Is Classic too easy?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Classic was never going to be hard, anyone who thought so were naive and/or blind to consider that we in 2019/20 have access to so much more information and tools (addons, databases, simulations etc.) than our 2005/06 counterparts.

[Mendzia]

Sure, Gehennas, https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/guild/id/481425/

Hmmm...
70-80% players with WBs...
~30 flasks used...
~30 Zanza elixirs...
A few hundreds of various elixirs...
Shadow/nature GPPs...

And you 'your friends' did not finish it within 1 evening as you stated...

Sorry... but 'raidloggers, they don't spend hours farming for raids and still they cleared AQ40 in 4 hours.' seems to be 'slightly' not accurate...
My guild is exaclty like this - middle ground between casual and hardcore raiding 2 days a week with fun and very chill atmosphere.
We finished AQ40 yesterday in 7hrs total having most troubles on Twins.

[d00mh4cker]

Hmmm...
70-80% players with WBs...
~30 flasks used...
~30 Zanza elixirs...
A few hundreds of various elixirs...
Shadow/nature GPPs...

And you 'your friends' did not finish it within 1 evening as you stated...

Sorry... but 'raidloggers, they don't spend hours farming for raids and still they cleared AQ40 in 4 hours.' seems to be 'slighty' not accurate...
My guild is exaclty like this - middle ground between casual and hardcore raiding 2 days a week with fun and very chill atmosphere.
We finished AQ40 yesterday in 7hrs total having most troubles on Twins.

I cant talk for everyone in the guild but my friends in it play other games in between raids and only log for the raids, usually an hour before the raid.

And yes, sorry, they wiped 3 times on last boss and had to go to bed as they all have to get up to work, the next day they went in and cleared it. They are all in their 30s and 40s and have family matters and work to attend to.

Is this considered hardcore in todays standards? Damn.

[ClassicPeon]

An arcade game is online-only? Contra was literally an arcade game. It's not online lol.

And online games don't pay attention to how well people can play online? I don't even know how I can explain to you that this is the most glaringly obviously true statement I could make.

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See, there ya go, easier than attempting insults isn't it?

... Except how can you tell they're only actively inputting commands roughly 50% of the time and not just experiencing 3000 ms lag when every cast is 3 seconds long? Would 3 second lag not in fact prevent someone from casting for 3 seconds, making their inputs roughly 50% of the time?

Hmm i glossed over the first part.

1. The speed of the internet connection was almost never the problem. The problem was the stability of the connection.
2. We did not have access to the same information back then as we do today.

[ClassicPeon]

1) In most cases, these were one and the same. Slow speed = Bad connection

2) We didn't need access to six different websites with the same information. We in fact DID have access to 95% of the information available today. The few things we didn't have access to helped with optimization, but not with actually clearing the bosses.

1. I dont expect you to know this, i dont know your background. But thats just completely false. Those two have nothing to do with eachother.
2. Dont know about you but i had no idea where to go for information bis gear and builds - and besides that i had no idea who where guessing and who where speaking truth. There was a lot of conflicting information.

[Caerrona]

1. I dont expect you to know this, i dont know your background. But thats just completely false. Those two have nothing to do with eachother.
2. Dont know about you but i had no idea where to go for information bis gear and builds - and besides that i had no idea who where guessing and who where speaking truth. There was a lot of conflicting information.

Don't bother, your logic is just getting in the way of the narrative they spun in their head that every vanilla raider was a hardcore mythic elite pro world first quality gamer... BUT the ONLY thing stoping them was 10 second delays on casts.....

[Mendzia]

I cant talk for everyone in the guild but my friends in it play other games in between raids and only log for the raids, usually an hour before the raid.

In my guild there are requirements of WBs but if you collect them you are higher in loot prio and it works perfectly.
Half of the raid i usually without them and it is fine. Nothing wrong of showing online only for raid imho.

And yes, sorry, they wiped 3 times on last boss and had to go to bed as they all have to get up to work, the next day they went in and cleared it. They are all in their 30s and 40s and have family matters and work to attend to.

I am also in my early 30s.

Is this considered hardcore in todays standards? Damn.

No.
According to your logs some guild members seems to be more towards hardcore and other are more casual.
That sounds like a middle ground.

[ClassicPeon]

1) I do expect you to know this - The two in fact do have a lot to do with one another. Simply put - If you didn't have a good connection speed, you likely didn't have a good connection to start with. That already bad connection made your connection to the server unstable. Easy, no?

2) Thottbot and Elitist Jerks. That was it. There was nowhere else to go. Information wasn't widespread, and was often argued back and forth - But it was there if you looked for it, you just chose not to look for it. Like, there was an active raiding community in Vanilla, just because you missed it doesn't mean it didn't exist lol.

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I have literally never said anything about Vanilla even being hard. But hey, strawmen are easy to take down, I get it, just don't associate such ideas with me.

The stability of a connection is based on a lot of things. Speed is not one of them.

Now - its true that you can loose speed(because of packet loss) if you have a bad connection. But having a slow down speed has absolutely - and i cant stress this enough - absolutely nothing to do with how stable the connection is.

Whoever told you that is dead wrong.

[Caerrona]

1) I do expect you to know this - The two in fact do have a lot to do with one another. Simply put - If you didn't have a good connection speed, you likely didn't have a good connection to start with. That already bad connection made your connection to the server unstable. Easy, no?

2) Thottbot and Elitist Jerks. That was it. There was nowhere else to go. Information wasn't widespread, and was often argued back and forth - But it was there if you looked for it, you just chose not to look for it. Like, there was an active raiding community in Vanilla, just because you missed it doesn't mean it didn't exist lol.

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I have literally never said anything about Vanilla even being hard. But hey, strawmen are easy to take down, I get it, just don't associate such ideas with me.

Everyone one of your posts flailing about spouting false information was proven wrong.

You don't even know how a basic internet connection works.

Your getting real close to tin foil hat conspiracy level garbage so you do you, have a good one.

[Krothar]

Is replaying a game ever as hard as the first time you played it?

[Nak88]

Is replaying a game ever as hard as the first time you played it?

You're right, but for a lot of people Classic is a new game: I was a child who barely got to lvl 32 in Vanilla back in 2005. And there are A LOT of other players who didn't experience Vanilla endgame.

[Mardux]

1) I do expect you to know this - The two in fact do have a lot to do with one another. Simply put - If you didn't have a good connection speed, you likely didn't have a good connection to start with. That already bad connection made your connection to the server unstable. Easy, no?

2) Thottbot and Elitist Jerks. That was it. There was nowhere else to go. Information wasn't widespread, and was often argued back and forth - But it was there if you looked for it, you just chose not to look for it. Like, there was an active raiding community in Vanilla, just because you missed it doesn't mean it didn't exist lol.

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I have literally never said anything about Vanilla even being hard. But hey, strawmen are easy to take down, I get it, just don't associate such ideas with me.

Just because you didn't explicitly say it, doesn't mean you haven't been implying it in nearly every post you've made on the subject. Hopefully you can grasp that.

[Wylyth1992]

I think this is the most accurate and reasonable respone i've seen about Classic.
Very well said!

Thanks! I never played Classic myself (because I have only played started edition, haven't subbed yet).

[arkanon]

Please tell me the name of the 30yo game that is now very challenging...

Contra
Some of the Castlevania and Shinobi games as well. I can list more if you want?

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I think this is the most accurate and reasonable respone i've seen about Classic.
Very well said!

How ironic that the poster you think has the most accurate and reasonable response regarding classic said the following:

Thanks! I never played Classic myself (because I have only played started edition, haven't subbed yet).

So it would seem it takes someone who hasnt even played the game to match your opinion.

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... Yes, it does.

30 ms vs 3 ms is barely a difference.

100 ms vs 1000 ms on the other hand, is a much more noticable difference.

1000ms? no one was playing wow from the bloody moon mate. When you have to resort to arguing from extremes like that, its over.

[arkanon]

I don't know if you know this, but back then, 1000ms was not uncommon nor unexpected. "Extreme" would be 5000 - 10000 ms.

1000ms would be unacceptable today. This is literally the point I'm making and you're missing. Today's connections are much better than they used to be, and the game is built to reflect that - Because if it wasn't, the game wouldn't be very fun to play for most people.

Today's average ms is somewhere in the 100s - less than 10x lower. A very large difference between 30 and 3 ms.

Played since vanilla from the bottom of the earth, with no oceanic servers, and NEVER seen more than 500. 10,000? do you have any understanding of what you are saying? At all?

[munkeyinorbit]

I don't know if you know this, but back then, 1000ms was not uncommon nor unexpected. "Extreme" would be 5000 - 10000 ms.

1000ms would be unacceptable today. This is literally the point I'm making and you're missing. Today's connections are much better than they used to be, and the game is built to reflect that - Because if it wasn't, the game wouldn't be very fun to play for most people.

Today's average ms is somewhere in the 100s - less than 10x lower. A very large difference between 30 and 3 ms.

This looks like you found some YouTuber talking about the bad old days and how, this one time, with his band camp buddies, he got a bad lag night and had to "raid" with almost 1000ms latency.

You have somehow construed this with your mental gymnastics that everyone had this type of latency all the time.

My closest server until Panda was about 10000 km away. I saw 400 to 600ms as normal every day, every instance, every time. Never 1000ms. That's just stupid. No one in the world thought that was normal.

My advice is to leave talk of vanilla to people who actually played it. It's obvious you didn't.

[arkanon]

Dunno what to tell you. You can literally go look at any youtube video of basic gameplay from back then, I guarantee 90% are in yellow latency (250-500) and dipping into red (500+). And that's the people who had rigs good enough to record their gameplay, which was STILL uncommon back then.

You can spout your own experience as much as you want - YOUR experience doesn't speak to the average.

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I'd recommend the same to you - But like you, I don't know if you actually ever played, and I don't presume otherwise. Your experience simply doesn't speak to the average. Keep talking about YOUR latency, but what that DOESN'T speak towards is the average player of the game.

So then provide some evidence to support your claim, other than cherry picked youtube videos supporting MY claim that 500 was bad, not fucking 10,000 like you suggested. You just have absolutely no bloody clue what you are talking about - the quality of someones "rig" has absolutely zero to do with their latency. 10,000ms is literally a 10 second delay for each input. You are entirely delusional and making shit up - ppl were not playing with 1000-10,000ms back in vanilla, and they CERTAINLY would not have been in a raid team.

You are just making numbers up "oh yeah the average back then was 1000-10,000ms and now its 100ms - just trust me, im not just making those numbers up, its totally fact based."

[Will]

Dunno what to tell you. You can literally go look at any youtube video of basic gameplay from back then, I guarantee 90% are in yellow latency (250-500) and dipping into red (500+). And that's the people who had rigs good enough to record their gameplay, which was STILL uncommon back then.

You can spout your own experience as much as you want - YOUR experience doesn't speak to the average.

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I'd recommend the same to you - But like you, I don't know if you actually ever played, and I don't presume otherwise. Your experience simply doesn't speak to the average. Keep talking about YOUR latency, but what that DOESN'T speak towards is the average player of the

FPS and latency are entirely different things, so I am very, very confused by what you just said. I mean if people were uploading the footage on the fly (aka streaming) then sure that hits their bandwith, but you're talking about people storing the footage locally, which has nada to do with their latency (internet), and IIRC back in the wrath days streaming wasn't a big thing, as people uploaded footage from their hard drives.

*edit* quoted wrong post by accident. fixed.

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Not this shit again.

People today spend hours gathering every buff available and install every addon that helps them play and then complain the game is too easy.

Play it like it's meant to be played instead of making it easier then! You don't need those buffs or addons to succeed, if you want challenge then don't go out of your way to remove said challenge yourself.

Y'know, even without buff stacking and consumable stacking, this old stuff? Still not hard. Seriously. Back in those days, we were SO bad. Like I watched footage from those days from TOP GUILDS and people had garbage APM, they stood in all sorts of crap, even stood around doing nothing productive mid-fight, and these were TOP raiders at the time. So yes, Classic is easy, because it was designed for plebs and not today's community.

And this same argument I am making would completely apply retrospectively, had they had access to earlier patch data instead, and not started on 1.12 balancing.

So yeah, we can go into these fights without buffs, without addons, 500 ms latency, AND on pre-1.12 tuning, and you know what? It'd STILL be piss easy. Simply because we suck SO much less.

[Ielenia]

Please tell me the name of the 30yo game that is now very challenging...

He just did? I'm pretty sure he named the game Contra, which was released in 1987. 33 years ago.

[Will]

Played since vanilla from the bottom of the earth, with no oceanic servers, and NEVER seen more than 500. 10,000? do you have any understanding of what you are saying? At all?

The highest latency I've had in those days was around 1,500. Do not underestimate how garbage British internet can be when you live in a rural area on poorly-maintained copper connections a considerable distance from the hub, with crappy ISPs. Even in modern days sometimes weird shit happens and I hit almost 2 seconds latency. Though I understand this isn't the norm, but at least anecdotally I can confirm I had friends who also had absolutely hot garbage connections, so while an average of 10k MS was rather far-fatched, 1k in those days, wasn't.

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He just did? I'm pretty sure he named the game Contra, which was released in 1987. 33 years ago.

yeah I don't know what they're getting at either. Plenty of retro games are crazy challenging.