Has Blizzard lost sight of its audience? Or has its audience genuinely changed?

[Lolites]

The audience they used to appeal to, mmorpg players, they feel is a waste of time to bother with. Ignoring the fact that, at WoW's peak in Wrath, it had 12 million subs, and now has somewhere under 6, it would be safe to say "appealing to the general market, including women, gays, etc. is a good idea"

The problem with that line of thinking is that it cost them the 6 million other subs they had in Wrath. They essentially tanked their game's revenue by appealing to an audience that was never going to play their game. Why? Because other games beat them to the punch. Guild Wars 2, Final Fantasy, etc. are all more inclusive than WoW, and will be unless WoW literally shifts their game to a women-only focus.

But if they do that they also lose whatever remains of the mmorpg crowd.

at cata or panda (not sure now) they released that over 100m people tried it, yet they never had more than 12,5m active players, so obviously wow was loosing players all its lifetime, there just have to came a point when its loosing them faster than gaining new, and that have more to do with market than with quality of game itself, its life cycle of every product, be it game or anything else

as for "this line of thinking cost them 6m subs" ...yeah, we dont really know that, actualy it might be "this line of thinking let them KEEP 6m subs", if they had different line of thinking wow could be already dead...
what we know is that for sub based 15 year old game, its doing AMAZING

[Magnagarde]

Warcraft always had great and iconic female characters. This illusion that females are underrepresented is a joke. If any company had a large female representation within its universe, then it was Blizzard.

This talk about equality of representation, instead of represention in equal quality as it used to be, has lead to Blizzard tanking franchise-defining female characters that existed long before all of this. They care about the number of females and homosexuals, sidelining actual character development for said characters.

It is somewhat ironic that the popularity of their female characters is at an all time low, at a time when they're not hiding the fact that this is pivotal for them.

[goldlock]

Did you see the new artbook coming out? The gay spymaster who describes Garithos as a bigot, with the author explicitly stating that Blizzard had a hard request to make the Shaw thing happen. This is when the author has to craft an eviscerated story around a preset thought, instead of making a story that feels organic, relatable in and out of the universe. We all know Garithos is a bigot, but that's a real life perspective on a character within a very, very unforgiving and cruel universe in which no one - at least back when the writing and story mattered most - would use the word "bigot".

At this point I feel like Warcraft is becoming a parody of real life.




There are no in-universe believable characters that are male either nor are there any that don't act as a foil for a female lead. All of BfA was about what Sylvanas is doing and how Sylvanas impacted the Horde, how she had a masterplan all along, how her boytoy Nathanos executes orders without question and more. Then you have to deal with Tyrande going full vengeance mode because of what Sylvanas did, while following Maiev or Sira. Rastakhan gets killed off to be replaced by a female character, Katherine Proudmoore was leading Kul Tiras and was advised by Lady Ashvane, getting replaced by Jaina Proudmoore in the end.

The male characters that follow suit are all gutless, indoctrinated by a female, pathetic and lost, ranging from Anduin who is pathetically lost, Saurfang who is lost and Nathanos who is a puppet.

I would argue there are a lot... the problem with characters like sylvanas is their motivations don't match their actions at all... the story of sylvanas should of ended with the death of the lich king and her hurling herself off of ice crown. It wouldn't of been a happy ending but it would of made sense. Even the fear of death story of sylvanas would of made a compelling plot if the first thing she did with that fear wasn't start a pointless war that lead to her being shot to death...

The problem people have with blizzard story telling is characters exist to push the plot rather then react to the plot and general world around them.

[Frostpyro]

I think there is a bit of both in the actual changes; however, Blizzard as a company has always been about bringing gaming to EVERYONE, rather than being geared toward a niche or specific crowd. I think we had a GREAT balance of this in Cataclysm (though i have preference of WotLK). I think the balance between the different audiences was great.

[Shiza]

They should call him incompetent, daft or even an imbecile. The word bigot should by default not exist in the universe of Warcraft because almost everyone is one to a varying extent. Garithos being a bigot should be the last adjective a spymaster like Shaw should be using. Night elves are bigots, the Nightborne are bigots, high elves are bigots, humans are bigots towards orcs and trolls, yet this is the standard for these races and nobody is being called out on it specifically because the Warcraft universe itself has a deeply-rooted sense of interracial tension and conflict.

To now call Garithos specifically a bigot makes absolutely no sense in an universe where every single race has a deeply-rooted past and present when it comes to bigotry. Of course we know that he is one as out of character observers.

Garithos most memorable action was driving the Blood Elves away from the Alliance due to his racism though. So it kinda makes sense that he is remembered for being a racist, because that is his defining trait in the eyes of history, being the racist who ensured that the Horde claims Quel'thalas as a member.

[Marxman]

The true test of whether or not the problem lies with the game/design or with the players is to go back and play what you know you used to enjoy. I've been playing a WotLK private server with a group of friends and having a ton of fun. That's not nostalgia, it's just a much more enjoyable gaming experience. I haven't changed (much), but the game is basically unrecognizable from what it was at its peak. That's not on the players, it's on the developers for losing sight of what a good gameplay loop feels like.

Hint: it's not endless dailies and infinite grinds. It's good dungeons/raids with good friends... and not feeling obligated to play 8 hours a day.

[Fathr]

I've already pointed out that Classic is not a 1:1 representation of vanilla WoW.

Molten Core remained unclear for 154 days back in the day. Compare that to the 2-hour time it took in Classic, from it being opened to first full clear. Are you trying to say that "BiS gear" and "BiS buffs" were what managed to reduce the clear time to 0.05% of its original record?

Even if that is what you're trying to claim, here, that still doesn't change what I said. Because, if people had "BiS gear" and "BiS buffs" back then, then MC wouldn't last even half the time it did back then, right?

"Ah, but today we have extensive YT guides on how to clear those bosses now! Which is why they went down so fast!" Well, we also have extensive YT guides to defeat current raid bosses, and those don't go down as fast now do they?

We do and Blizzard have evolved in creativity towards making encounters with increased difficulty to correspond to a better crowd so ? It still doesnt make wow reach the top of their subscriptions.

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Whatever the heck i said wasn't meant to be an insult. It was my projection of myself onto your life. Sure, cars are cool I guess. My whole sphcheel is why waste anymore time with WoW? That's pretty crazy how an extra 20 hours a week could net you that much. I assume you're some sort of consultant or high-end developer. I just can't imagine balancing that work life is why I went on a tangent. Yea, I didn't read the OP so I was a bit confused. The game doesn't even seem to be designed for the people on the high-end anymore. It's as if they want to demolish the raiding scene overall. Or make it less competitive and casual as resources can be focused elsewhere.

They probably designed the jump with Mario in mind. As he's a stocky man as art KTs. *shrugs* I'm not posturing that he excluded them on purpose as we weren't as well known in the past. We still existed but it's a telling sign that there wasn't somebody for a young person to identify completely with in those stories. The topic has to do with the audience changing and some ppl were mentioning politics, ya? It's pretty fucked up to exclude whole groups of people from stories, cut and dry.

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Someone 'oght to have done it

Yup but it wasnt common knowledge, we had the forums, thottbot and tankspot back then, today we have a gazillion of these in combination with discord channels, so information, math and ideas are spreading like wildfire.

[Ielenia]

We do and Blizzard have evolved in creativity towards making encounters with increased difficulty to correspond to a better crowd so ? It still doesnt make wow reach the top of their subscriptions.

So now you're changing your tune? Because your original argument was "WoW was more hardcore back then", and everything points out that, no, WoW was not more hardcore back then.

If anything, WoW Classic proves that the original WoW was not designed to be hardcore, and was not hardcore, even when compared with today's iteration of the game.

[Celarent]

WoW-wise, developer turnover was noticeable as early as 2012 during the Mists beta; and overt, with many new design philosophies, by 2014. The company has followed to some degree, although Blizzard is still focused on stylized genre releases rather than innovation.

Culture-wise, a cycle of design and market has speciated remaining subscribers into players who like Blizzard's approach to constant play and frequent rewards, as well plot elements and storytelling methods. Sword-and-sorcery is an '80s Kid thing, and many have walked out the door parallel to many of us.

So, per the OP, I think we're just getting old.

The true test of whether or not the problem lies with the game/design or with the players is to go back and play what you know you used to enjoy. I've been playing a WotLK private server with a group of friends and having a ton of fun. That's not nostalgia, it's just a much more enjoyable gaming experience. I haven't changed (much), but the game is basically unrecognizable from what it was at its peak. That's not on the players, it's on the developers for losing sight of what a good gameplay loop feels like.

Hint: it's not endless dailies and infinite grinds. It's good dungeons/raids with good friends... and not feeling obligated to play 8 hours a day.

So, so right. Per the 3.3.5 thread, too few people remember how much players enjoyed the ICC pastime of leveling a new alt and enjoying a favorite spec's gameplay while gearing in low-stress and relatable dungeons, then hitching rides on guilds runs and pugs to pick up pieces they couldn't find with badges or VoA after a satisfying Wintergrasp win, maybe some world shenanigans in between...and then leveling the next alt and starting over. Expansion was nigh over yet subscription didn't budge -- numbers don't lie!

[Fathr]

So now you're changing your tune? Because your original argument was "WoW was more hardcore back then", and everything points out that, no, WoW was not more hardcore back then.

If anything, WoW Classic proves that the original WoW was not designed to be hardcore, and was not hardcore, even when compared with today's iteration of the game.

Show me where I said it was more hardcore back then. Strawman discussion. Point of the matter is the time was different back then, there is nothing further to discuss about a 15 year old game.

[Marrilaife]

But that was the point. It's been almost six years since Overwatch. More than six years for Hearthstone. Five years since Heroes of the Storm which is now fairly said to be only mildly supported and not really so much a new idea as a conflagration of all of their IP's into one thing. Diablo IV is a sequel which won't be out for years yet. The mobile Diablo game isn't really "new" in the sense I meant either.

When I said new games I meant, new games. Not expansions, not sequels, not endless variations on their already tired IP's. I can agree to disagree here but new titles are the lifeblood of a studio (and sometimes their downfall if they're bad enough). Blizzard isn't delivering them.

Yeah, they had a burst of ideas and period of releasing all these new titles, Hearthstone, Hots, Overwatch, getting Destiny into Activision portfolio, and now it seems it all died down, I dunno why, financial cuts? Top ends deciding no more projects, just milk existing cows?

Inclusion is nice, most people simply don't understand because they don't know what it's like to not be included.

Idk, you could always make a female character, some races including Humans already had a dark skin tone, various races already were a reference to specific cultures, and about gay people it's not something you can see looking at the character and pick in the character creation.

And when it comes to writing, I would prefer if the females were something more than crazed with their newest superpower.

I have no problem with including more females, trans people, or underrepresented people of any kind. Diversity is great. Celebrate it.

I DO have a problem with bad writing. That includes bad regular writing as well as writing that in an attempt to be inclusive ends up being bad - which is not the same thing as opposing the idea of inclusivity, just criticizing the often sloppy, ham-fisted, forced manner of its execution.

I've long held the stance that what we really need is a new normal, not a new special. The kind of writing that caricatures, stereotypes, or typifies inclusion - even with good intentions - just goes counter to what I believe should be an organic, matter-of-fact transition to a world that doesn't HIGHLIGHT the differences of diversity, but simply ACCEPTS it as a ubiquitous fact of life.

Yep, agreed. Forced inserts only do a disservice to whatever minority they're supposed to represent.

For example black people in movies. There are stories where it's important that the characters are black. There are stories where the characters are just black and it doesn't impact the story in any negative or positive manner. And then there are the bad stories, with token black dude or chick that you can see 100% was only planted there to avoid the "racist" label for not putting them there. These characters usually are an embodiment of stereotypes and very bad portrayal.

One of the biggest issue with hoping of getting many of the "old audience" back into wow, is that the game has changed so much. One huge part of it is the staggering amount of grinds you gotta do. In legion & BfA this only got worse, SL looks like it will be more of the same grind.

Back in the day your friend could lvl up to max and in decent amount of time he would be geared and viable for current content. Or you could decide to swap main character and get him viable in decent amount of time/effort.

Today? Theres no point getting friends to join in mid/late xpac. There are so many grind obstacles layed out that by the point you have done it, you are bored of the game. Couple that with worse gameplay, people just steer away.

Yeah, no idea why they went into the model of "daily bucket of chores" because as the audience gets older and more busy irl nobody wants to go back home from work and think they have to do x, y, z before they can actually chill and do some content for fun. 8.3 for example completely killed my motivation to play with all the Nzoth invasions, dailies every day, visions, and that's not counting time spent raiding, doing m+ or any older content like emissaries, islands or warfronts.

Overwatch for example is a game that seems to have been designed to be fun, more casual type of fps moba. And that would've been fine, except Blizzard pushed their "competitive" mentality and eSports all over the game, which in turn made the game less fun for the majority and, unironically, still couldn't manage to balance the game at a competitive level. So they killed both sides of the playerbase. It couldn't decide what it wanted to be, and it suffered greatly.

Tbh wow has the same problem, they can't decide whether they want this game to be e-sports and balanced around MDI, arena tournament and mythic raid race to world first, or do they want to be about "beating heart of RPG, player agency and choice". In the end you have a situation like for example m+ scene where player has the "choice" and "agency" but then keeps being declined from groups because they don't play a widely accepted spec.

[Hadriker]

The majority of OPs post seems to be about inclusion in games. Back in the 90s video games was largely seen as a boys hobby. Not necessarily an adult hobby, or something women or girls regularly participated in.

As those players have grown up and and they have had children of their own, video game demographics has changed a lot of the past 2 decades. The general public perception of who plays video games, and on gender, among other things has also changed a lot and is generally more inclusive then it ever has been. So Blizzards games have changed to reflect that. Its not a bad thing or anything that really warrants any discussion. Its just ow the world works. Businesses change with the times if they want to stay in business.

[ihate2beapessimist]

Googled "Blizzard merch store", checked the website.
First thing I see is a badass Diablo 4 figure and a badass Diablo 4 shirt that looks like an old school metal album cover.
So basically OP, I think you are full of shit.

[Ielenia]

Show me where I said it was more hardcore back then. Strawman discussion.

You're right. That's my bad. I mistook you with the poster I originally replied to.

[arkanon]

Googled "Blizzard merch store", checked the website.
First thing I see is a badass Diablo 4 figure and a badass Diablo 4 shirt that looks like an old school metal album cover.
So basically OP, I think you are full of shit.

And i just did the same, and saw a cute little backpack with a pink bunny on it and a sippy cup. I also think its kinda subjective to call a toy doll from a video game "badass".

[Arrashi]

They didn't lost sight from anything. They just turned into generic corporation where ideas for products don't come from visionaries but from data analysis.

[Zephire]

They're updating the wheel.

I've heard a "riddle" which does a good job being an example how things have changed and it goes like this:
A son and his father crash their car. The father dies. The son wakes up in the hospital and the doctor says this: "Hello son". Who is the doctor?

Answer: The doctor the mother of the son.

It's not difficult to figure out today but back in the day, some 40 years ago, then more people would struggle to figure it out because a doctor was expected to be a male. I think this is somewhat what's happening with many franchises. New stories becomes inclusive and resonates better with new views. It's a good thing in my opinion. Remember though, that inclusive is just that, inclusive. So there would be a lot of different stereotypes present in a story. A masculine male brute, a sexy hot female, a smart guy with glasses, a supporting female character, a gay male leader, a super strong female princes, a lesbian assassin, a transgender bartender, a really ugly male, a super fat female and so on. There's a story to tell and it matters nothing which stereotypes the characters are as long as the story is told in a fitting way.

A story shouldn't force things.

Just give us all of the different characters, but please do it in a good way. It's really not very important that someone is gay if it isn't about forced marriage with a girl. If you only meet an assassin while s/he's killing stuff, sexual orientation is a none factor.

Is it important for the story?

[Raisei]

I do actually like female protagonists, not even sure why. As long as it is not overdone it is an absolutely fine thing.

Like take Avengers Endgame. The scene right after Captain Marvel grabbed the glove and Pete says: "I don't know how you will get through all of that alone."
And then every. single. female. hero appears to help her, not a single male one because apparently they stopped caring about the fate of the universe for a few minutes.
It was a good scene in terms of action, but this all-female squad felt forced and completely unnecessarily overdone. I don't think anyone doubted that there were female heroes around and that they were badasses (Captain Marvel literally soloed a gigantic space ship minutes before), so that scene just felt weird.

I can't say I felt that way in WoW ever. Jaina and Sylvanas have been major characters for ages and are beloved by many, having them in the spotlight felt natural, Anduin always was softer then his father, ever since Pandaria trying to consolidate Horde and Alliance instead of wiping the Horde out, so it can't be a surprise that this is the kind of king he turned out to be.

There is a fine balance between having good female characters in lead roles and shoving females in your face because you wanna follow some quota and Blizzard is actually doing a fine job at it.

[plz delete account]

But that was the point. It's been almost six years since Overwatch. More than six years for Hearthstone. Five years since Heroes of the Storm which is now fairly said to be only mildly supported and not really so much a new idea as a conflagration of all of their IP's into one thing. Diablo IV is a sequel which won't be out for years yet. The mobile Diablo game isn't really "new" in the sense I meant either.

When I said new games I meant, new games. Not expansions, not sequels, not endless variations on their already tired IP's. I can agree to disagree here but new titles are the lifeblood of a studio (and sometimes their downfall if they're bad enough). Blizzard isn't delivering them.

No, from what you've said, you're looking for new IPs, NOT new games.
Again, misdirection from you. You know better.

[Delekii]

You can tell who only read the title and not the OPs post. This is just another Women Bad whine thread and it's not even subtle about it.

Lol, I thought it was me.

Most of the replies have nothing to do with the OP, who said that Blizzard made a name for themselves by making macho products where women were secondary to the storyline of the "badass dudes doing badass things".. which is absolutely not the case anyway. Lol.

Jaina, Sylvanas, Kerrigan, Tyrande, those are the few that come to mind immediately.

They certainly have tilted toward more female characters, but so has literally any company that is remotely interested in making money.

The true test of whether or not the problem lies with the game/design or with the players is to go back and play what you know you used to enjoy. I've been playing a WotLK private server with a group of friends and having a ton of fun. That's not nostalgia, it's just a much more enjoyable gaming experience. I haven't changed (much), but the game is basically unrecognizable from what it was at its peak. That's not on the players, it's on the developers for losing sight of what a good gameplay loop feels like.

Hint: it's not endless dailies and infinite grinds. It's good dungeons/raids with good friends... and not feeling obligated to play 8 hours a day.

I agree with this description entirely.

There was a Blizzard employee from an early-ish Blizzcon that made a comment that stuck in my head ever since, even if I have no idea who the person was or what the comment was directly related to. He said something along the lines of "the things that people have the most fun with are things that make them feel like they are breaking the rules, but which the game is designed around existing". This is a thing that just doesn't happen any more, and when it does, things inevitably get changed.

Blizzard today seems invested in making sure that everything takes as long as possible before people just won't do it any more. They spend maximum effort doing this milking of the player's time and efficiency, at the expense of everything else; including fun. I'm not really confident on when the change happened; AP in legion was the first overt personification of this change, but I feel like it must have been happening before then and we just hadn't put a face to the name, so to speak.