Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[crusadernero]

I think a better conclusion to who you quoted is that there will be no need to grind M+ for gear, especially at the start of a raid tier. Instead, you can replay M+ if that's your preferred content, without having to severely mess up the loot hierarchy (which was a huge problem being able to spam M+ for better-than-heroic raid loot). At most, you can grind M+ for the lowest level gear if you want, but that will die off fairly fast or won't be required if you do any form of raiding. Grinding keys will be more about opening options in your weekly Vault or seeing how high you can push keys, less about the loot at the end of the run, which means there's a clear choice about whether you should run M+ or not (especially in a world w/o WF/TFing and corruption). For many raiders, M+ was way faster and easier to acquire gear to the point where normal/heroic raiding was almost pointless.

Having clearly defined metrics that let's a player know they're done with some form of content is a good thing and healthy for the game. Endless treadmill content and vague/ambigious goals may keep people playing in the short term, but long term many will get burnt out to where the game isn't fun anymore and/or just quit. A lot of these loot changes are being implemented not only to fix the loot hierarchy in the game to a better balanced system, but also to allow players to actually be done with content instead of constantly strung along by systems that tell you to keep coming back. Even a lot of the original WoW developers will tell you that their content was designed to be enjoyed for when it was relevant to you, and disposed of when you were done with it, rather than trying to keep you going back to content you already finished. While we sometimes talk about the effects of infinite/treadmill content on the forums, this concept is no secret to developers as well as the effects it has on the players.

Fair point, that makes sense. Im not so sure that m+ overall helps the game in the long run though. As you said, it devalues the whole normal/hc raiding scene, well atleast normal.

I totally agree with having forms of progressions that ends instead of a everlasting treadmill. We are going into a new xpac with m+ and the overall sentiment towards this content went down in BfA. It was very welcomed in Legion cause it was new. Then in BfA it was more of the same and people started doing bare minimum, got boosted or left it alone.

[Kralljin]

Everyone I've ever seen who raids plans around raiding with their guild.

...makes sense, doesn't it?

At this point in my life, that just comes across as really unfortunate, because those people often whine and complain about this nebulous "mandatory" nonsense they feel compelled to do like it's a some kind of important competitive sport that's going to get them somewhere in life.

This display of a lack of differentiation is trugly staggering.

"No lifers" have taken issue with anything that grants a power bonus outside of raiding as the enemy since badge gear was introduced. They're degenerates, the lot of them.

Oh boy, the best part about a simplistic world view is that you always know whom to blame for anything.


Yeah, i don't think this discussion is going anywhere, because you clearly see raiding or anything remotely related to organized raiding as the evil boogeyman.

[Advent]

...makes sense, doesn't it?

This display of a lack of differentiation is trugly staggering.

Oh boy, the best part about a simplistic world view is that you always know whom to blame for anything.


Yeah, i don't think this discussion is going anywhere, because you clearly see raiding or anything remotely related to organized raiding as the evil boogeyman.

Not an evil boogeyman, just a degenerate play style that has run this game for far too long imo.

[Kralljin]

Not an evil boogeyman, just a degenerate play style that has run this game for far too long imo.

I'll remind you that both Legion and BfA has probably been the most unfriendliest expansion to those people, so there's that.

The belief that the "Hardcore community" "runs this game" is just utterly bonkers.
Mythic raiding in particular has never been worth less than it has been now, thanks to the weekly M+ chest that also provides Mythic Ilvl alongside the Azerite Vendor which also provides Mythic Ilvl pieces.
Not to mention that this very thread is proof that Blizzard has moved away from being the centerpiece of endgame progression.

Taking into account that you, despite this, believes "they run the game" just further display that you see them as a boogeyman, because you just blame anything on them.

[mauserr]

I mean... ive been in quite a few mythic guilds and ive never seen this mentality take hold.

Must've been trash guilds then if they didn't let you have some fun after the raid was over. There's no reason to be all strict and shit after the raid is over. It doesn't even work that way in the top raiding guilds. It's always the bottom feeders that do that kind of shit and force people to do stupid shit "because it has to be done in order to clear the raid"...

In all the guilds I joined - raid is fully cleared? We're messing around on all the bosses except the final one, or the last two, to get our members some nice parses by doing cheese strats wherever possible, on top of that people were passing their spots on bosses, letting some socials in for a boost and shit like that. Raid schedule got more lax as we had higher clear times and didn't need to raid as many days as before, so we went from a 5 day progression week to a 1-2 day farm week.

[Chonar]

Hay guys what's going on in this thread.
I'm raiding because there's still a challenge to overcome (Mythic N'zoth). Also 'cuz I might get a sweet mount at the end.

[Advent]

Wahhh some players dont enjoy the game the way I enjoy it, please stop them! Thats how your logic looks like.

If the way they played the game wasn't so widespread, I likely wouldn't be talking about it very much, if at all. I don't mind that those players exist, I mind when that approach to the game becomes the default and the only widely accepted way to play the game. It doesn't coexist with other approaches to the game in my experience. I don't want them to be stopped, I'd like some things to be less prevalent and far-reaching so that the game can be played in a multitude of different ways without the end-game being "You're not X, you do not belong. Get out." The wider community has adopted this mentality from what I've gathered, and it has caused an extreme amount of friction in various parts of the game over the years.

Taking into account that you, despite this, believes "they run the game" just further display that you see them as a boogeyman, because you just blame anything on them.

I specifically mean the mentality they created in the community runs this game. As far as blaming anything on them, not quite. I'd only blame them for the community they've fostered, but not everything. As far as I'm concerned, anything to do with class design changes strictly on a basis of performance, I lay the blame at their feet. If Blizzard were to change the game's design as a direct result of them not being capable of making mature decisions and taking responsibility for their own choices, I'd blame them for it. My beef with raiding is what the hyper focus on performance has caused the general player to emulate. In my opinion it hasn't made the atmosphere of the game any more welcoming, and in fact may have contributed some to why the game may be seen as unfriendly and difficult to get into.

[ID811717]

I think a better conclusion to who you quoted is that there will be no need to grind M+ for gear, especially at the start of a raid tier. Instead, you can replay M+ if that's your preferred content, without having to severely mess up the loot hierarchy (which [B]was a huge problem being able to spam M+ for better-than-heroic raid loot). At most, you can grind M+ for the lowest level gear if you want, but that will die off fairly fast or won't be required if you do any form of raiding. Grinding keys will be more about opening options in your weekly Vault or seeing how high you can push keys, less about the loot at the end of the run, which means there's a clear choice about whether you should run M+ or not (especially in a world w/o WF/TFing and corruption). For many raiders, M+ was way faster and easier to acquire gear to the point where normal/heroic raiding was almost pointless.

You seem to imply that end-of-run M+ reward will have a lower ilvl than from HC raiding. Is that confirmed somewhere, or is that just wishful thinking?

If all of this refers just to a single drop from end-of-run: that change fixes nothing. Over the past 2 expansions a dedicated no-lifer could get a full set of M+ end-of-run gear within 2-3 evenings of hard farming at the start of a patch. With 3x less loot it will take, what, like 8-9 days instead? Some people will just farm harder, and still get it done within 4-7 days. This change alone will make sure the no-lifers burn out faster, and the casuals fall behind on gear more.

[Kralljin]

If the way they played the game wasn't so widespread, I likely wouldn't be talking about it very much, if at all.

If it's so widespread, then that's a [You] Problem.

I don't mind that those players exist, I mind when that approach to the game becomes the default and the only widely accepted way to play the game.
I specifically mean the mentality they created in the community runs this game. As far as blaming anything on them, not quite. I'd only blame them for the community they've fostered, but not everything. As far as I'm concerned, anything to do with class design changes strictly on a basis of performance, I lay the blame at their feet.

The biggest fault in your logic is that you assume hardcore players "force" others to play that way.

Hardcore players find the most efficient way of doing things, because they enjoy this sort of optimization, this is simply how they enjoy to play the game.

Sites such as Icyveins or Bloodmallet wouldn't be as popular if the rest of the community says "I don't care", problem is, people do care.
They see that hardcore players are doing things much more efficiently than them, thus they start feel like an ass for doing things less efficiently and adapt these methods.

This is simply how humans are, the path of least resistance rules, the hardcore community are simply the people that discover the path of least resistance.
The rest adapts it willingly, not because the hardcore community "forces" them.

My beef with raiding is what the hyper focus on performance has caused the general player to emulate. In my opinion it hasn't made the atmosphere of the game any more welcoming, and in fact may have contributed some to why the game may be seen as unfriendly and difficult to get into.

Or maybe...just maybe, Blizzards serious lack of competence on the balance front does contribute to those issues.

It's a very easy excuse to blame the people that highlight these serious shortcomings, rather than the people that actually caused it.

People always love to tout "Oh, the hardcore raiders call a spec not viable even if it's just 1% behind!", that's a statement only a clueless person makes.
Because from my experience as hardcore raider, those specs that are "slightly" behind in theory are in reality much further behind because they on top of their worse sim dps, also lack mobility (which makes their dps even worse in reality) unique support tools or utility such as immunities that give them much more flexibility.

This is the real issue of class balance you see on top end, generally speaking, the worse a spec sims, the less utility they usually have and the less flexible they are.
And if you now think "oh, that's sounds really stupid and imbalanced", you discover the reason why those Meta classes are favored by so many people.

Again, path of least resistance, certain specs simply require less effort for same or even better results.

Also, due to Blizzard consistently giving the social focus of the game the middle finger in favor of PUG groups, this issue has increased tenfold, because in more social guilds and parties, you can play a subpar spec because people want to play with the person behind the character, in a PUG group, your character performance is all that matters.

However, for a social group such as a guild, you need to abide by a certain schedule, because almost any social structure relies on consistent activities.
And because Blizzard has removed any incentive to form a social structure within the game outside of (and that's the real irony here) Mythic raiding and pushing high M+ keys, no one on the lower level forms any social structures anymore.

[goldlock]

Must've been trash guilds then if they didn't let you have some fun after the raid was over. There's no reason to be all strict and shit after the raid is over. It doesn't even work that way in the top raiding guilds. It's always the bottom feeders that do that kind of shit and force people to do stupid shit "because it has to be done in order to clear the raid"...

In all the guilds I joined - raid is fully cleared? We're messing around on all the bosses except the final one, or the last two, to get our members some nice parses by doing cheese strats wherever possible, on top of that people were passing their spots on bosses, letting some socials in for a boost and shit like that. Raid schedule got more lax as we had higher clear times and didn't need to raid as many days as before, so we went from a 5 day progression week to a 1-2 day farm week.

We just do sales and line our pockets and refill the gbank for the next tier then play other games.

[rhorle]

Because of no lifers we have endless content. I miss the days where you could get maxed out, then you could take a pause til next patch or exp.

People need to just learn to set limits. Endless content exists because Blizzard wants you to keep playing. If you want the old days of doing X and being done then all you simply have to do is set a goal. And stop when you reach that goal.

[Baconeggcheese]

I guess I get it. We're just two very different kinds of players I suppose. I think I'd get bored if all I was doing was sitting in an instance all day, with nothing outside of it worth doing.

But that's the point, I'm not sitting in an instance all day. I'm in the instance exactly as long as I want to be to get the content I enjoy done, and then I go do other more enjoyable things than dailies I've long since progressed past where I just run around and 1tap enemies that weren't even threatening back at the start of the xpac.

I don't devote myself to one game either. Not anymore, anyway. I think the draw of an MMO to me, is the ability to fall off in it and get lost. If I always have something telling me to stop and go do something else, I'm probably going to take the hint and not come back. I'm interested in other games as well, but when it comes to an MMO, I'd want something that can hold my attention longer than a week at a time. It's part of why I can't stick with FF14 for long. People say it "Respects their time", but to me all I hear is "You're done, get out." from the game.

Yeah I just don't feel that way, because again I don't need it to be my only game for whatever arbitrary amount of time. I have no issue popping in, accomplishing the things I want to, and then popping out. I don't need those things to take me an entire week, but if I want them to I definitely can.

Its no different than me only raiding say 2-3 days a week for less hours per day vs my old 5 day full time job schedule for raiding I used to do. Just because I'm only raiding 2-3 days of the week doesn't suddenly mean the game is trying to eject me from it.

[Gaidax]

Right now I pretty much do something like ~3-4 hours of WoW per week.

Out of that ~2 hours and a bit to re-clear M12/12, which is mostly a social thing with memes and stuff in guild discord chat spiced up by occasional silly wipe/s and some funny bits that inevitably happen during reclear. Then I either do one M+ with guildies -or- just some solo stuff if I want, right now I'm capped on everything meaningful anyway, so it's mostly like "I'm bored let's just do some emissary or something".

Rest of the time is RL or other game or two, mostly CRPGs and such. For me WoW does what WoW is supposed to do, it's not some second life, it's just a good game that I like, really.

[Twdft]

Because of no lifers we have endless content. I miss the days where you could get maxed out, then you could take a pause til next patch or exp.

You still can.

That's the lesson everyone should have taken to heart in Legion: just because endless grinds exist doesn't mean you have to do them. Pre Legion the game decides when your character is maxed out, now you have to decide for yourself. Looks like a lot of people are not capable of that and burn themselves out on endless grinds. Everyone else is happy to have something to do everytime they log in.

[RickEU]

A lot of gear though how is that meaningless

[Moozart]

Normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > Mythic dungeons > Mythic+

LFR raid > Normal raid > Heroic raid > Mythic raid

You could literally not step foot into a raid and play Mythic+ as your main way of gearing, never seeing any content in raid beyond LFR just to experience the story, and you can hit item level 475.

Want to experience harder content? time commitment. Grinding dailies. RNG gear drops. find a guild. find 20 other people for mythic. Do visions. Do world bosses. Farm for gold to afford to raid. ect.

There is a reason that WOTLK had the biggest player base ever in Warcraft history, the game was easy. There was meaningful progression, when you were done gearing in dungeons for that patches current gear, you would look to find a 10 man or 25 man normal raiding guild. The content wasn't that hard, people had fun being able to clear the content, or learn the content together with their guild. I remember Naxx being easily puggable, Ulduar also wasn't half bad.

The point I am trying to make is that there's simply to many ways to get gear. Raids used to have this feeling of curiosity and people wanted to explore them. Instead of making it widely available via LFR, you had no other choice but to either commit to a guild to see the content, or you didn't get any better gear. It was that simple.

I'd rather see a system like this again then the current. I came back after a 5 year hiatus, found a guild to do Mythic+ and start raiding, and cleared LFR Nyalotha to see the content because I'm so many months behind on my cape. SO many trolls in LFR now, just ridiculous that this game mode is even still in development.

What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?

I have come to the conclusion that people on this forum literally sit around and try to come up with shit they can complain about. Imagine if all this time were spent on something constructive.

[Osmeric]

Im done,its like watching a grown man fail at kindergarden math...its not a 15 ilvl difference,its 60 in bfa....its rly sad when adults fail at basic 1+1 level math

He is right, you are wrong. Please just stop with your silly nonsense.

[Relapses]

Interesting. I didn't like wod even though I was raiding. Spending the several hours raiding was fine at the time, but having very little worthwhile to do outside of it meant I spent a LOT less time enjoying wow, which made it a lot easier to just quit and not come back for a very long time. I'm not sure that's a good thing in my case. I'd prefer if I had a lot of small things to do because it keeps me in-game, and engaged. If the game itself is enjoyable, I don't mind what other people call "chores", because the basic gameplay is enjoyable enough for me to not even notice that it's repetitive. That's one of the reasons I was able to enjoy Assassin's Creed Odyssey, for example.

I don't think you're alone in that feeling. That's why Legion was such a huge departure from WoD. Where WoD had nothing to do outside of raid, Legion had... well, honestly, too fucking much (at the beginning). They've since iterated on the formula with BfA and I think it's generally in a pretty spot right now. It looks like they're moving even further away from infinite grinds in SL so I'm interested to see how it all plays out.

[deenman]

He is right, you are wrong. Please just stop with your silly nonsense.

I am not wrong,but again,im done trying to argue kindergarden basic math with people that seem to have mental issues

[Osmeric]

I am not wrong,but again,im done trying to argue kindergarden basic math with people that seem to have mental issues

Of course you are wrong. Let's go through a simple illustration of your wrongness.

Let's suppose we have four difficulty levels, and for sake of illustration start them at ilvl 300. They are separated by 15 ilvls each.

In the first tier, the ilvls are 300, 315, 330, and 345.

In the next tier, each is bumped by 15, to 315, 330, 345, and 360.

In the i-th tier, the ilvls are 285 + 15i, 300 + 15i, 315 + 15i, and 330 + 15i.

For each difficulty level, the ilvl increases by 15 from one tier to the next.

Now let's suppose we removed the lowest difficulty level, and shifted the others down 15 ilvls in the first tier. This would also reduce the ilvls by 15 in all the other tiers. But the 15i term would stay the same.

Where the HELL did you get the nonsensical idea that that first difficulty level adds an additional 15 ilvls every time the tier increases? It doesn't!