Did high end raiding guilds change or is it me?

[Demeisen]

I don't know how did you check, but I can tell you about my region (EU English servers):
PG - moved to twisting nether horde
Bleached Bones - is horde
Group Therapy - moved to kazzak horde
Alterac Deviants - moved to twisting nether horde
Inner Sanctum - still alliance
Polar - disbanded
Honolulu - still alliance
Arctic Avengers - moved to kazzak horde
Unnecessary Flame - disbanded
Whatever - disbanded
Member Berries - disbanded
The Inner Circle - still alliance
Eversio - still alliance
Halo - moved to tarren mill horde
Strange Behaviour - disbanded
Avalerion - still alliance
Loot FTW - moved to draenor horde
Consilium - disbanded
Eternal Shadows - still alliance
No Hard Feelings - still alliance
Phoenix - still alliance

So out of 21 guilds in Hall of Fame in my region from Uldir, 7 went horde, 6 disbanded and 8 are still alliance. That's about 1/3rd of the guilds surviving 1 expansion. What kind of goddamn lie is "I could only see one guild that transferred to Horde, and only a small handful who've disbanded" what kind of data are you even looking at? I went to wowprogress page of each of these guilds and that's the info they come up with in the present day.

You're right - the Wowprogress data is more current. That does show a disturbing trend for the Alliance high-end raiding scene.

[Gaidax]

Avalerion - still alliance

We had a small internal discussion on this and the decision is to stay Alliance, because we are stable for many many years and overall finding new recruits for a guild that is 300-400 world every tier at 2 nights x 3 hours per week is not an issue, even if our server is a bloody desert.

There would be some tangible benefits in moving to Horde, but overall we're fine as Alliance as is and we're a pretty chill guild anyway, people appreciate that.

[kaminaris]

They definitely changed, and I'd say it was the introduction of Mythic that did it. 20man raiding is now the only form of top-end raiding, and it doesn't really foster the same type of community you could get with 10man raiding.

Yep, that was the turning point.

Realistically speaking you just dont have more than 10 in game friends.
And even less if you consider friends that do the same type of content you do.

It is hard to find 20 likeminded people that are in agreement of what difficulty to do, how much preparations and effort is necessary and with matching skill.
This is just a developers child fantasy, completely disconnected from reality.

Those 40/30/20 man raids will feel soooo epic.
Maybe, but at what cost...

Saying "you just need to find likeminded people" is damn hard and people who managed to do that are fucking lucky.

[Saltysquidoon]

They definitely changed, and I'd say it was the introduction of Mythic that did it. 20man raiding is now the only form of top-end raiding, and it doesn't really foster the same type of community you could get with 10man raiding.

Literally the only time 10 man was "top end raiding" was during cata and mop and it was a massive shitshow that decimated guilds because "we'll go two 10man teams and just trim the fat" ignited a hellstorm of drama especially when those teams got hammered in the balls because blizzard couldn't balance properly and 10 man was harder for no prog or loot benefit.

Yep, that was the turning point.

Was it though?
Vanilla was 40
TBC was 25
Wrath was 25
Cata and MoP were 10/25
Everything else is 20

When was this mythical 10 man top-end raiding period?

You're right - the Wowprogress data is more current. That does show a disturbing trend for the Alliance high-end raiding scene.

That 'disturbing trend" has been happening since at least wrath

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Literally the only time 10 man was "top end raiding" was during cata and mop and it was a massive shitshow that decimated guilds because "we'll go two 10man teams and just trim the fat" ignited a hellstorm of drama especially when those teams got hammered in the balls because blizzard couldn't balance properly and 10 man was harder for no prog or loot benefit.

Trimming the fat was nice, I never liked fat teams. Not having time for drama was one of the best perks of 10man raiding.

Cata and MoP were my favorite expansions to raid in, because those were the times I was closest with my guildmates. It was much easier to connect with people in a 10man guild with low turnover(we only had to recruit 6 people throughout Cata+MoP), the social aspect of raiding was what I really loved about Cata and MoP. 20man raiding is the thing that really ruined the whole game for me, because it destroyed the social environment I enjoyed.

[Malikath]

Begging the question, if something is unable to be asserted due to lack of evidence a bad faith arguer will instead pose it in the form of a question then act as if there isn't a clear answer.
Which in this case, is "no, they haven't, you're simply delusional".

[kaminaris]

Literally the only time 10 man was "top end raiding" was during cata and mop and it was a massive shitshow that decimated guilds because "we'll go two 10man teams and just trim the fat" ignited a hellstorm of drama especially when those teams got hammered in the balls because blizzard couldn't balance properly and 10 man was harder for no prog or loot benefit.


Was it though?
Vanilla was 40
TBC was 25
Wrath was 25
Cata and MoP were 10/25
Everything else is 20

When was this mythical 10 man top-end raiding period?


That 'disturbing trend" has been happening since at least wrath

Since when wotlk was 25? No it was 10/25. TBC basically introduced 10 man raids and it stayed far more popular than 25 till the very end despite 25 giving you more rewards.

Yes, forcing 20man flopped it.

[Saltysquidoon]

Trimming the fat was nice, I never liked fat teams. Not having time for drama was one of the best perks of 10man raiding.

Cata and MoP were my favorite expansions to raid in, because those were the times I was closest with my guildmates. It was much easier to connect with people in a 10man guild with low turnover(we only had to recruit 6 people throughout Cata+MoP), the social aspect of raiding was what I really loved about Cata and MoP. 20man raiding is the thing that really ruined the whole game for me, because it destroyed the social environment I enjoyed.

Disregarding for a moment that you still can do 10 man raiding.

The point of my post wasn't to attack your subjective opinion. It was pointing out that making 10 and 25man 'equal' kneecapped the raiding scene heavily, on the whole, going from cata to wrath and blizzard was provably unable to balance it often leading to situations where a boss was many times harder or easier depending on the mode. Halfus Wyrmbreaker was a pretty infamous example of this as he was effectively impossible to kill during the first week of raiding on 10man.

Since when wotlk was 25? No it was 10/25. TBC basically introduced 10 man raids and it stayed far more popular than 25 till the very end despite 25 giving you more rewards.

Nani?!? Since we were explicitly talking about 'top-end' raiding? 10 man dropped worse gear in wrath.

[kaminaris]

Nani?!? Since we were explicitly talking about 'top-end' raiding? 10 man dropped worse gear in wrath.

And yet it had the same mechanics and still was more popular.

[goldlock]

Since when wotlk was 25? No it was 10/25. TBC basically introduced 10 man raids and it stayed far more popular than 25 till the very end despite 25 giving you more rewards.

Yes, forcing 20man flopped it.

I mean almost every 25 man guild did 10 man raids and they were easier this isn't really much of a argument. It is like saying scenario's were super popular because they gave a ton of vp for virtually locking your run on and slamming whatever the game auto assigned your 2 key.

Don't get me wrong I liked ten man but there is a very clear reason why it had more people running it.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

I mean almost every 25 man guild did 10 man raids and they were easier this isn't really much of a argument. It is like saying scenario's were super popular because they gave a ton of vp for virtually locking your run on and slamming whatever the game auto assigned your 2 key.

Don't get me wrong I liked ten man but there is a very clear reason why it had more people running it.

Despite 10man giving worse gear in WoTLK it was still more popular than 25man, for the very obvious reason that the logistics of getting 10 people together is significantly less difficult than getting 25 people together. The raids themselves were harder in 10man for some fights when they decided to eliminate the loot differences in Cata and MoP, due to fight mechanics or tuning (some encounters were harder in 25man too, Blizz has never pefectly balanced anything).

The logistical difficulty of 25man being the primary reason for people to prefer 10man raiding is a premise you seem dead set on rejecting, no matter what.

- - - Updated - - -

Disregarding for a moment that you still can do 10 man raiding.

You can't raid 10man mythic, so...no, I can't still do what I did back then. I can't enjoy the highest difficulty of raiding with a smaller group, because you can't do it with a smaller group.

[Celestraza]

I personally found that toxicity in a guild is also influenced strongly on the nationality of the players.

Somehow the most toxic and negative players for me are UK, Turkish and Romanian communities. After such bad experiences with these I now avoid them. I now specifically try to join guilds with a strong Scandinavian or North European core. Been pretty good so far.

In TBC I experienced two very toxic guilds. A British core and Arab/Romanian mix core. In years after well into BfA this pattern repeated itself. Especially Romanians, I have seen them flood guilds with their friends and then just keep the guild hostage or instantly destroy the guild twice now. My wife actually quit mythic raiding when we were in a British core guild, that GM did nothing but scream, yell and verbally abuse people. Even though my wife was never a target she quit becausenit destroyed the fun she had.

My most pleasant raiding memories are with Scandinavians. They tend to focus more on the positive and shun toxicity. Germans, Dutchies, Belgium.... Very similar as well.

[Akibaboy]

Dabbling in Mythic in 2017-2020
• The fights are a lot more involved and difficult that in the game's top-end fights in its first decade
• It's 50 / 50 on whether a Mythic guild wants to get firsts, compete with their server, etc. or just chill/have fun and take their time as long as they get Cutting Edge.
• Today there's a much more noticeable presence of social media / Youtube WoW and the trickle-down-toxicity of the meme stremers. You'll have to tolerate packs of people going "PREACH said this!" "Fleks says that it sucks!" "X is garbage because I heard a Youtuber say it!" ... and you'll just have to ignore them and play. I've beaten people on DPS that in the very same raid were telling me I needed to respec or play something else... or worse, they talk shit and then die in the first minute of the fight

[ThrashMetalFtw]

They definitely changed, and I'd say it was the introduction of Mythic that did it. 20man raiding is now the only form of top-end raiding, and it doesn't really foster the same type of community you could get with 10man raiding.

10Man raiding was cancer though, and basically killed off the majority of the raiding scene during Cata and MoP. The raiding scene only started to heal once 10mans were removed and Mythic added. And Mythic is not a new thing, it's just a downsized and renamed version of the old 25man HC raids...

The jump from t10 (ICC) to t11 (BWL/BoT) saw the single highest number of raiding guilds dying, ever. The vast majority of those were because of old 25man guilds "trimming the fat" and downsizing to 10man, with most of them dying soon after, when they realized that the grass wasn't quite as green on the other side after all.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

10Man raiding was cancer though, and basically killed off the majority of the raiding scene during Cata and MoP. The raiding scene only started to heal once 10mans were removed and Mythic added. And Mythic is not a new thing, it's just a downsized and renamed version of the old 25man HC raids...

The jump from t10 (ICC) to t11 (BWL/BoT) saw the single highest number of raiding guilds dying, ever. The vast majority of those were because of old 25man guilds "trimming the fat" and downsizing to 10man, with most of them dying soon after, when they realized that the grass wasn't quite as green on the other side after all.

It killed off the 25man raiding scene, yes. I would like you to back up the claim that WotLK->Cata had more raiding guilds die than MoP->WoD did though with some actual numbers, I'm not fond of believing in unsubstantiated claims about numbers.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

I got back into the high end (well world 900 but still full clearing)) and the attitudes I'm encountering seem so forgien to me. Previously I was in a guild from tbc to legion and everything was laid back. We hit world 50ish constantly and each raid night was laid back like a cozy pub with friends.

I returned during the last patch of bfa and the guilds I've joined have been almost Mercantile in how they operate. Massive benches are brought in full of people they never plan to use. Sale runs are pushed heavily for all level of content and their is a odd air of distrust between the members.

At first I thought this was a one off but I've seen it in more then a couple of guilds now and I'm wondering if this is the new norm or if I've had rotten luck?

Its your Wuf Wuf WR 900 guild that tryhard while being bad this causes frustration and what they try to do is to recoute ppl that can carry them but those ppl only gear up and jump into a way better guild its a Cycle.
My Guild in the WR 30s makes jokes even on progress wehn someone fucks up (like xanesh balls) Hell even limit did make fun of their players fucking up balls on a WF race you can look up the youtube vids. Get into a better guild with a leadership that has more than 30 iq and they wont tryhard/rage or tolarate it.

Personally I have similarly bad experience, i.e. forcing people to reroll to meta classes or benching them if they don't, ridiculing people for not min maxing to the smallest extent (like swapping professions or farming visions in groups or back in EP shaming for not farming benthic, forcing people to AP farm way beyond the natural curve, etc.), and generally post-Legion the level of tryhardness in the guilds increased a lot. Guilds at 300 world rank class stacking as if they were Method / Limit etc.

Not farming benthic for pregess is not some 1% dps you lose they rightfully "shamded" you for it, you lost like 15k out of 60k dps you could do with a full set of benthic gear that was better than any 455 TF mythic drop

[Krakan]

Its your Wuf Wuf WR 900 guild that tryhard while being bad this causes frustration and what they try to do is to recoute ppl that can carry them but those ppl only gear up and jump into a way better guild its a Cycle.
My Guild in the WR 30s makes jokes even on progress wehn someone fucks up (like xanesh balls) Hell even limit did make fun of their players fucking up balls on a WF race you can look up the youtube vids. Get into a better guild with a leadership that has more than 30 iq and they wont tryhard/rage or tolarate it.

It was and I've been in the 10s I know how absurd it seems but I'm in another guild now. Honestly the higher I go the better it seems to get.

I think my mistake was joining a obvious feeder guild.

[Gaidax]

It was and I've been in the 10s I know how absurd it seems but I'm in another guild now. Honestly the higher I go the better it seems to get.

I think my mistake was joining a obvious feeder guild.

A lot of it has to do with simple fact that the higher you go the faster the progression is done. For us, with our rank 430 it took about 3 months total with our 2x3 weekly schedule, I think.

So, like, it's not that we have been edgy even during progression, but now we basically have mounts for everyone and farm takes about 2 hours, so there is little point being anal about anything really. And we do not force specs and shit as is anyway, the only requirement we ever had was a single weekly M+ during progression just because it had a chance at useful for progression gear.

But even the more accomplished guild, the reality is that the whole "pressure" (if that) period is just a month and a bit long per raid tier, after which it's just chill mode anyway.

[Saltysquidoon]

And yet it had the same mechanics and still was more popular.

It doesn't change that 10man was objectively and intentionally easier than 25 man in wrath and ergo not 'top-end raiding' which is the point of any comment I made in respect to wrath.

Despite 10man giving worse gear in WoTLK it was still more popular than 25man, for the very obvious reason that the logistics of getting 10 people together is significantly less difficult than getting 25 people together. The raids themselves were harder in 10man for some fights when they decided to eliminate the loot differences in Cata and MoP, due to fight mechanics or tuning (some encounters were harder in 25man too, Blizz has never pefectly balanced anything).

The logistical difficulty of 25man being the primary reason for people to prefer 10man raiding is a premise you seem dead set on rejecting, no matter what

Of course, 10 man was more popular then 25 man, 25 man guilds can still do 10 man and as you mentioned the logistics issue is just not there. I mean M+ is more popular then mythic raiding and dungeons are more popular then raiding for the same reason. But I'm not (nor have I been) arguing popularity.

My arguments are as follows;
1. Normalising 10/25 had a massive net negative impact on on the raiding community

2. Normalised 10/25 had a negative impact on not only encounter design but was also unbalanceable which ultimately why it was scrapped.

I'm not saying you can't have enjoyed 10 man raiding or that none of your points had any merit, I can even see your position. But ultimately everyone has to accept it's possible for them to like and thing and that same thing being on the whole bad.

[Relapses]

It killed off the 25man raiding scene, yes. I would like you to back up the claim that WotLK->Cata had more raiding guilds die than MoP->WoD did though with some actual numbers, I'm not fond of believing in unsubstantiated claims about numbers.

Since you're asking for numbers that really don't exist, I tend to go back to this thread (that was completely ignored when posted) where somebody actually did compare numbers from WotLK moving into Cata:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...LK-through-MoP

A few things:

25M was still more popular in WotLK than 10M. There were more 10M guilds but you have to account for the fact that there were 2.5 times more players in every 25M guild so the number of people participating in 25M guilds was still immeasurably higher.

The other thing that kind of fucked over a lot of guilds was the stupid "guild leveling" system Blizzard introduced in Cata. It was much easier for 25M guilds to get the higher level perks earlier and, yet again, this just made the incentive to raid in 10M ever more appealing. The only thing that's abundantly clear is that gear parity between 10- and 25M was universally detrimental to larger raid teams.