For Everyone Saying Speed Clear Raids Are Evidence of Classic's Lack of Difficulty...

[WaltherLeopold]

I mean, the bottom part of my post you quoted literally said that things will be cleared on the first reset? I'm not sure what's confusing.

My entire point is that the further you go down expansions, the far more likely actual 'progression' guilds become a thing. The progression cycle in classic is non-existent, or a couple raid days for some super casual guilds.

Sure, but my point is that content is going to be cleared first week all the way up to Legion when azerite/weapon power is introduced and you have to grind this in order to stay competitive.

This is where numbers actually fly off the wall in terms of tuning, because high end raiders will be expected to have much higher numbers than the general populace, so the tuning will follow likewise.

[Grimreaper]

Nobody in 2004-2006 was running split raids for more gear because it wasn't seen as really possible.

Not true.

Every tank was deep prot, there was no consistent fury tanking.

Not true.

People didnt start saving world buffs for raids until Naxx

Not true.

Like all of this seems silly now but there just wasn't the knowledge and resources at the time.

Not true.

There was a lot LESS players with all the info we have today, but they certainly existed. There just wasnt enough of those players on each realm to form their own hardcore guilds to clear every raid as fast as possible, and neither was there enough mentality towards it. Even all of the top20 guilds from all of vanilla had atleast 10+ raiders that really didnt have much knowledge or skill with their class, the only thing they had was massive amounts of playtime.

The best players of Vanilla were better than the best players in Classic, atleast from my experience so far.

[vitor210]

Actually its probably gonna take 200-300 attempts.

Classic difficulty of raiding is litterly LFR difficulty. U can clear all the raids with people that never played together, thats gonna be much more difficult when you get to current raids.

Your delusional to think otherwise

let's wait and see

And again, this DOESN'T MEAN current mythic is brain dead easy, it's not. When it's current progression, it's challenging and requires precise executions.

[Hashtronaut]

I cant think of any recent mythic raid-tier in retail where it has been cleared within hours of its release, as compared to Classic.

Well by that logic classic original clear times (vanilla) crushes mythic raid-tier difficulty. Didn’t cthun take months to clear when it was first released?!?

[Mrbleedinggums]

Well by that logic classic original clear times (vanilla) crushes mythic raid-tier difficulty. Didn’t cthun take months to clear when it was first released?!?

Aren't raids tested and fine-tuned in retail with PTR where the high end guilds practice whenever testing hour are open to find a strat to work? Oh, and also they're not bugged to all shit because that's what Vanilla was. Try harder.

[OrcsRLame]

Do you even attempt to understand the posts you're replying to or do you just project your own topics on to them all? You keep going around in circles trying to make the topic about something else.

To judge the difficulty of AQ40 based on a guild clearing it in 2 hours as if it was the first attempt despite it being 15 years old, guild kills it on private server a week ago for the 50th time and then they log in this week and kill it again on Classic, such an impressive feat, such shock and surprise.

So you're pissed off that you wrote about retail gear and got proven wrong?

My guild speed clears BWL and MC, (And will speed clear AQ once it's out on my server.) and as far as I know we don't have anyone that played on private servers.

[Tojara]

People didn't approach vanilla like they approach raids these days. Nobody raided as much or went this hard on consumables, let alone world buffs. Seeing a raid actually saving world buffs didn't happen until the end of Naxxaramas, let alone using full flasks on the majority of the raid. That and uh, most encounters were incredibly buggy because there was no raid testing.

[OrcsRLame]

Wasnt Cthun mathematically impossible?

Yes, with the amount of dps that Ion thought top players could do at the time. Top players can do much more dps now due to a variety of reasons. To name a few, better internet, better framerate, not being clickers, better builds, better raid comps, more optimal use of debuffs, more engineering stacking and better use of buffs.

[Biomega]

Things would be cleared fairly quickly, but not THAT quickly.

Why? Because mythic exists, and because gear matters more these days than during classic. That's why they cleared MC in quest greens with people not even max level yet. Even the best players in the world couldn't just go into a mythic raid from BFA with lvl 118 characters in quest greens and clear it (disregarding that you couldn't enter at all pre 120, of course). That's just not how it works, given the many damage/healing thresholds dictated by fight mechanics and timers.

Normal-mode raids? Not sure. Possibly. But then again, normal is designed to be a joke - in Classic, it's all you have.

[Bigbazz]

So you're pissed off that you wrote about retail gear and got proven wrong?

My guild speed clears BWL and MC, (And will speed clear AQ once it's out on my server.) and as far as I know we don't have anyone that played on private servers.

What the hell are you talking about mate? Literally, it's like you don't read anything anyone says and you just randomly insert a topic and your reply.. You having a conversation/argument with someone imaginary in your head and just inserting it into posts or something? Lunatic.

[OrcsRLame]

What the hell are you talking about mate? Literally, it's like you don't read anything anyone says and you just randomly insert a topic and your reply.. You having a conversation/argument with someone imaginary in your head and just inserting it into posts or something? Lunatic.

I'm just replying to your points. If you don't want me to reply to something, don't write it.

You said...

To judge the difficulty of AQ40 based on a guild clearing it in 2 hours as if it was the first attempt despite it being 15 years old, guild kills it on private server a week ago for the 50th time and then they log in this week and kill it again on Classic, such an impressive feat, such shock and surprise.

Or simplifying even more...

guild kills it on private server a week ago for the 50th time and then they log in this week and kill it again on Classic, such an impressive feat, such shock and surprise.

I responded to that by asserting that non-private server guilds also speed clear classic raids, so your point about private server guilds is not very relevant.

Now you're going to accuse me of not being able to read again because you can't remember what you wrote 2 replies ago.

[agentsi]

Is there a specific raid tier in your minds (from TBC to BFA) that, given 15 years of practice and knowledge, could not be speed cleared in the same way?

Don't get me wrong, Classic is muuuch easier than anything current, and you can point to a 100 different reasons why. But the fact that guilds are killing the final boss in under an hour really isn't one of them in my opinion.

Mythic Nyalotha hasn't been out for much longer than half a year, and there are already sub 80minute Runs. Probably even faster ones that we don't know about. I promise with an ample of time of research, every single raid tier would look like how AQ40 is looking now for the top Classic guilds.



There really isn't much point to this thread as, at the end of the day, Classic is still easier than the expansions. But I just think we often focus on less relevant factors when discussing its difficulty and overall experience.

Thanks for reading my rant

The issue with current raids is ilvl. You give a raid team, who's cleared that in under 80s, full 480 gear, they will clear it just as fast if not faster. In classic, ilvl and overall dps were much less important. The mechanics were so few that it wasn't hard to deal with them. When you see raid bosses taht during classic era, took 3-10 mins or longer per fight, die in under 30 seconds, thats a huge fucking deal. No fight in mythic now, even with max ilvl gear for that tier, would kill a boss in under 30 seconds. Unless you do like an all fire mage group or something. But no actual real raid team, can kill a current tier raid boss, in under 30 seconds. That trivializes EVERYTHING about the encounter. Which is why in terms of raids, classic is a joke.

[munkeyinorbit]

That's crazy, almost sounds like you were describing Classic WoW! Guaranteed you DID NOT play Nost.

Why not. I can't prove I did anymore than you can. I lost my account and couldn't verify the transfer after the shutdown. But that server was a PoS and buggy as hell. Classic is a far superior implementation. You know when you're logging in that it's at least authentic.

[Bigbazz]

I'm just replying to your points. If you don't want me to reply to something, don't write it.

You said...



Or simplifying even more...



I responded to that by asserting that non-private server guilds also speed clear classic raids, so your point about private server guilds is not very relevant.

Now you're going to accuse me of not being able to read again because you can't remember what you wrote 2 replies ago.

All that and you still aren't addressing what I was talking about. I'm accusing you of not being able to read because you quoted me out of context and then went off on to a different topic, and refused to get back on topic. I'm not going to repeat myself again, you keep replying to the topic you made up in your head.

Go back and read if you want, maybe you will get where I'm coming from instead of skim reading and filling in the blanks.

[exsanguinate]

We cleared BoT and BWD Heroic (except for nefarian) on the same week on release on a well known quality private server, because we did it the last 5 years so, when Blizz will ever release Cataclysm (Just an example), expect we are the first to do it. And if you haven't done it in a while, it is hard for sure.

People are doing this for the last 10 years since vanilla private server exist. I don't know why you ever would expect different results. It will be the same in TBC. There are plenty of really good guild playing on a TBC private server right now and will crush the entire content if it will go live on blizzard servers. Theres nothing you can do about it. Those people are committed and addicted with several addons for years not like us retail player who only did everything once.

[Akka]

The difference is, that there are fast clears now with BiS gear. Not with worse gear with the first entering of the raid itself.
If they would be that fast with BiS gear from that raids, okay, completely normal.

Classic has MUCH lower ilvl increase from one tier to the other (it's 10 ilvl between MC and BWL, while it's easily 45 ilvl from one of today's tier to the next). Classic also have MUCH lower power increase per ilvl than today (all abilities have a large baseline output with a marginal scalable part, while today the entire ability is scaled). On top of all that, the itemization is much less formulaic, so gear with lower ilvl can easily be as strong depending on how the stat are distributed.

All this means that using BiS from before a raid in Classic means you're nearly as powerful than with BiS of the current tier, especially compared to the ridiculously huge difference in power level from one tier of retail to the next (I remember my DPS nearly doubling from one tier to the next in retail, while it barely increase by 10 % or so from MC to BWL).

[Sithalos]

Classic isn't hard, no matter what you tell yourselves.

[chrisnumbers]

It keeps being debated because people like you keep telling everyone else that it's because of knowledge when the reality is that these bosses are objectively very easy compared to not just retail wow but MMO bosses in general over the last 5-10 years.

So we agree then. Different words, same message. I said "People know everything there is to know, even if they've never played Classic before." In other words, there isn't much to learn even for a newb. There is literally no debate here. Everyone knows this and everyone agrees. People think there's some profound argument to be had lol.

[Celestraza]

I have to agree with OP.

Retail mythic is also significantly easier once you have the gear, practice, knowledge, strategy and timings set.

Or did everyone forget Hellfire Citadel during WoD. Only after a mere several weeks people already came with their arcane mage alts and we had 10 second boss fights. Or did we all forget this? This raid had so many GDKP runs with buyers in the raid who would suicide instantly to be out of the way. Mythic was effectively also being done with 18 players instead of 20.

After many months HFC was more trivial than than anything I've seen in this game.

[Lolites]

Retail mythic is also significantly easier once you have the gear, practice, knowledge, strategy and timings set.

thing is a lot of guilds that cleared classic raids on day one had just knowledge, which in todays mythic raids would be far from sufficient...