Do you think they are going to try to force covenant diversity in the worst way?

[Kathranis]

I mean, yes, but I think the notion that it's "forced" or "the worst way" is an ignorant way to think about it.

Game balance is already handled from both sides: class design and encounter design. And that's the way it should be.

Some classes are strong in certain encounters and weak in others. That means encounters are designed to reward some classes and punish others.

The ideal goal is that every class gets moments to shine so that there are good reason for groups to rep every class and nobody gets left out.

It totally stands to reason that they will take a similar approach with Covenants, especially since there are universal Covenant abilities that Blizzard knows every group will have access to.

That means that they can design mechanics so that certain Covenants perform better or get special interaction, and so long as these situations happen with the same frequency for each Covenant, there shouldn't be a clear winner.

You can even do all that within a single encounter. Have phases where the boss applies a bleed that Kyrians can cleanse, a platform that Venthyr can reach to avoid damage, a bunch of adds that leave corpses so Necrolords can make big damage shields, and an AoE that Night Fae can run away from. It wouldn't be balanced to require it, but they could each excel during different phases. The same idea applies to overall encounter design.

[MrLachyG]

well, it will likely take 4-5 months to fully unlock a covenant. even with catchups you are likely to have a lot of work ahead of you. and they will do everything in their power to not let you easily swap between them on a boss to boss basis.

its just not going to happen.

No and they shouldn’t. Swapping covenants for each boss is messy and time consuming. As I mentioned in my other post which had ideas for how to combat it, this one: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52561344

[Azerate]

The kind of changes like covenant specific dungeon buffs will definitely annoy competitive players. That's for sure. However, this doesn't really matter. What matters is how this will affect the majority of players.

If every covenant gives a massive buff in a different dungeon, or has a trick that makes a different boss in the raid a bit easier, I think that might actually work out and prevent more casual players from tunneling into the "BiS covenant". If Kyrian makes dungeon X way easier, Necrolord makes dungeon Y way easier...and so on, then no one really loses because every covenant has an edge somewhere in the game. True, for puggers it might make it harder to get into tryharding groups, depending on how much easier the dungeon gets with that covenant present in the group.

This is also a situation that can easily be compared to Tol Dagor in BfA getting easier with rogues and lockpicking. Sure, it does give an edge, but it's not like people will refuse to run Tol Dagor without a rogue in their group. Even if so, you only need 1 rogue, and you have freedom with the other 4 spots (or 2 dps spots).

Blizzard seems to be set on the idea of covenants mattering as a theme for Shadowlands, and I don't blame them. That seems to be the entire vision for the expansion. It would be kind of weird to get rid of all that just because high end players want even playing field for every player in the game.

[Sunslayer]

So, 3 bosses will have bleeds. 3 Bosses will require soaks. 3 Bosses will require you to blink 10 yards across some stupid crap and 3 Bosses will require soaks out to teleport. Sounds like contrived garbage and right up this Dev teams alley.

[Popokolara]

If you play with friends and not randoms 99.9% of these min/maxing elitist cock issues disappear.

thats trange my issues dont have to do with my co player say but the horrible game design choices.

[Kendros]

If you play with friends and not randoms 99.9% of these min/maxing elitist cock issues disappear.

You also dont get past 4 initial bosses or anything higher than +15 done.

[Orwell7]

You also dont get past 4 initial bosses or anything higher than +15 done.

And that +15 is being carried right now with Corruptions, I doubt a +15 (or even a +10) is achievable by those "standards".

[Segus1992]

Does this mean every raid will rely on bleed mechanics? (It is the only thing that covenants ability brings to the table since any other class of debuff is easily to dispel)

First, does that matter? Undispellable debuffs isn't exactly new, and if you're asking if raids will rely on tanks dispelling their own bleeds, that'd be making Dwarf and Kyrian the only tank choice, not making it more viable.

Mythic + if these changes go forward may not be doable on high keys without these buffs (That is beyond loot cap granted)

If these buffs work in M+ they'll absolutely require Covenant X (at very high keys) in the dungeon where that Covenant can give a buff, yes. The ideal dedicated M+ team will also want one of each ideally, but that's way over the "intended" max difficulty, and it's definitely a better scenario than everyone needing to pick Venthyr.

Pro players also buy massive amounts of gold... should aspiring raiders do that as well?

Not sure how this relates. "Pro players" don't really do this, but rather the world first race players. If you want to optimize, you optimize. I can't imagine how the scenario of "everyone pick Venthyr" is better than "we need one of each Covenant".

[goldlock]

First, does that matter? Undispellable debuffs isn't exactly new, and if you're asking if raids will rely on tanks dispelling their own bleeds, that'd be making Dwarf and Kyrian the only tank choice, not making it more viable.


If these buffs work in M+ they'll absolutely require Covenant X (at very high keys) in the dungeon where that Covenant can give a buff, yes. The ideal dedicated M+ team will also want one of each ideally, but that's way over the "intended" max difficulty, and it's definitely a better scenario than everyone needing to pick Venthyr.


Not sure how this relates. "Pro players" don't really do this, but rather the world first race players. If you want to optimize, you optimize. I can't imagine how the scenario of "everyone pick Venthyr" is better than "we need one of each Covenant".

You bring up fair counter points. I admit a large part of my annoyance is the every increasing push for trying to make players stand out without them... well you know being stand out players.

I miss the days a fire mage was a fire mage and did what every other fire mage did and the difference between them came down to how well they pressed their buttons ( I realize fire mage is the worst example for this since its a crit based class but you get my meaning).

This world of wacky passive effects annoys me. Not enough to quite but enough to get me to largely not care about logs when competing with other players used to be something I immensely enjoyed. Now I don't know if I am the better player or if my passives carried me harder.

It might seem petty but what can I say I used to enjoy it.

[Zenfoldor]

I'm going with whichever covenant Icy-Veins recommends for my spec. I really have no choice in that based on my own mindset, so whatever Blizz does to balance out the other ones is an exercise in futility for me personally. If icy-veins changes, so will I. I can't even imagine another way to go about it. If I only ran LFR, I would still want my character to aspire to be the best, even if I never reach it.

If they want me to try a different covenant, good luck. They will need to change the meta.

[Krakan]

I'm going with whichever covenant Icy-Veins recommends for my spec. I really have no choice in that based on my own mindset, so whatever Blizz does to balance out the other ones is an exercise in futility for me personally. If icy-veins changes, so will I. I can't even imagine another way to go about it. If I only ran LFR, I would still want my character to aspire to be the best, even if I never reach it.

If they want me to try a different covenant, good luck. They will need to change the meta.

I would recommend your class discord. Usually they are more up to date then icey viens.

[Soon-TM]

They may try to "balance" covenants in PvE with all these gimmicks, even it still is quite lame as a balancing tool. Now, when it comes to PvP, gl Blizz