For Everyone Saying Speed Clear Raids Are Evidence of Classic's Lack of Difficulty...

[Chromell]

Well, Classic is well known for having very simple mechanics. There are fights from following expansions that are difficult for being a heavy DPS check, or having tough mechanics (thus hard execution), or both! Yogg-Saron 0 lights comes to mind. I guess we'll only be able to see if people can clear it quickly if and when a WotLK server comes along (or if they move Classic forward into it). But of course, there are more examples in other expansions (Like Sintharia), but Yogg 0 is one that stands out for me.

[d00mh4cker]

15 years of practice LUUUUL.

I have friends who cleared AQ40 with 3 wipes total who never played vanilla or private servers. It's easy dude.

[iinverse]

You do not need to have 15 years of practice to execute simple encounter mechanic while maintaining 1-2 buttons rotation.

[Amaterasu65]

I cant think of any recent mythic raid-tier in retail where it has been cleared within hours of its release, as compared to Classic.

Do you think before you type?

[Amaterasu65]

Do you wipe your ass before you take a dump?

Ok then /10.

[Bigcountry11782]

The fastest clear time on my server for mc and BWL is sub 45 minutes if i remember right i know MC is faster?Dude Vanilla was super super easy.most rare mobs in the world nowadays have more abilities than the raid bosses did back then lol I mean most fights in MC and BWL you never have to move as a ranged dps you just stand there and pew pew.The tanks have the only real difficult part and that is holding aggro but with the amount of THunderfury's out there that isn't even a problem.

[arkanon]

I feel like classic-players on this forum have a chip on their shoulder against people that play retail, with threads like this.

and threads like this:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...er-than-retail

Its really a shame, because many of us enjoy BOTH forms of the game, but personally, i find the classic community to be horribly embarrassing.

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Classic/Vanilla was never difficult in terms of raids. The difficult part of Classic/Vanilla was levelling up and finding 39 mates to raid with you.

Thankfully, you dont need even close to 40. 30 is smooth, 20 is perfectly manageable.

[Creedo]

Yes, classic is easy.

However, does no one remember guilds speed clearing MC and BWL back in 2006? This was normal and videos (lol break[.]com and Warcraft movies) were posted all the time. I remember a Death & Taxes video (and some EU guilds) speed clearing MC under an hour (sure not 18-20 mins like today). People were doing this then (at the top raiding guilds). This isn't news, but it is interesting to see how much faster people will get them over time.

[OrcsRLame]

Your point is moot because I was never comparing the difficulty of the two raids.. And I even clarified that for you so why do you keep trying to argue this angle? There comes a point where I can't word the same thing in a different way and reasonably expect you to get the point, and you still haven't.

Are you going to just keep replying all night and ignore my attempts to point you back in the direction of what I was actually talking about? I could have used any raid to make my point, I could have used scarlet monastary.. Do you see what I'm saying here? I could have made my point just as easily talking about a different video game, or even not a videogame at all.

Your point is about comparative difficulty, whether you realize it or not. Your claim is that you can't judge the difficulty of AQ40 because we have more character power on classic than the original release.

Other people have countered that point by saying that the difference in character power is so small that it does not matter.

You then tried to equate doing AQ40 on classic with doing Ny'alotha in current gear, and you specifically made claims about the difficulty and the relative gear level. Quote from you...

I'm saying that people doing AQ40 now aren't the equivalent of players who are undergeared for the content, they are near enough as overgeared for the content as players who are doing Nylotha right now.

So you are at best moving the goal posts substantially.

I would love for you to try and make your point without talking about video games at all.

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*COUGH* *COUGH* Emerald Nightmare

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Even so, Emeral Nightmare was cleared in under 24 hours.

By 4 guilds. 9/9 Was already cleared over 4300 times and AQ40 isn't even out on a lot of servers. https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zon...etric=progress

Only 34 guilds killed Xavius in the first week. About 450 by the end of the first month https://www.wowprogress.com/encounter/xavius-mythic

Mythic Xavius, by the numbers, is over 100 times harder than AQ40 on classic. And EN was considered to be a joke, and Blizzard admitted they grossly undertuned it.

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I don't know why this topic keeps coming up. We all know why. People know everything there is to know, even if they've never played Classic before, and when you remove hardware and connectivity restraints, there are no hurdles left. Every factor that made vanilla wow a challenge has been overcome.

It keeps being debated because people like you keep telling everyone else that it's because of knowledge when the reality is that these bosses are objectively very easy compared to not just retail wow but MMO bosses in general over the last 5-10 years.

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and threads like this:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...er-than-retail

Its really a shame, because many of us enjoy BOTH forms of the game, but personally, i find the classic community to be horribly embarrassing.

Yeah, I enjoy both classic and retail, but Christ the pearl clutching from the classic community is insufferable. The thing that ticks me off is how they act like they're agreeing with you. "Yeah bro, classic is way too easy! Now, vanilla, that was hard, but Blizzard fucked up the tuning on classic and people have farmed these bosses for 15 years so it's a joke!

[Eapoe]

*COUGH* *COUGH* Emerald Nightmare

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Even so, Emeral Nightmare was cleared in under 24 hours.

Emerald Nightmare was also severely undertuned as Blizzard even stated they made the numbers based on thinking people wouldn’t have all their traits in the artifact weapons unlocked by then.
They then compensated by making ToV more tightly tuned and harder.

[Mosha]

Do you have anything of substance to write other than being smug? Didnt think so.

I do but I don’t think you’d grasp it judging by your last post

[Bigbazz]

Your point is about comparative difficulty, whether you realize it or not. Your claim is that you can't judge the difficulty of AQ40 because we have more character power on classic than the original release

Do you even attempt to understand the posts you're replying to or do you just project your own topics on to them all? You keep going around in circles trying to make the topic about something else.

To judge the difficulty of AQ40 based on a guild clearing it in 2 hours as if it was the first attempt despite it being 15 years old, guild kills it on private server a week ago for the 50th time and then they log in this week and kill it again on Classic, such an impressive feat, such shock and surprise.

[WaltherLeopold]

When BC drops and assuming they put t4 and t5 into the same phase, like they did when tbc first came out, Kael'thas & vashj will die first week as it does on every non modified pserver.

Same goes for all wrath content, first ID/night clear on every raid on pservers, I haven't played cata so I can't really tell wether that occurs there too, but I wouldn't be surprised.

[Bisso]

Mate, I'll repeat what I said to another user, at least pretend that you've read what I (and OP) wrote. We're not saying RIGHT NOW mythic Nyalotha is easy, it's not and it took the best guilds in the world many attempts. I'm saying that, 15 years FROM NOW, when we'll be doing Classic BfA and we've done mythic nyalotha ad nauseum on p, servers, everyone will know what to do, probably will figure out a better raid comp, probably will have discovered the right combination of items and gear to clear the content super fast. Same thing is hapening with classic when we had 15 years to figure out, and dissect, the raids

I understood your post and OPs point. But you are still wrong. Back then, there wasn't people paid to crunch numbers, building simulation that runs hundreds of thousands of gear/talent combinations. In 15 years from now, on day one of mythic raid, it would still be quite a micracle to clear N'yalotha on a BFA classic server in under 24 hours. Just Stop. If you watched the race. You'll notice that by the 5th pull, they pretty much know what they are doing with Nzoth. They've already had Weakauras prepped from Heroic week. Hours of theory crafting. It still took them 200+ attempts. That's on top of min-maxing every piece of gear. Buying millions upon millions of gold worth of Corrupted BoE gear. Still took 2 weeks.

Right now in Classic, you read wowhead guide for your class, and show up for raid, and you still clear stuff in 1 day. How can you even compare those 2.

[Cyanu]

Is there a specific raid tier in your minds (from TBC to BFA) that, given 15 years of practice and knowledge, could not be speed cleared in the same way?

Don't get me wrong, Classic is muuuch easier than anything current, and you can point to a 100 different reasons why. But the fact that guilds are killing the final boss in under an hour really isn't one of them in my opinion.

Mythic Nyalotha hasn't been out for much longer than half a year, and there are already sub 80minute Runs. Probably even faster ones that we don't know about. I promise with an ample of time of research, every single raid tier would look like how AQ40 is looking now for the top Classic guilds.



There really isn't much point to this thread as, at the end of the day, Classic is still easier than the expansions. But I just think we often focus on less relevant factors when discussing its difficulty and overall experience.

Thanks for reading my rant

you're totally misrepresenting the case

retail content DOES get trivial after some months due to a number of factors (AP,weekly chests,titanforging, people farming the first few bosses of the raid etc) that all contribute to the players having much higher ilvl than intended and only AFTER those months you can do speedruns

BUT if you're competing for stuff like world 100th Mythic N'zoth you're practically hitting your head against a breakwall with hundreds of wipes being fully expected

in classic your first run is a speedrun...

therefor your 'rant' is like i said misrepresenting the issue and dramatically downplaying the difficulty of retail

[Tojara]

Speed clears are just a way for the 'hardcore' community of classic to differentiate themselves from the thousands of others guilds who actually clear the same content, with the caveat that true difficulty is how fast you can clear the raid. You either buy into it, or you don't, but you're an absolute moron to argue that the content on it's own is difficult in any shape or fashion. The difficulty of the raids actually do get harder as classic goes on, but it doesn't erase the fact that the progression cycle for somewhat determined guilds or higher is either non-existent, or incredibly short. Having to gauge how good your guild is by 'speed' clearing is something that doesn't happen on the live version of the game because there's actual difficulty on the live version of the game, and progression cycles actually exist.

Keep in mind my thoughts don't extend to everybody. Some people actually do 'progress' through classic, but that progression cycle is pretty short by comparison.

There's some pretty toxic shit that comes out of server discords, etc that 'shit' on peoples logs claiming that the guild they run in is awful and that they themselves are such a superior player. This for example is a frost mage telling another frost mage that they're worse at the game for hitting the exact same button, the difference being one gets more crits, brings a flask of supreme power and the kill time is way shorter because his guild has like twelve warriors. This isn't exclusive to one button classes either, and extends far beyond that. Case in point, if you buy into 'speed clears', classic comes down to almost exclusively preparation and raid stacking. Your raid can play exactly the same as another top tier raid, pressing the exact same buttons, but the difference will come down to things like, world buffs, consumables, class stacks and engineering. Classic is basically raid prep, and nothing more, there's very little 'on the fly' thinking that has to be done.

The amount of raid leading that has to be done is minuscule and most things can literally be assigned to a spread sheet prior to your run. You aren't clearing 'x' raid in 'x' amount of time like the 'top' guilds because your guild is bad, you just aren't doing it because your guild as a collective isn't spending several thousand gold or more to clear a raid 15-30 minutes faster. I mean look at some of the 'best' guilds who lost all of their world buffs do bosses like Firemaw, and sometimes wipe because a lot of people in the raid aren't use to actually doing LoS. Also look at how much the Onyxia scale cloak is linked prior to Nefarian (this is the only real instance of raid leading you have to do in BWL).

I actually love classic, but I didn't come back to spend 30 to 45 minutes one to two times a week just to say "see you next week" to the people I raid with. My guild encourages people to get consumables and shit, but it's not necessary by any means. We aren't going to walk a tight line to skip a couple trash packs, forbid people to take a shit mid raid, or have people spend a couple hundred gold using a petrification flask so that we can skip a few trash packs to make the raid 10 minutes faster.

Some of the arguments in here aren't very sound at all, and people will witness this as they move beyond classic WoW too. Even if you exclude world buffs, Vanilla WoW as a whole is an absolute disaster when it comes to actual balance. There's hardly any enrage timers and certain consumables are so powerful, that it's obvious they either overshot the mark on them, or never expected raids to come fully flasks (supreme powers value spell power wise, would've been better than WoTLK caster flasks if they never nerfed it in TBC).

If TBC is released (and it will), it's going to get destroyed as well, but not nearly as much as what we witnessed in classic. Knowledge or not, there are actual mechanics present in the vast majority of TBC raids, and while you can certainly class stack to some extent in TBC, it's not going to be anywhere near the levels of what we witnessed in classic. The raids are harder, far more rigid class compositions, and the barrier to entry in regards to the 'prep' game comes way down after Vanilla. Progression still won't exist for pretty hardcore guilds, but the amount of guilds that actually have to progress as we advance through the expansions is going to become higher and higher. Even if BFA classic came out in two months, people probably aren't going to clear everything in a single day like they do in classic, even if they know everything.

Also me saying that TBC and beyond will be harder doesn't mean that I don't agree with the notion that it won't be cleared on the first reset. It will. My only point is that entire servers aren't going to clear everything, progression guilds will be far more common, and the raids aren't going to all fall in less than an hour.

[WaltherLeopold]

If TBC is released (and it will), it's going to get destroyed as well, but not nearly as much as what we witnessed in classic. Knowledge or not, there are actual mechanics present in the vast majority of TBC raids, and while you can certainly class stack to some extent in TBC, it's not going to be anywhere near the levels of what we witnessed in classic. The raids are harder, far more rigid class compositions, and the barrier to entry in regards to the 'prep' game comes way down after Vanilla. Progression still won't exist for pretty hardcore guilds, but the amount of guilds that actually have to progress as we advance through the expansions is going to become higher and higher. Even if BFA classic came out in two months, people probably aren't going to clear everything in a single day like they do in classic, even if they know everything.

Also me saying that TBC and beyond will be harder doesn't mean that I don't agree with the notion that it won't be cleared on the first reset. It will. My only point is that entire servers aren't going to clear everything, progression guilds will be far more common, and the raids aren't going to all fall in less than an hour.

This isn't true though, since on pservesr that hasn't had modifiers to the game like intentionally gating t5 content or massively inflating raid values have seen kael'thas and vashj die in week 1 of release.

Same goes for the latter content in BC, but this trend continues into wrath pservers too, where every raid is cleared first ID, progression is generally incredibly short.

If you join a pserver guild, as a non pserver person you will see how fast you will get optimized, its not like pserver guilds or players have some special secret, they simply know the game and can teach you.

[vitor210]

I understood your post and OPs point. But you are still wrong. Back then, there wasn't people paid to crunch numbers, building simulation that runs hundreds of thousands of gear/talent combinations. In 15 years from now, on day one of mythic raid, it would still be quite a micracle to clear N'yalotha on a BFA classic server in under 24 hours. Just Stop. If you watched the race. You'll notice that by the 5th pull, they pretty much know what they are doing with Nzoth. They've already had Weakauras prepped from Heroic week. Hours of theory crafting. It still took them 200+ attempts. That's on top of min-maxing every piece of gear. Buying millions upon millions of gold worth of Corrupted BoE gear. Still took 2 weeks.

Right now in Classic, you read wowhead guide for your class, and show up for raid, and you still clear stuff in 1 day. How can you even compare those 2.

you're clearly delusional if you think in 15 years from now people will still take 500+ attempts to down mythinc Nyalotha. Just stop

[Packmule]

you're clearly delusional if you think in 15 years from now people will still take 500+ attempts to down mythinc Nyalotha. Just stop

Actually its probably gonna take 200-300 attempts.

Classic difficulty of raiding is litterly LFR difficulty. U can clear all the raids with people that never played together, thats gonna be much more difficult when you get to current raids.

Your delusional to think otherwise

[Tojara]

This isn't true though, since on pservesr that hasn't had modifiers to the game like intentionally gating t5 content or massively inflating raid values have seen kael'thas and vashj die in week 1 of release.

Same goes for the latter content in BC, but this trend continues into wrath pservers too, where every raid is cleared first ID, progression is generally incredibly short.

If you join a pserver guild, as a non pserver person you will see how fast you will get optimized, its not like pserver guilds or players have some special secret, they simply know the game and can teach you.

I mean, the bottom part of my post you quoted literally said that things will be cleared on the first reset? I'm not sure what's confusing.

My entire point is that the further you go down expansions, the far more likely actual 'progression' guilds become a thing. The progression cycle in classic is non-existent, or a couple raid days for some super casual guilds.