SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[bagina]

It doesn't make any sense especially when you consider recent quest texts that mention that you can take pretty much any form in the Shadowlands. Don't overthink it. The lore of this game is a human rights violation.

Of course, this is the most logical anwer.

The Necrolords aren't undead or Scourge, to a point. They basically have the forms they generally did in life, but also retain the damage to the forms done via incessant warring and also seem to have something of a fetish for moribund or death-themed imagery. The Necrolord constructs are made from flesh and souls, however; and substance of some kind does indeed seem to exist in the Shadowlands just as it does in the physical universe.

They're the scourge in all but name. I mean, no matter whatever fancy explanation Blizz throw at us it doesn't make it any less weird.

[Aucald]

They're the scourge in all but name. I mean, no matter whatever fancy explanation Blizz throw at us it doesn't make it any less weird.

They're technically what the Scourge were modeled on, in terms of the lore. Externally speaking, the aesthetic is very similar but it lacks the hive-mind of the Scourge and the figure of the Lich King. The Necrolords are basically an uneven mix of the original Orcish clans, the Forsaken, and the Scourge in terms of overall aesthetic. Their society is divided into clan-like "Houses," each with its own society and structure. The House of the Chosen, which Draka is part of in the game, is definitely reminiscent of the Orcish clans in that it favors honor and tradition. The House of Plagues is devoted to alchemy and thaumaturgy and is very Forsakenesque, although at the time of Shadowlands it has been largely destroyed due to Necrolord infighting. We don't know much about the similarly-destroyed House of Eyes, but considering many of its members were aranakk (a species similar to the nerubians) it's likely it had a strong Scourge/Nerubian aesthetic (it's where Vashj ended up). The House of Rituals seems devoted to Liches and is currently controlled by Kel'Thuzad, so it is probably the most Scourge-like of the Houses. Ditto for the House of Constructs, headed by things that resemble Abominations but are far more intelligent, more like the Mo'arg Engineers of the Legion than Scourge Abominations.

The overall look and feel of Maldraxxus also doesn't come across as very Scourge-like once you really get into it. The surface-level stuff like the architecture is similar, sure; but the people and overall feel of the zone is quite different.

[Nerovar]

They're technically what the Scourge were modeled on, in terms of the lore.

Don't you think it's a bit of a coincidence that both the real scourge and the SL scourge got their aesthetics by combining Undead themes with those of an arachnoid species? Furthermore, wasn't the original Nerubian architecture stolen from the Tol'vir? Does Maldraxxus also have Tol'vir? Did Tol'vir exist on the planet the Aranakk came from?

I mean, we're talking about Disney Star Wars levels of world building here. It's Tatooine but it's not really Tatooine. It's the Scourge but it's also not really the Scourge. Milk the aesthetics for nostalgia points and then give the viewers some shallow explanation they'll have forgotten once the movie/expansion is over.

[Aucald]

Don't you think it's a bit of a coincidence that both the real scourge and the SL scourge got their aesthetics by combining Undead themes with of an arachnoid species? Furthermore, wasn't the original Nerubian architecture stolen from the Tol'vir? Does Maldraxxus also have Tol'vir? Did Tol'vir exist on the planet the Aranakk came from?

"Undead theme" is a pretty wide-ranging concept - what exactly makes for an "undead" aesthetic? The repetition of the existing Nerubian theme is weird, I agree, but the similarity between them is actually pretty shallow. Maldraxxus has a lot more of a charnel house motif to it, with the buildings seemingly being made out of flesh and bone specifically. I was actually reminded more of the Kingdom of the Dead from Darksiders 2 than I was Icecrown Citadel or Naxxramas, to be honest - especially coupled with the Necrolords themselves. Nerubian architecture is actually unique and separate from the Tol'vir, as well; though they subsumed some ancient Tol'vir strongholds in Northrend they definitely made them their own (Azjol-Nerub and Ahn'kahet being very distinct from Tol'vir settlements in Uldum).

We don't learn much of the Aranakk in Shadowlands, or at least I haven't yet. There seems to be a few arachnoid races out in the universe, though; from the Nerubians to the Aranasi (who serve the Legion) to the Aranakk in Maldraxxus. I actually suspect the Aranakk may well be the race that became the Aranasi when the Legion turned them into demons, but that's not yet been made conclusive.

[Nerovar]

"Undead theme" is a pretty wide-ranging concept - what exactly makes for an "undead" aesthetic? The repetition of the existing Nerubian theme is weird, I agree, but the similarity between them is actually pretty shallow. Maldraxxus has a lot more of a charnel house motif to it, with the buildings seemingly being made out of flesh and bone specifically. I was actually reminded more of the Kingdom of the Dead from Darksiders 2 than I was Icecrown Citadel or Naxxramas, to be honest - especially coupled with the Necrolords themselves. Nerubian architecture is actually unique and separate from the Tol'vir, as well; though they subsumed some ancient Tol'vir strongholds in Northrend they definitely made them their own (Azjol-Nerub and Ahn'kahet being very distinct from Tol'vir settlements in Uldum).

We don't learn much of the Aranakk in Shadowlands, or at least I haven't yet. There seems to be a few arachnoid races out in the universe, though; from the Nerubians to the Aranasi (who serve the Legion) to the Aranakk in Maldraxxus. I actually suspect the Aranakk may well be the race that became the Aranasi when the Legion turned them into demons, but that's not yet been made conclusive.

How are the similarities "shallow"? The Scourge incorporated bones into their buildings since their very beginning in WC3. The architecture of Maldraxxus is pretty much a carbon copy of Scourge buildings (which wouldn't exist in this form without the cultural backstory of Nerubians claiming Tol'vir buildings which is why I brought it up in the first place) apart from their paint job. All the fungal stuff is just reminiscent of Eastern Plagueland themes (maybe the Scourge planted giant mushrooms there on purpose because they were such big fans of the Maldraxxus look™).

The Kingdom of the Dead from Darksiders 2 looks more like Revendreth/Maw material in my opinion (the buildings have a much more human, castle like look).

[Aucald]

How are the similarities "shallow"? The Scourge incorporated bones into their buildings since their very beginning in WC3. The architecture of Maldraxxus is pretty much a carbon copy of Scourge buildings (which wouldn't exist in this form without the cultural backstory of Nerubians claiming Tol'vir buildings which is why I brought it up in the first place) apart from their paint job. All the fungal stuff is just reminiscent of Eastern Plagueland themes (maybe the Scourge planted giant mushrooms there on purpose because they were such big fans of the Maldraxxus look™).

The Kingdom of the Dead from Darksiders 2 looks more like Revendreth/Maw material in my opinion (the buildings have much more human, castle like look).

"Shallow" in that the architecture is all the have in common, and even that has a number of differences as it's not really a 1:1 copy. Maldraxxus' architecture is a lot more organic in look, generally a different palette, and much cruder overall. Kind of the similar distance between the Scourge ziggurats of WC3/Classic to the look of Icecrown Citadel with its Saronite spikes and gray/blue palette. I wouldn't say they're not similar or obviously related, but they're not a carbon copy by any means.

[Daronokk]

The overall look and feel of Maldraxxus also doesn't come across as very Scourge-like once you really get into it. The surface-level stuff like the architecture is similar, sure; but the people and overall feel of the zone is quite different.

This is really stretching things. You're denying it's extremely heavily Scourge themed?

If the underlying story is very different from the Scourge then Blizzard could've removed all the needless skeleton bullshit and make a proper 'Honor' afterlife. This would give the Horde races a proper tie-in to the expansion as well because currently it feels an exclusive Alliance expansion.

[Nerovar]

"Shallow" in that the architecture is all the have in common, and even that has a number of differences as it's not really a 1:1 copy. Maldraxxus' architecture is a lot more organic in look, generally a different palette, and much cruder overall. Kind of the similar distance between the Scourge ziggurats of WC3/Classic to the look of Icecrown Citadel with its Saronite spikes and gray/blue palette. I wouldn't say they're not similar or obviously related, but they're not a carbon copy by any means.

That doesn't really address the underlying issue of the distinctly Nerubian characteristics of Scourge buildings that somehow found their way into the Shadowlands. Blizzard already said that the Scourge basically stole their architecture (among other things) from Maldraxxus so the obvious similarities shouldn't really be a point of discussion. After all, they have a God damn Necropolis which we know are of Nerubian origin.

[Verdugo]

This is really stretching things. You're denying it's extremely heavily Scourge themed?

Nah, you got it all wrong. Its the scourge that is Maldraxxus inspired. See? True big brained moment.

[Mehrunes]

What we know about his time with the Farstriders was mainly from his POV. He might have been an amazing archer, but its possible that him being an asshole and a bully was the real reason why the Farstriders aside from Sylvanas, were against him officially joining.

Except for the part where Lor'themar himself talked with Halduron about anti-human backlash (going all the way to the rulers of Quel'Thalas) in reaction to him joining the Farstriders.

Nathanos chosing to live outside the city limits in spite of being officially sworn to defend Silvermoon, sending Horde soldiers to wipe out Helf outposts to retrieve documents on himself, specifically mentioning that he enjoyed ripping out the throats of High Elves while he was Scourge, taunting his nephew before killing him and stealing his body for a ritual, and his disrespect to the player (Champion of the Horde) because his super powerful girlfriend allows him to be, all points to Nathanos being a nasty person in life instead of a victim.

The only pre-undeath thing you mentioned here was about him living outside of the city. Which he did because he was made to feel unwelcome by the Elves. And you still had to add some smear about "in spite of being officially sworn to defend Silvermoon" as if him living outside of the city made him shirk his duties, when there is absolutely squat to support that notion and it was accepted by his superior. Also, Nathanos wasn't the one to kill Stephon and he didn't know upfront what was going to happen in the Val'kyr ritual.

I mean while bigotry sure is part of it, Sylvanas also abused her position to recruit a foreigner into a national military unit and place them in a position of command. That he is a human and thus much younger than many others of equal rank just adds insult to injury.

And what evidence is there to support your claim that Sylvanas had to abuse her position to do that, rather than it being a case of her simply exercising her powers?

Unless the rangers were absolute pussies I'm hard-pressed to believe that there wouldn't be pushback given how his presence was so tenuously suffered that he decided to live on a farmstead instead to avoid tanking Sylvanas's approval. I can totally believe he'd be a dick to Bob though, I think that's even canon that the two didn't get along at all.

Bob was Sylvanas' second-in-command when she was still alive. Given Nathanos decided to live outside of Silvermoon in part because he didn't want to negatively impact public's perception of Sylvanas, I kinda doubt he'd openly be a dick to his superior in the High Elven army.

[plz delete account]

Bob's obviously a bigot.

No surprises he dies, though a shame that it seems very one note. Nathanos will probably have a cameo in the Maw, but for the amount of screen time put into him it's still anticlimax. And the idea of Calia parading the undead night elves in front of Tyrande and turning her bland as well is cosmic horror at its finest. Everything she touches turns to crap.

Imagine being this uneducated about the fact Voss is the new forsaken leader

[Aucald]

This is really stretching things. You're denying it's extremely heavily Scourge themed?

If the underlying story is very different from the Scourge then Blizzard could've removed all the needless skeleton bullshit and make a proper 'Honor' afterlife. This would give the Horde races a proper tie-in to the expansion as well because currently it feels an exclusive Alliance expansion.

Well there's more to a "theme" than just architecture. I already said Maldraxxus' architecture was very similar to the old Scourge/Nerubian stuff, albeit not a 1:1 carbon copy. But beyond that similarity the social structure, individuals, and governments are very different, more akin to pre-Horde Orcs than the Cult of the Damned. It's a combat-based martial meritocracy, with a ton of infighting and a "might makes right" overall philosophy.

I don't really know about your whole "exclusive Alliance expansion" thing, there's actually very little partisanship going on in Shadowlands (for which I am personally grateful). None of the experience in Shadowlands thus far really struck me as Alliance or Horde aligned in any real sense - they all feel pretty alien and external.

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That doesn't really address the underlying issue of the distinctly Nerubian characteristics of Scourge buildings that somehow found their way into the Shadowlands. Blizzard already said that the Scourge basically stole their architecture (among other things) from Maldraxxus so the obvious similarities shouldn't really be a point of discussion. After all, they have a God damn Necropolis which we know are of Nerubian origin.

Like I said, the architecture is indeed similar - not exactly the same, but close enough. Everything else is pretty different, though.

- - - Updated - - -

Nah, you got it all wrong. Its the scourge that is Maldraxxus inspired. See? True big brained moment.

In terms of the lore, that appears to actually be correct. I agree it doesn't make a lot of sense, though; unless we're looking at a bit of an architectural retcon.

[Mehrunes]

They're technically what the Scourge were modeled on, in terms of the lore. Externally speaking, the aesthetic is very similar but it lacks the hive-mind of the Scourge and the figure of the Lich King. The Necrolords are basically an uneven mix of the original Orcish clans, the Forsaken, and the Scourge in terms of overall aesthetic. Their society is divided into clan-like "Houses," each with its own society and structure. The House of the Chosen, which Draka is part of in the game, is definitely reminiscent of the Orcish clans in that it favors honor and tradition. The House of Plagues is devoted to alchemy and thaumaturgy and is very Forsakenesque, although at the time of Shadowlands it has been largely destroyed due to Necrolord infighting. We don't know much about the similarly-destroyed House of Eyes, but considering many of its members were aranakk (a species similar to the nerubians) it's likely it had a strong Scourge/Nerubian aesthetic (it's where Vashj ended up). The House of Rituals seems devoted to Liches and is currently controlled by Kel'Thuzad, so it is probably the most Scourge-like of the Houses. Ditto for the House of Constructs, headed by things that resemble Abominations but are far more intelligent, more like the Mo'arg Engineers of the Legion than Scourge Abominations.

The overall look and feel of Maldraxxus also doesn't come across as very Scourge-like once you really get into it. The surface-level stuff like the architecture is similar, sure; but the people and overall feel of the zone is quite different.

Oh, right, I forgot about the Aranakk. They, among some other things, is what makes this whole "Scourge was inspired by Maldraxxus ALL ALONG" so cheap and utterly off-putting. It'd be one thing if the Lich King peeked into the Shadowlands got an inspiration for just some things like abominations and other various constructs. It'd still cheapen the Scourge and make the ingenuity of its members like Putricide go fuck itself, but it would at least be palatable.

But nope. Blizzard had to go all the way on that for no goddamn reason. To the point Maldraxxus has a version of pretty much any Scourge entity. It even has its own undead Nerubians, even though undead Nerubians are just undead version of creatures that existed on Azeroth rather than being Scourge's own creations from the ground up. It all reeks of "Member how Scourge also had Nerubians in it? Member?" nostalgia bait and looks like a lazy, unoriginal fanfiction that turns the Scourge into a parody.

Don't you think it's a bit of a coincidence that both the real scourge and the SL scourge got their aesthetics by combining Undead themes with those of an arachnoid species? Furthermore, wasn't the original Nerubian architecture stolen from the Tol'vir? Does Maldraxxus also have Tol'vir? Did Tol'vir exist on the planet the Aranakk came from?

I mean, we're talking about Disney Star Wars levels of world building here. It's Tatooine but it's not really Tatooine. It's the Scourge but it's also not really the Scourge. Milk the aesthetics for nostalgia points and then give the viewers some shallow explanation they'll have forgotten once the movie/expansion is over.

Nerovar gets it.

[Nerovar]

Like I said, the architecture is indeed similar - not exactly the same, but close enough. Everything else is pretty different, though.

In terms of the lore, that appears to actually be correct. I agree it doesn't make a lot of sense, though; unless we're looking at a bit of an architectural retcon.

I mean, that's pretty much my point. They are reusing Scourge/Nerubian aesthetics with an explanation that is either a pretty large retcon (Naxxramas and the other Scourge buildings aren't taken from Nerubians but were copied from Maldraxxus instead) or just a big old unexplained contradiction. Either way, this kind of world building cheapens and disrespects older aspects of the game's lore (of course all of this pales in comparison to what they're doing to characters like Uther and Alexandros).
Then again, it's not exactly anything new. After all, they also retconned Tirasians to be heathens just for the sake of doing something new and because it fit their pirate theme park.

[Aucald]

Oh, right, I forgot about the Aranakk. They, among some other things, is what makes this whole "Scourge was inspired by Maldraxxus ALL ALONG" so cheap and utterly off-putting. It'd be one thing if the Lich King peeked into the Shadowlands got an inspiration for just some things like abominations and other various constructs. It'd still cheapen the Scourge and make the ingenuity of its members like Putricide go fuck itself, but it would at least be palatable.

But nope. Blizzard had to go all the way on that for no goddamn reason. To the point Maldraxxus has a version of pretty much any Scourge entity. It even has its own undead Nerubians, even though undead Nerubians are just undead version of creatures that existed on Azeroth rather than being Scourge's own creations from the ground up. It all reeks of "Member how Scourge also had Nerubians in it? Member?" nostalgia bait and looks like a lazy, unoriginal fanfiction that turns the Scourge into a parody.

There's very little info on the Aranakk, but it's entirely possible they are actually the shades of former living Nerbubians or the Aranasi, which would explain their presence in Maldraxxus as its a possible afterlife. Given that we discover the Helm of Domination is linked indelibly to the Maw, and thus to the Shadowlands, I suppose the Maldraxxus influence is in part explainable - but I agree it's kind of odd, especially since we already had a provenance for the aesthetic of the Scourge (borrowed from the Nerubians).

[Mehrunes]

That doesn't really address the underlying issue of the distinctly Nerubian characteristics of Scourge buildings that somehow found their way into the Shadowlands. Blizzard already said that the Scourge basically stole their architecture (among other things) from Maldraxxus so the obvious similarities shouldn't really be a point of discussion. After all, they have a God damn Necropolis which we know are of Nerubian origin.

If the explanation given by Shadowlands doesn't satisfy you and makes you (because despite their cheap and illogical in-story excuse the things are completely turned around and it's Maldraxxus that's "inspired" by the Scourge as Blizzard is so creatively bankrupt they are not beneath ripping off even themselves), just you wait for the SL-meets-WoD expansion a few years down the line.

Where we'll learn that Maldraxxus was actually created by a time traveling Lich King from alternate Azeroth. Meaning that Scourge and Maldraxxus inspired each other and all issues with the current explanation will be fixed.

[Aucald]

I mean, that's pretty much my point. They are reusing Scourge/Nerubian aesthetics with an explanation that is either a pretty large retcon (Naxxramas and the other Scourge buildings aren't taken from Nerubians but were copied from Maldraxxus instead) or just a big old unexplained contradiction. Either way, this kind of world building cheapens and disrespects older aspects of the game's lore (of course all of this pales in comparison to what they're doing to characters like Uther and Alexandros).
Then again, it's not exactly anything new. After all, they also retconned Tirasians to be heathens just for the sake of doing something new and because it fit their pirate theme park.

It's partially explained by Bolvar and the Helm of Domination, which is apparently linked to the Maw (and to the Shadowlands proper) and gives the current Lich King the ability to see visions of the Shadowlands. This would make both Ner'zhul and Arthas capable of seeing Maldraxxus and perhaps taking cues from it (perhaps even subconsciously), though again, this is kind of at odds with established lore concerning the Scourge using Nerubian architecture and so forth. If that does prove the case then it'd be a bit of a retcon to the existing lore.

Either way, it's not really a huge deal unless architecture is your overriding focus in the game. Playing through the content of Maldraxxus I wasn't really left with the sense I was playing a redux of the WC3 Undead campaign or anything.

[Mehrunes]

Imagine being this uneducated about the fact Voss is the new forsaken leader

Except Voss doesn't factor into what @Super Dickmann said there in any way, shape or form.

[Nerovar]

Either way, it's not really a huge deal unless architecture is your overriding focus in the game.

I mean, it's obviously not. It's just that Blizzard used to be more thorough, respectful and creative with their world building and it's disappointing to see a franchise like this deteriorate.

[plz delete account]

Except Voss doesn't factor into what @Super Dickmann said there in any way, shape or form.

except he's acting like Calia is the forsaken leader, when in reality, she very much isn't.