For Everyone Saying Speed Clear Raids Are Evidence of Classic's Lack of Difficulty...

[deenman]

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I do remember them giving a reason for why it was "easy" - and i think it was AP, pretty sure you are right. Im sure they did address it, but i could be wrong.

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Well,there were a number of factors actualy that combined made EN go down

ap
legendery tuning(my opinion not sure if they ever said this was the case
insane shadow priest dps and being able to use the extreme surender talent twice
prot warrior healing

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Mate, I'll repeat what I said to another user, at least pretend that you've read what I (and OP) wrote. We're not saying RIGHT NOW mythic Nyalotha is easy, it's not and it took the best guilds in the world many attempts. I'm saying that, 15 years FROM NOW, when we'll be doing Classic BfA and we've done mythic nyalotha ad nauseum on p, servers, everyone will know what to do, probably will figure out a better raid comp, probably will have discovered the right combination of items and gear to clear the content super fast. Same thing is hapening with classic when we had 15 years to figure out, and dissect, the raids

even in 20 years from now,if they release bfa classic,no1 is clearing nyalotha day 1,because the gear needed,and heck limit used bilions of gold on bis items even,a normal guild trying to progress normaly would proly take a month even with perfect knowlege of the fight

[Bigbazz]

Well if 8.3 and mythic Nyalotha were released today it wouldn't be cleared in a few hours because its not possible to hit the DPS needed with 445 gear and zero corruptions. If you gave them a week of prep time, Limit may be able to clear it on the first day if they spent billions of gold on appropriate corruption BOES and farmed dozens of split raids (which they did for actual progression) . But 99.9% of other guilds would still have to farm up the necessary gear first.

Well you can consider the updated 1.12 versions of classes and far better geared raids/guilds with perfect consumable/world buff optimisation as covering that, consumables and world buffs in classic by themselves are a massive bonus. People going into AQ40 were very overgeared or overbuffed and playing stronger versions of classes (from a birds eye view) compared to intended original difficulty.

Obviously Mythic is a lot harder, but it's very silly to look at this as if the raids were cleared in a few hours and not look at it like 15 years of practice and optimisation, which is what it was. Many of those players also probably cleared the raid on a private server to practice days before it released on Classic.

[munkeyinorbit]

People tend to forget that it was all done with 1.12.1 talents/gear/items. Why Blizzard did this is a testament to how terrible of a company they have gotten, plain and simple. Nostalrius did this with pre-nerf values in place, pre item adjustments in place - you name it. It was so much of a better experience it's hard to say.

You mean with the account scamming and pay to win? Bugs that were introduced, incorrect values, warnings to ban people from taking advantage of bugs. It was well know that there was a spec iwhere the top dps spec for a hunter was gearing all spell damage. How is this better than blizzard? It must've been the gearscore mentality that retail doesn't have anymore.

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The ppl clearing it arent that bad imo, and they most certanly know what few mechanics there are be4 going in. Id say its roughly on the level of hc raids on retail. Takes a little effort and knowing mechanics, but are very lenient in dps/hps tuning.

Naxx might be slightly harder, we will see. either way its not the end of the world for me. Just a fun trip back memory lane.

TBH, the players that were pug clearing on day one are pretty bad but they cleared content because the difficulty is LFR level. To even think it compares to heroic raiding on retail is just plain dishonesty.

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You're comparing Classic WoWs raids that have been out for 15 years and remade in some form over the years in special events or re used raids like Onyxia/Naxx and you're comparing it to a version of the game that has 4 difficulties now. LFr...Normal...heroic all get cleared within the first hour of release, just like Classic.

Sure, if you take the fact that people entering these raids overgear them already, have guides and videos about how to clear the raid, and have in game tools telling them about each ability and how much damage it does. Yes. It is totally different.

The difference is that bad players aren't clearing them first day in retail. They are in Classic.

[Soluna]

Is there a specific raid tier in your minds (from TBC to BFA) that, given 15 years of practice and knowledge, could not be speed cleared in the same way?

Don't get me wrong, Classic is muuuch easier than anything current, and you can point to a 100 different reasons why. But the fact that guilds are killing the final boss in under an hour really isn't one of them in my opinion.

Mythic Nyalotha hasn't been out for much longer than half a year, and there are already sub 80minute Runs. Probably even faster ones that we don't know about. I promise with an ample of time of research, every single raid tier would look like how AQ40 is looking now for the top Classic guilds.



There really isn't much point to this thread as, at the end of the day, Classic is still easier than the expansions. But I just think we often focus on less relevant factors when discussing its difficulty and overall experience.

Thanks for reading my rant

First time doing vanilla raids was with classic, everything from second reset onwards took 50 minutes or so to clear, with the exception of AQ, around 1.5-2 hours. Try to clear any WoW mythic raid without any prior experience in 2 hours on second reset. Good job on your world top 5 also by the way. Because that's what you will end up getting if you are that good. On classic you clear on day it released and you get rank 300 lol. Also C'thun took me 2 tries with no prior xp other than checking a guide for 10 mins, and that's cause his eye beam went through wall on one of the tries, killing half the raid before they even got the chance to come in the room, and no, they didn't peak.

Try beating N'zoth mythic (which is a joke mythic boss), by reading 10 minutes of a guide, in 2 tries. Good luck wiping.

[Vlaid]

The difficulty in Classic was always a lack of knowledge, lack of coordinated people who know what they are doing and reliable people. It wasn't the raid difficulty themselves. The mechanics are pretty simplistic but everything in Classic was pretty obfuscated by a lack of cohesive guides, knowledge or even agreement of what 'meta' existed in the game that we have today in abundance.

Try comparing any sport today to 20+ years ago and you'll see a similar trend of people just not knowing what they are doing or what is correct thinking.

[bmjclark]

The reasonable comparison would be:

15 years from now. BFA 'Classic' is released, with corruption available on gear.

The 'retail' at the time is proportionately harder than BFA, as BFA is to Vanilla/classic.

I think you'd see some pretty damn quick clears of G'huun under those circumstances?

AQ40 released in patch 1.9, which last I checked was pretty close to the end of vanilla and as far as I know, there weren't too too many changes that would drastically increase damage done after that and people are still blowing through it.

[OrcsRLame]

Would the likes of Meth- err Echo and Limit in optimized pre-raid gear tear their way through places like Antorus and Ny'alotha after years of practice and accumulated knowledge? Yes. Not in an hour assuming they are geared in M Tomb/EP items, but it will be much, much easier than the first time around when they were figuring out stuff like the chains on Argus or the "secret phase" on N'zoth.

The big difference is that only the most elite of guilds have a chance at a day 1 clear under these conditions. Modern raid tuning is still no joke even once you know the drill. In Classic hundreds, sometimes thousands of guilds destroy the raid on launch day. That is not even close to going to happen for a modern raid, and you can't tell me all these people are private server neckbeards who have spent their lives in vanilla forever.

I'd like to see a Classic server with no world buffs at all, to see the difference. Of course I'm not saying it will happen and it would be contrary to the spirit of Classic, but as an experiment I'm sure disabling these buffs at least would restore some adequate difficulty.

Personally, I think world buffs are overrated.

One week when doing BWL we had our MT DC on Vael and the raid ended up getting breathed so we wiped and lost world buffs. BWL went maybe 10 minutes slower and we had a couple extra deaths here and there but it wasn't that much harder and people were honestly kind of playing like shit anyway.

It makes a difference but it's a much smaller difference than going from normal to heroic or heroic to mythic in retail.

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The reasonable comparison would be:

15 years from now. BFA 'Classic' is released, with corruption available on gear.

The 'retail' at the time is proportionately harder than BFA, as BFA is to Vanilla/classic.

I think you'd see some pretty damn quick clears of G'huun under those circumstances?

Corruption in BFA is so powerful that it would only be equivalent if people were doing MC and BWL at 70 in Black Temple or Sunwell gear. Ilvl in BFA also jumps much more between raid tiers, with mythic Ny'alotha gear being over 3 times more powerful than normal Uldir gear. That's more like going from Deadmines gear to Naxx gear.

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AQ40 released in patch 1.9, which last I checked was pretty close to the end of vanilla and as far as I know, there weren't too too many changes that would drastically increase damage done after that and people are still blowing through it.

Yeah the main thing that changed from 1.9 to the end of Vanilla was they reworked rogue talents. All that a progressive patch cycle would mean is that rogues would be a meme class like ret paladins, which would just mean you stack more warriors.

[antelope591]

Well you can consider the updated 1.12 versions of classes and far better geared raids/guilds with perfect consumable/world buff optimisation as covering that, consumables and world buffs in classic by themselves are a massive bonus. People going into AQ40 were very overgeared or overbuffed and playing stronger versions of classes (from a birds eye view) compared to intended original difficulty.

Obviously Mythic is a lot harder, but it's very silly to look at this as if the raids were cleared in a few hours and not look at it like 15 years of practice and optimisation, which is what it was. Many of those players also probably cleared the raid on a private server to practice days before it released on Classic.

What you're talking about is fight knowledge, what I'm talking about is math. There are no buffs or consumables in BFA that make up a big gear disadvantage. Its simply not possible to do enough dps to clear mythic Nyalotha with only EP gear and zero corruptions. It doesn't matter if you have 15 or 100 years of fight knowledge.

[Laqweeta]

You mean with the account scamming and pay to win? Bugs that were introduced, incorrect values, warnings to ban people from taking advantage of bugs. It was well know that there was a spec iwhere the top dps spec for a hunter was gearing all spell damage. How is this better than blizzard? It must've been the gearscore mentality that retail doesn't have anymore.

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TBH, the players that were pug clearing on day one are pretty bad but they cleared content because the difficulty is LFR level. To even think it compares to heroic raiding on retail is just plain dishonesty.

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Sure, if you take the fact that people entering these raids overgear them already, have guides and videos about how to clear the raid, and have in game tools telling them about each ability and how much damage it does. Yes. It is totally different.

The difference is that bad players aren't clearing them first day in retail. They are in Classic.

That's crazy, almost sounds like you were describing Classic WoW! Guaranteed you DID NOT play Nost.

[OrcsRLame]

What you're talking about is fight knowledge, what I'm talking about is math. There are no buffs or consumables in BFA that make up a big gear disadvantage. Its simply not possible to do enough dps to clear mythic Nyalotha with only EP gear and zero corruptions. It doesn't matter if you have 15 or 100 years of fight knowledge.

Yeah, people that haven't played retail have no clue. Like, you boost a character to 120, get a little bit of gear, get some essences and you're doing a chill 25k dps thinking you're hot shit. Then you run with a geared mage and watch them hit over a million dps on AoE.

It's literally like you're a low level getting ran through a dungeon.

[Caerrona]

Seems the classic zealots are getting anxious that they won't have anywhere to move the goal posts too now that its only nax left. The amount of "BUT MUH CLASSIC IS HARD" posts in the last couple days is hilarious.

Granted the goal posts are already so far away Elon is gonna find them when he gets to mars.

[Bigbazz]

What you're talking about is fight knowledge, what I'm talking about is math. There are no buffs or consumables in BFA that make up a big gear disadvantage. Its simply not possible to do enough dps to clear mythic Nyalotha with only EP gear and zero corruptions. It doesn't matter if you have 15 or 100 years of fight knowledge.

You didn't get what I was getting at. I'm saying that people doing AQ40 now aren't the equivalent of players who are undergeared for the content, they are near enough as overgeared for the content as players who are doing Nylotha right now. You can't compare day 1 release Nylotha to AQ40 Classic release, you'd have to compare it to AQ40 original release. Classic AQ40 includes more powerful classes and better geared (overgeared/optimised) raids even setting aside years of practice.

Regardless of all that, under your conditions of pre-Nylotha gearing Nylotha would fall much faster than the first time around because players will have already done the wiping and learning.

[OrcsRLame]

You didn't get what I was getting at. I'm saying that people doing AQ40 now aren't the equivalent of players who are undergeared for the content, they are near enough as overgeared for the content as players who are doing Nylotha right now. Players doing AQ40 now are absolutely not doing it under the same conditions or with the same classes as they originally were, let alone the years of optimisation/strategy/practice.

You can't compare day 1 release Nylotha to AQ40 Classic release, you'd have to compare it to AQ40 original release.

Current Ny'alotha gear is so much better than release Ny'alotha gear, to be equivalently overgeared for AQ40 you would need to be level 70 and wearing at least BT gear.

You probably think I'm exaggerating, but that's how good the extras neck/cloak levels, corruptions and sockets are compared to release. It's a metric shit ton of stats.

[prwraith]

The quality of players has dramatically changed.

The rag fight for instance has so few mechanics that you could get 46 heroic raiders together to clear that in the first couple days let alone mythic raiders. Even if they'd never seen the fight before.

[Bigbazz]

Current Ny'alotha gear is so much better than release Ny'alotha gear, to be equivalently overgeared for AQ40 you would need to be level 70 and wearing at least BT gear.

You probably think I'm exaggerating, but that's how good the extras neck/cloak levels, corruptions and sockets are compared to release. It's a metric shit ton of stats.

Well no I think you're missing the point I was trying to make. Which is that nobody cleared AQ40 in a week or a day or an hour, it doesn't count in the same way that if they introduced a Nylotha raid race tomorrow it wouldn't count.

And your point is overexaggerating a lot, raids in 2005/2006 werent consisting of 90% geared to the balls Fury Warriors with full consumes and world buffs, because Fury Warriors didn't become that good until later in Vanilla and servers didn't have comparatively infinite player pools to recruit from.

It's just worlds apart. Nobody cleared AQ40 in 2 hours like a progression kill, they killed an old boss they have already farmed to death, and with an overgeared raid.

[OrcsRLame]

Well no I think you're missing the point I was trying to make. Which is that nobody cleared AQ40 in a week or a day or an hour, it doesn't count in the same way that if they introduced a Nylotha raid race tomorrow it wouldn't count.

It's not the same because in AQ40 we have practically the same stats as when it came out. The difference in power is miniscule, while the raid is getting easily shit on even by garbage tier players.

In BFA we have easily an extra expansion's worth of power since Ny'alotha came out and even okay-ish players can't kill mythic N'zoth. These are worlds apart and your point is moot.

[Bigbazz]

It's not the same because in AQ40 we have practically the same stats as when it came out. The difference in power is miniscule, while the raid is getting easily shit on even by garbage tier players.

In BFA we have easily an extra expansion's worth of power since Ny'alotha came out and even okay-ish players can't kill mythic N'zoth. These are worlds apart and your point is moot.

Your point is moot because I was never comparing the difficulty of the two raids.. And I even clarified that for you so why do you keep trying to argue this angle? There comes a point where I can't word the same thing in a different way and reasonably expect you to get the point, and you still haven't.

Are you going to just keep replying all night and ignore my attempts to point you back in the direction of what I was actually talking about? I could have used any raid to make my point, I could have used scarlet monastary.. Do you see what I'm saying here? I could have made my point just as easily talking about a different video game, or even not a videogame at all.

[Kikazz]

I cant think of any recent mythic raid-tier in retail where it has been cleared within hours of its release, as compared to Classic.

*COUGH* *COUGH* Emerald Nightmare

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Just curious if you even read the post? It literally says "given 15 years of practice and knowledge."

I can't think of any recent mythic raid-tier in retail that has had 15 years of practice and knowledge.

Even so, Emeral Nightmare was cleared in under 24 hours.

[chrisnumbers]

I don't know why this topic keeps coming up. We all know why. People know everything there is to know, even if they've never played Classic before, and when you remove hardware and connectivity restraints, there are no hurdles left. Every factor that made vanilla wow a challenge has been overcome.

[MrLachyG]

Is there a specific raid tier in your minds (from TBC to BFA) that, given 15 years of practice and knowledge, could not be speed cleared in the same way?

Don't get me wrong, Classic is muuuch easier than anything current, and you can point to a 100 different reasons why. But the fact that guilds are killing the final boss in under an hour really isn't one of them in my opinion.

Mythic Nyalotha hasn't been out for much longer than half a year, and there are already sub 80minute Runs. Probably even faster ones that we don't know about. I promise with an ample of time of research, every single raid tier would look like how AQ40 is looking now for the top Classic guilds.



There really isn't much point to this thread as, at the end of the day, Classic is still easier than the expansions. But I just think we often focus on less relevant factors when discussing its difficulty and overall experience.

Thanks for reading my rant

Classic/Vanilla was never difficult in terms of raids. The difficult part of Classic/Vanilla was levelling up and finding 39 mates to raid with you.