and it also had dwarves/elves at the time. All of them knew, all of them let it happen. Chris metzen already said that this alliance is the same alliance from long ago.

And that is way wrong, we see several orcs that regrets theiir actions during the first/second war. And it does matter, they changed their leaders and it is CONSTANTLY refered to as the new horde and very few people in game, maybe only kul tirans, treat them like they are related. Not only that, but the clans that continue to act on behalf of the old horde are not part of the new horde. They cant be treated as the same entity because they are not. The old horde is still very much active.

Yeah, they lead it happen that a race of seemingly demonic bloodthirsty monsters who were only interested in killing and conquering without the slightest provocation where put into internment camps instead of killing them. Still, the nation who planned, build and managed the internment camps is not a member of the Alliance anymore. It is a member of the Horde, so any issues with the internment camps have to be settled with the Forsaken. Thats like blaming the Burning Crusade Fel Hordes actions on the current Horde. Or whatever Rend Blackhand did.

Not to forget that so far, a majority of warchiefs where bloodthirsty, evil conquerors. Even if we only count the New Horde, 2 of 4 Warchiefs where genocidal maniacs and Villains and the majority of the Horde willingly and even happily followed them through genocides and only opposed them once they acted out against the Horde itself. In practice, half of the time the new Horde has acted no better than the old Horde. The Orcs so far have shown that they will use any opportunity given to them to wage war and commit genocides.

[Sluvs]

Yeah, they lead it happen that a race of seemingly demonic bloodthirsty monsters who were only interested in killing and conquering without the slightest provocation where put into internment camps instead of killing them. Still, the nation who planned, build and managed the internment camps is not a member of the Alliance anymore. It is a member of the Horde, so any issues with the internment camps have to be settled with the Forsaken. Thats like blaming the Burning Crusade Fel Hordes actions on the current Horde. Or whatever Rend Blackhand did.

Not to forget that so far, a majority of warchiefs where bloodthirsty, evil conquerors. Even if we only count the New Horde, 2 of 4 Warchiefs where genocidal maniacs and Villains and the majority of the Horde willingly and even happily followed them through genocides and only opposed them once they acted out against the Horde itself. In practice, half of the time the new Horde has acted no better than the old Horde. The Orcs so far have shown that they will use any opportunity given to them to wage war and commit genocides.

You can say whatever you want in order to excuse the fact that the alliance knew and allowed it to happen. But the fact remain, the alliance that enslaved orcs is the same alliance of today. Period. You can say that they were bloodthirsty monster or whatever, but enslavement is still enslavement.

Do not take offense to this, please, but you really shoudl brush up on your lore.There were people that were against garrosh from day 1, in fact a lot of MoP is about precisely that. They did not follow that willingly(hell, vol jin was intimidated) and during garrosh's horde, it was definitely not the majority of them that were by his side, he literally says that the trolls, taurens and whatnot are no longer part of his horde. With sylvannas you have a little more of an argument, since she managed to dupe the whole horde. Also you really cannot equate the horde to orcs, during sylvannas reign(?) we know for a fact that the majority of her supporters were undead and even then some had a problem with her (thus the desolate council). And the last sentence is just a downright lie, we have plenty of stances were the orcs actively refused to fight, the frostwolf clan refused to do so during WoD and during Cata in one of the quests in hillsbrad the clan refuse to help the horde in ANY capacity because they disagree with what is going on.

The orcs are a race of conquerors that can let their rage get out of control, BUT they are not inherently genocidal and they have actually shown their capacity for peace, because shamanism is also huge in their culture.

[Malikath]

Normally I would agree with you, but we had one of the creators intervene and say that they are the same.

>Metzen on WoW lore.

[Sluvs]

>Metzen on WoW lore.

Cute , but irrelevant, this is not a piece of information that slipped his mind.

It is a piece of Info that he, as a writer, wrote.

Anything else is headcanon, unless, ofc, Blizzard retcons that, which is possible.

Edit: I apologize, I was unnecessarily rude. But my point remains, this is not a misshap. He knew what he was talking about.

[Shiza]

You can say whatever you want in order to excuse the fact that the alliance knew and allowed it to happen. But the fact remain, the alliance that enslaved orcs is the same alliance of today. Period. You can say that they were bloodthirsty monster or whatever, but enslavement is still enslavement.

Yeah, but you can't blame the current Alliance for not more than knowing about it and allowing it to happen. And I mean, nobody will deny that Genn was an uncaring asshole before he turned Worgen and that Daelin really hated Orcs, while Varian had to take care of rebuilding the Kingdom the Orcs fully destroyed. But you can't blame the Alliance for building and managing the internment camps and keeping the Orcs enslaved. That one was Lordaeron, so it was done by a current member of the Horde. So if the Orcs feel salty about the camps, they should bother the Forsaken government about it, because using them to justify attacking the Alliance makes no sense when they allowed the Kingdom that did them immediatley into the Horde.

Do not take offense to this, please, but you really shoudl brush up on your lore.There were people that were against garrosh from day 1, in fact a lot of MoP is about precisely that. They did not follow that willingly(hell, vol jin was intimidated) and during garrosh's horde, it was definitely not the majority of them that were by his side, he literally says that the trolls, taurens and whatnot are no longer part of his horde. With sylvannas you have a little more of an argument, since she managed to dupe the whole horde. Also you really cannot equate the horde to orcs, during sylvannas reign(?) we know for a fact that the majority of her supporters were undead and even then some had a problem with her (thus the desolate council). And the last sentence is just a downright lie, we have plenty of stances were the orcs actively refused to fight, the frostwolf clan refused to do so during WoD and during Cata in one of the quests in hillsbrad the clan refuse to help the horde in ANY capacity because they disagree with what is going on.

If you would know the Lore, you would know that a majority of the Horde cheered at Theramore being nuked down, which was genocide as it was an action to destroy a national group. There was basically one tavern full of people who were against it, among the entire Horde. The Horde only sided against Garrosh once he turned full Orc Hitler and attacked most races of the Horde. Before that, they were fully support of his actions. The same with Sylvanas, where nobody but Saurfang took any offense with the Horde commiting a genocide. Nobody. Nobody objected. And yeah, so you have basically one orcish clan among the entire race which isn't genocidal by their very core.

The orcs are a race of conquerors that can let their rage get out of control, BUT they are not inherently genocidal and they have actually shown their capacity for peace, because shamanism is also huge in their culture.

Actually, only a minority showed any capacity of peace. The majority have proven themselves to be genocidal conquerors without any morality. This is how Blizzard chose to portray them. Complain to Blizzard that their writers constantly fanboy the fel Horde and want the Orcs to act that way.

[Craaazyyy]

they should burn a couple more Alliance cities

[Sluvs]

Yeah, but you can't blame the current Alliance for not more than knowing about it and allowing it to happen. And I mean, nobody will deny that Genn was an uncaring asshole before he turned Worgen and that Daelin really hated Orcs, while Varian had to take care of rebuilding the Kingdom the Orcs fully destroyed. But you can't blame the Alliance for building and managing the internment camps and keeping the Orcs enslaved. That one was Lordaeron, so it was done by a current member of the Horde. So if the Orcs feel salty about the camps, they should bother the Forsaken government about it, because using them to justify attacking the Alliance makes no sense when they allowed the Kingdom that did them immediatley into the Horde.



If you would know the Lore, you would know that a majority of the Horde cheered at Theramore being nuked down, which was genocide as it was an action to destroy a national group. There was basically one tavern full of people who were against it, among the entire Horde. The Horde only sided against Garrosh once he turned full Orc Hitler and attacked most races of the Horde. Before that, they were fully support of his actions. The same with Sylvanas, where nobody but Saurfang took any offense with the Horde commiting a genocide. Nobody. Nobody objected. And yeah, so you have basically one orcish clan among the entire race which isn't genocidal by their very core.



Actually, only a minority showed any capacity of peace. The majority have proven themselves to be genocidal conquerors without any morality. This is how Blizzard chose to portray them. Complain to Blizzard that their writers constantly fanboy the fel Horde and want the Orcs to act that way.

Ok listen, I feel like the point slipped by as the discussion went on. Im not here to hold the alliance accountable, I'm here to say that the enslavement happned and it was unjustified. That is it. As I said before, people just kept pilling reason to excuse it but you really cant excuse slavery. That was my point, not to say that the horde should have reparations over that, because that is stupid.

The horde cheered? I might be remebering wrong but I dont remember that happening. But hey, again, orcs are not the same as the horde. And plenty of people opposed garrosh before he went full hitler. Lor themar was one, Vol jin was another, baine had his issues too. The only reason that lor themar did not abandon the horde was because the isle of thunder and dalaran made that impossible, but ever since then he explicitly said that he intends to fight garrosh. Also, Baine opposed sylvannas, lilian voss and garona disliked it aswell. It is not as clear cut as you make it sound.

What? a minority? in war 3, when the horde was trolls, orcs and taurens they have not only kept the peace between themselves they also avoided combat when necessary. and the majority of those orcs are the orc that we play in game.

Now, i'm not going to lie either, the horde has been hit by the villain bat one too many times. I hate BfA story precisely because of that. And blizzard is not good at writing nuance but saying that the majority of orcs are genocidal conquerors is a bit much.

[Shaetha]

Woooooooshhhhhhhh

I never cared about any point you were trying to make.

You lied to make your point. I called it out.

[Syegfryed]

They did it specifically to go to war this isn't some new revelation.

right, but they didn't knew what it was and what would cause in the long run, just that was some kind of buff

Just because they are dumb as well as savage and got tricked doesn't excuse the fact that their intentions from the get-go were to kill and maim others

so, they being dumb and being tricked doesn't matter, they are still evul and blablabla

Hell in WC3 they drank the blood a SECOND time knowing full-well what it was lol.

they didn't knew what it was, fully, just that it was some kind of demon shenanigan, cause it was not demon blood, it was a water fountain.

Even prior that Manoroth influence was already starting to hold grip on on the orcs, And even grom became surprise when he show up, and later he is fully controlled by him.

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I didn't imply the entire race did it.

except you did, and was very clean, you tried to paint all race as rapist murderers and therefore, all orcs should pay for it, you even try to said it is genetics or some shit like that

Clearly not all the orcs slaughtered other people any yet you aren't hung up on that part. Why is that? Because you know I'm not saying every orc you are just trying to downplay atrocities to try and "prove" me wrong.

this doesn't ven make sense, but sure, if you say so

And yet only one of us as mentioned any actual lore. You are implying that it was an entirely foreign concept to the orcs except for a few individuals.

you are making that up again, never said it was "a foreign concept"

I have canon that that implies rape

there is no "canon that implies", canon confirms, if did not confirm then there is no canon.

other canon that confirms there have been orcs that have been raped and others that have raped before. While you have no canon confirmation that only a couple orcs raped and knew the concept of it.

what, hold on, you are saying me that "since there is no confirmation that just a couple of orcs raped it means there is tons and tons of orcs who raped"

what an awesome leap of logic, yet, there is just one single individual who came from said rapes, if it was so much like you implies it should be lots of then out there, again, you are exaggerating and extrapolating trying to paint orcs as rapist monsters, appealing to emotion, and yet, only the bladewind clan did that, and even in there, just some of then did aftr taking some draeneis as slaves, there is rotting aples everywhere.

" the AU orcs didn't nearly as much destruction as the MU orcs, path of glory didn't exist in AU, you are making false comparison in this subject." There is no false comparison. You were trying to say imply the did less damage because they were "nicer" when the fact of the matter is they never got the chance too.

they had all the chance to create another path of glory, but they didn't. they could have genocide countless of other races bu they didn't, you are trying to say they are the same of demonlust orcs because "orcs"

LOL god dude you keep claiming I lie about lore when you don't even know shit about it lol. I can't even take you seriously anymore. After this post I'm done responding to you unless you actually read up on the lore and have facts next time.

except the part you literally ignored that said despite Velen tolding then what it was, they still sided with the Legion regardless?:

But despite Velen's misgivings, Archimonde and Kil'jaeden agreed to join Sargeras' Burning Legion.

4Head

See below clearly you and others are trying to lessen the responsibility of Grom and the orcs by shifting blame on Garrosh tricking him with a vision.

no one is lessening" their responsability, you are ignoring that they were tricked, and want to accuse then without taking that in account.

Pointless? Several orc fanatics here keep claiming Grom was tricked taking most of the responsibility from him.

stating the obvious, that they were indeed tricked, don't take the "responsibility away", just don't make then rapist muderers with lust for blood like you want to imply

See above And I never said the draenei were blameless its only orc fanatics who think the race is completely free of any responsibility.

except no, no one think like that, th thing is orcs already paid for their crimes, demand compensation for shit that happened 30 years ago when they were mindcontroled is asinine

You seriously think they wouldn't have gotten steamrolled if the legion came there just to destroy them?

and you think the draeneis and the alliance would nto being streamrolled if it was not by the orcs who made then strong?

Um yes they were still using it, did you not play the quest?

using iron horde tech isn't "destroying the planet"

You got proof? Oh wait you never do.

and you do have proof they were mindcontroled as well? the draenei? we only have proof of then mindcontroling other orcs

Showing that the Mag'har leader was completely willing to side with a genocidal monster even after nearly everyone including the people that helped her people flee to Azeroth went against her is an out of place argument?

it is a obnoxious argument yes

clearly it shows the Mag'har are still blood hungry and willing to follow evil people.

thats the Affirming the Consequent fallacy, youa re on purpose trying to make this afirmation believable.

if that was true, literally all horde races are blood hungry and willing to follow evil people, and again, just obnoxious

their world was destroyed, the horde save then, what you think they should do? not stay in the only place they could go? you suggest they should pledge themselves to Anduin? isn't like the MAghar knew Sylvanus fame or what she have done in tldrassil, so rly, stop

Compared to the number of orcs its a small number

.

now you want to talka bout numbers, before it seems to not matter at all hum?

Already proved you wrong on this near the top of the post.

despite Velen words Kil'jaden and Archimond joined Sargeras, and did not get their free will's robbed, and even the draeneis in wod joined the Legion as well, despite of what they have done to their people

1. Didn't live in peace lol. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Orc Try learning the lore before making lore posts.

you want to teach me, orc lore now, thats cute, but yeah, orcs lived in peace, they only fought the races who try to attack and ensalve then, outside the ogre incident there was no other war, except when the legion show up. they didn't even fought themselves.

2. "The blood of Mannoroth, the vile fluid that ran through the veins of the Destructor, was used to corrupt the orcish race and bind them to the will of Kil'jaeden. " They were never fully mindcontroled. They could do what ever they wanted as long as it didn't go against Kil'jaedens will.

oh yes, "will bind to kil'jaden", sure made then do wherever they want, thats why countless of orcs perished once they were free from the control and their minds were once again then their own to revive what they did. Varok help save some of the veterans but even that they are still haunted by the memories.

Varok was the living proof of they do not had free will and were corrupted and inflicted with demon lust.

When they do the same thing without drugs you blame them.

except no same thing was done, different scenarios.

[Ielenia]

No man, the text is clear, there is no room for interpretation there. The only reason they took guldan offer was because they had thei back against the wall, otherwise they would have refused, like they did the first time.

It may be naive but that was what he believed, the cutscene at the end proves that.

What text?

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So if I mind controlled Anduin and had him murder Tyrande it would be Stormwind's fault?

Faulty compareison.
• The orcs weren't "mind controlled", they had their rage amplified.
• The orcs that rampaged through the Eastern Kingdoms in the second war are the same ones that were put in internment camps.

[Sluvs]

What text?

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Faulty compareison.
• The orcs weren't "mind controlled", they had their rage amplified.
• The orcs that rampaged through the Eastern Kingdoms in the second war are the same ones that were put in internment camps.

"You brought the clans to ruin."

I mean, it is only a taunt if it is true. I mean, they lost black hand, nerzhul, the thunderlords, the shatterd hand... They had only killrog and Grom at that point.

While the orcs were not mindless like the scourge, they were definitely definitely not in control. Multiple times the curse is referred to as a shackle, mannoroth refer to them as his minions and Grom at one point even praises his master.

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Also, one thing that I never understood is WHY kilrogg drank the juice since he saw his own death by our hands. 1000 IQ play right there. Jesus...

[cparle87]

What text?

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Faulty compareison.
• The orcs weren't "mind controlled", they had their rage amplified.
• The orcs that rampaged through the Eastern Kingdoms in the second war are the same ones that were put in internment camps.

1. Look up "distinction without a difference" and allow yourself to be educated. How many times have we had friendly npc's driven into an uncontrollable rage and we had no choice but to put them down. It's happened frequently going back to classic. Remember Vael?

Even in the real world we have cases where people killed one another and they weren't severely punished because of diminished capacity, sometimes as simple as one bad day pushing someone too far. Except this was a magical, species wide curse that sent them into such blind rage if they didn't have a target to kill they'd turn on their own people.

Not enough sure what your point of the second bullet is.

[qwerty123456]

right, but they didn't knew what it was and what would cause in the long run, just that was some kind of buff


so, they being dumb and being tricked doesn't matter, they are still evul and blablabla


they didn't knew what it was, fully, just that it was some kind of demon shenanigan, cause it was not demon blood, it was a water fountain.

Even prior that Manoroth influence was already starting to hold grip on on the orcs, And even grom became surprise when he show up, and later he is fully controlled by him.

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except you did, and was very clean, you tried to paint all race as rapist murderers and therefore, all orcs should pay for it, you even try to said it is genetics or some shit like that



this doesn't ven make sense, but sure, if you say so

you are making that up again, never said it was "a foreign concept"


there is no "canon that implies", canon confirms, if did not confirm then there is no canon.


what, hold on, you are saying me that "since there is no confirmation that just a couple of orcs raped it means there is tons and tons of orcs who raped"

what an awesome leap of logic, yet, there is just one single individual who came from said rapes, if it was so much like you implies it should be lots of then out there, again, you are exaggerating and extrapolating trying to paint orcs as rapist monsters, appealing to emotion, and yet, only the bladewind clan did that, and even in there, just some of then did aftr taking some draeneis as slaves, there is rotting aples everywhere.



they had all the chance to create another path of glory, but they didn't. they could have genocide countless of other races bu they didn't, you are trying to say they are the same of demonlust orcs because "orcs"



except the part you literally ignored that said despite Velen tolding then what it was, they still sided with the Legion regardless?:


4Head


no one is lessening" their responsability, you are ignoring that they were tricked, and want to accuse then without taking that in account.


stating the obvious, that they were indeed tricked, don't take the "responsibility away", just don't make then rapist muderers with lust for blood like you want to imply



except no, no one think like that, th thing is orcs already paid for their crimes, demand compensation for shit that happened 30 years ago when they were mindcontroled is asinine



and you think the draeneis and the alliance would nto being streamrolled if it was not by the orcs who made then strong?


using iron horde tech isn't "destroying the planet"


and you do have proof they were mindcontroled as well? the draenei? we only have proof of then mindcontroling other orcs



it is a obnoxious argument yes

thats the Affirming the Consequent fallacy, youa re on purpose trying to make this afirmation believable.

if that was true, literally all horde races are blood hungry and willing to follow evil people, and again, just obnoxious

their world was destroyed, the horde save then, what you think they should do? not stay in the only place they could go? you suggest they should pledge themselves to Anduin? isn't like the MAghar knew Sylvanus fame or what she have done in tldrassil, so rly, stop
.

now you want to talka bout numbers, before it seems to not matter at all hum?


despite Velen words Kil'jaden and Archimond joined Sargeras, and did not get their free will's robbed, and even the draeneis in wod joined the Legion as well, despite of what they have done to their people



you want to teach me, orc lore now, thats cute, but yeah, orcs lived in peace, they only fought the races who try to attack and ensalve then, outside the ogre incident there was no other war, except when the legion show up. they didn't even fought themselves.


oh yes, "will bind to kil'jaden", sure made then do wherever they want, thats why countless of orcs perished once they were free from the control and their minds were once again then their own to revive what they did. Varok help save some of the veterans but even that they are still haunted by the memories.

Varok was the living proof of they do not had free will and were corrupted and inflicted with demon lust.




except no same thing was done, different scenarios.

Ok Teriz I guess the lore is what you make it and not what the facts and blizzard state. Care to link where I ever said it was all orcs?

Yeah Velen recived a vision, not the other two and he told them maybe they shouldnt join. It still doesn't change the fact that they were tricked or the fact that the orcs also had people saying "maybe we shouldn't do this". Do you seriously not look at any lore and just write fanfiction? I mean you keep claiming the orcs were peaceful when up until like 800ish years ago they were hiding in caves hoping Ogres and other massive creatures don't grab em and do fucked up shit to em. Then they were always fighting shit up until the Draenei came.

Clearly someone needs to teach you orc lore because you seem to know nothing about it. But yeah since you refuse to actually show me any proof I'm wrong while I continually link stuff proving you wrong I'm just going to stop responding as you clearly aren't going to bother to actually look up any info and just say what you feel is right.

[Syegfryed]

Ok Teriz I guess the lore is what you make it and not what the facts and blizzard state. Care to link where I ever said it was all orcs?

your stance and words plus your appeal to pity did that, unless you want to backtrack and reconsider that, which is completely fine.

Yeah Velen recived a vision, not the other two and he told them maybe they shouldnt join.

they still knew what it was, they being tricked at first is one thing, but they knew what they were going and didn't back down, they didn't get their free will robbed, thats the big difference.

The draeneis in wod also knew fully well the legion and accept then anyway, you don't want to judge then, but you are very quickly to judge the orcs because kill'rog accept the blood later own, so, orcs are evil by accepting the legion, but, draeneis are pure ? double standards

Do you seriously not look at any lore and just write fanfiction?

so you are going to parrot this every time?

I mean you keep claiming the orcs were peaceful when up until like 800ish years ago they were hiding in caves hoping Ogres and other massive creatures don't grab em and do fucked up shit to em. Then they were always fighting shit up until the Draenei came.

fighting things that want to kill then is completely the opposite of ragging war towards other races AND themselves just because they lust for war, battle and blood, like you implied.

Orcs lived in peace with other clans just fine, they barely fought seriously with other races with exception of ogres, by obvious reasons, and didn't give a shit about draeneis until the Legion deceive then, if orcs are those rapist monsters who only want war that is something on their genetic - something that you implied - they should have being doing that WAY sooner and without the need of deceive by a third party, they should be ragging war against any living thing in draenor, including themselves, cause thats what genocide murderers do, and spoilers, they didn't.

Clearly someone needs to teach you orc lore because you seem to know nothing about it.

sure someone could do that, id on't know all, but sure its not you to do that, since you are completely biased, who ignore basic things, like orcs literally being corrupted and bound to the legion's will and often appeal to pity to win an argument.

But yeah since you refuse to actually show me any proof I'm wrong while I continually link stuff proving you wrong I'm just going to stop responding as you clearly aren't going to bother to actually look up any info and just say what you feel is right.

"link stuff to prove you wrong" you literally just put the orc wowpedia and brought other quotes with no actual context on what is being discussed, even the one you brought saying the draeneis got tricked is immediately irrelevant when the rest says despite velen warning they accept the Legion anyway.

[qwerty123456]

your stance and words plus your appeal to pity did that, unless you want to backtrack and reconsider that, which is completely fine.



they still knew what it was, they being tricked at first is one thing, but they knew what they were going and din't back down, they didn't get their free will robbed, thats the big difference.

The draeneis in wod also knew fully well the legion and accept then, you don't want to judge then, but its very quickly in judge the orcs because kill'rog accept the blood later own, double standards


so you are going to parrot this every time?


fighting things that want to kill then is completely the opposite of raggin war towards other races AND themselves just because they lust for war, battle and blood, like you implied.

Orcs lived in peace with other clans just fine, they barely fought seriously with other races with exception of ogres, by obvious reasons, and didn't give a shit about draeneis until the Legion deceive then, if orcs are those rapist monsters who only want war that is something on their genetic - something that you implied - they should have being doing that WAY sooner and without the need of deceive by a third party, they should be ragging war against any living thing in draenor, including themselves, cause thats what genocide murderers do, and spoilers, they didn't.


sure its not you to do that, since you are compltely biased, who ignore basic things, like orcs literally being corrupted and binded to the legion's will and appeal to pity in this scenario.



"link stuff to prove you wrong" you literally just put the orc wowpedia and brought other quotes with no actual context on what is being discussing, even the one you brought saying the draeneis got tricked is immediately ignored when the rest says desptie velen warning they accept the LEgion anyway.

Again show proof. You can't. Seriously I'm done with you. Ogrim and the Frostwolves refusing to drink the demon blood because they knew shit was up is the same as Velen warning the others. And at least Sargeras came to them pretending to be a benevolent being unlike Gul'dan. Your bias is clearly showing. Just because you can't read a link doesn't make it any less accurate. Also wtf you talking about peaceful? Do you not know the definition? Do you seriously think they were constantly holding hands with each other?

"The orc population exploded, and overpopulation and lack of prey to hunt became a serious issue. Tensions between families simmered, but before war erupted many orcs migrated out of Gorgrond in search of new land to settle. Those who remained in Gorgrond formed the Blackrock, Laughing Skull, Lightning's Blade and Dragonmaw clans. Those who migrated east found themselves drawn to Tanaan Jungle, where they adopted a savage, superstitious mindset. Those who kept their sanity became the Bleeding Hollow clan, while those who lost themselves to dark impulses were exiled and over time formed another, smaller clan known as the Bonechewers. The orcs who journeyed west of Gorgrond settled in the icy Frostfire Ridge. The Frostwolves and Whiteclaws learned to adapt to the environment, while the Thunderlord clan instead sought to dominate the land. In the south, three clans settled in the mountains and plains of fertile Talador: the Burning Blade, Redwalkers and Bladewinds. Finally, the Warsong clan migrated farther southwest and roamed the plains of Nagrand, while to the southeast the peaceful Shadowmoon clan formed in Shadowmoon Valley.[4]"

"For generations, the orc clans lived on the fringes of the Gorian Empire of the ogres, engaging in occasional territorial disputes but never committing to all-out war against the ogres. The Gorian had little interest in (or fear of) the orcs and saw their practice of shamanism as little more than quaint trickery, but when they witnessed the power of a shaman first-hand they decided to take this power by force. 403 years before the Dark Portal, Imperator Molok sent an army to drive away the orcs from the Throne of the Elements and begin experimenting on the power there. One day, the dissonance between the ogres' magic and the residual energies lingering in the remains of Grond, from whose head the Throne had been formed, caused an explosion that blew apart the orcish temple at the site. The incident threw the elements out of balance all across Draenor, causing great storms, but Molok simply sent more spellcasters to replace the ones that had been killed by the explosion.[5]

At the next year's Kosh'harg festival, the Shadowmoon elder shaman Nelgarm pleaded for action, lest all of the clans suffer disastrous famines as a result of the elements' imbalance. The clans agreed to join together, and Nelgarm called upon the elements to bless them with their protection. The united orc army took back the Throne of the Elements with little bloodshed, but Imperator Molok was quick to retaliate. The Gorian armies moved en masse, and total war engulfed Draenor, and now every orcish male, female and child had to be prepared to fight. The ogres imagined that this merciless tactic would strike terror into the hearts of the orcs, but the clans rose to the challenge and small, mobile groups of raiders slowly dismantled the Gorian Empire's network of fortresses and outposts, pushing the ogre armies back to their capital, Goria.[5]

The orcs kept their distance on the hills surrounding the city, content to starve their enemy out. As the siege progressed and the ogres found maintaining their empire to be increasingly unsustainable, Molok and his sorcerers revisited their Apexis crystals, searching for a way to break the siege. In time, they discovered the arakkoan legend about the Curse of Sethe, and began experimenting with ways to create a similar affliction among the orcs. They succeeded, and soon the so-called red pox spread like wildfire through the orcs' encampments, culling vast amounts of the orcish combatants. Nelgarm and his fellow shaman, realizing that the pox was an unseen attack from the ogres and that the siege was now doomed to fail, beseeched the elements to destroy Goria. The orcs and the elemental spirits both understood that Molok would resume meddling with the Throne of the Elements if the orcs failed, and so the spirits unleashed their fury upon Goria. Over hours, lightning, fire and earthquakes ravaged the ogre capital until nothing but ash and rubble remained, before the earth itself wrenched open like a giant maw to swallow Molok and the remains of his great city whole.[5]

Only whispers of the event would reach the other Gorian cities, but those whispers were enough to discourage further tampering with the elements. The orcs were victorious, but they had suffered massive losses and witnessed a destructive power they never wanted to see again. Nelgarm and the other shaman were particularly frightened by the elementals' wrath and said that the need for a unified orc army had passed. There was little argument, and the orc clans returned to their lands. The Gorian Empire never recovered. The ogre outposts and fortresses gradually became more akin to individual city-states than a unified nation. The orcs began to seize ogre lands by force, gradually surpassing them as the most advanced, dominant race on the world — that is, until the arrival of the draenei 200 years later.[5]"


Yeah totally peaceful. Get a clue dude the only biased one here is you. I bet you don't even play both factions.

[Ardenaso]

That wasn't the declaration of the 'Fourth War' between the Alliance and Horde. That is apart of what is known now as the 'Alliance-Horde War' that goes through Cataclysm up to the end of Mists of Pandaria.


Although, I think one could argue that Garrosh's defeat didn't technically end the 'Alliance-Horde War' at all.

I got the impression that the major wars were between the Alliance and Horde, or at least their predecessors:

First War: Stormwind vs. Old Horde
Second War: Alliance of Lordaeron vs. Old Horde
Third War: Kalimdor Expedition vs. Thrall's Horde
Fourth War: Grand Alliance vs. Thrall's Horde

really didn't make sense that the Alliance-Horde War isn't the Fourth War