So arthas was never holding back, the scourge was just weak?

[Segus1992]

...he's talking about lore, and you're talking about servers.

Seriously.

Let's be real - one matters to Blizzard, one does not.

We'd all save a lot of discussion and disappointment if the playerbase could just accept that fact.

[Saltysquidoon]

there is a video of the late great Stan Lee and in it he discusses what his response is every time someone asked him the question "who would win in a fight: X or Y?" and his answer was quite simple: "whoever the writers needed to win! If you have a fight between Wolverine and the Hulk and Wolverine needs to win, then he wins. If you have a fight between Kingpin and Captain America and Kingpin needs to win, then he wins."

If you're going to try and bring logic into a video game where, at the end of the day, we have to win then that's never going to work. As someone mentioned above, Sargeras was right there above Azeroth and could've destroyed it at any moment. But the Pantheon stopped him JUST in time. Why? Because we had to win. Same thing for Arthas and the Scourge, both then and now.

Somthing happening because the plot needs it to happen and not because that's how the characters in that situation would actually act, then you have just done a bad (or at least poorly planned) writing. A good writer would know ahead of time that wolverine and the hulk were going to fight and actually come up with a reason or tactic that allows wolverine to not end up being thrown into the sun.

The players 'having' to win is a problem most stories don't have to deal with true (although how much and how often players have to win is not as set in stone a blizzard likes to pretend) but how the players win is still entirely in blizzard's hands.

We'd all save a lot of discussion and disappointment if the playerbase could just accept that fact.

I think you'd probably save yourself some time by not posting in the lore forum then, as opposed to this totally new and unique hot take.

[Segus1992]

I think you'd probably save yourself some time by not posting in the lore forum then, as opposed to this totally new and unique hot take.

I didn't know you had to be into self-delusion to care about the lore. Looking at every event and thinking "how does this relate to the lore" when the event is very clearly a callback to an earlier popular event and nothing more. It's to trigger nostalgia and to be fun, I'd see it as a filler episode.

[Verdugo]

since Orgrimmar is one of the most impregnable castles on Azeroth.

It has a fucking side entrance with barely a gate and no battlements.

[huth]

We should remember that Bolvar's efforts were firmly directed at controlling and limiting them. It would be quite reasonable to assume that this includes culling their numbers.

[Timester]

Week One of the pre-patch and the Scourge is attacking literally everywhere. Besides few elite leaders, the bulk of the Scourge is completely mindless and without focus. So far, what was presented at the end of WotLK is being fulfilled.

[A Chozo]

The general consensus about the lich king seems that we need one so the scourge doesen't run rampart and kill everything and that we only stood a chance back in Wotlk because Arthas was holding back but this makes no sense to me now. What happened to the whole "We only have enough men for one final assault" that anduin said right before siege of orgrimmar 2.0? Surely we lost even more troops to Nzoth? How do we defeat a full powered scourge then? Magical poof, here is an army.

meh they even forgot that Kel'thuzad still had his phylactery but somehow ended up in the shadowlands

1 - The stuff about Arthas holding back was made up by fanboys and held as religious belief. We did defeat Arthas. Tirion broke that sword with one strike.

2 - They had few men when it was Horde vs Alliance. Now, both factions are going against this threat, and they recruited many allies in the past years. We are stronger, and the Champion is there with the Heart of Azeroth. We've defeated the Scourge once, we'll simply do it again. There will be causalities, but that's it. They were never undefeatable.

3 - Kel'thuzad is dead until someone resurrects him. Chances are the idiot tasked with the resurrection forgot the jar somewhere.

[Vakna]

The problem is that you're making assumptions.

[Timester]

1 - The stuff about Arthas holding back was made up by fanboys and held as religious belief. We did defeat Arthas. Tirion broke that sword with one strike.

Terenas Menethil II says: Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world.

3 - Kel'thuzad is dead until someone resurrects him. Chances are the idiot tasked with the resurrection forgot the jar somewhere.

Kel'thuzad doesn't want to be resurrected, Arch-Lich is his true form, one that he wanted even before meeting the Lich King.

[Frozenbeef]

I don't think they meant a greater threat as in the a mindless scourge running rampant , i take it as the lich king was just a force large enough to prevent other factions assuming control of the scourge ie the jailer et al using the scourge for their own means.

Now that the lich king has gone, the jailer and his minions has taken control and can use them to their own means ie slaughtering even more people so their souls go to the maw.

[darkoms]

Terenas Menethil II says: Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world.



Kel'thuzad doesn't want to be resurrected, Arch-Lich is his true form, one that he wanted even before meeting the Lich King.

In the Chronicle, Terenas says that the Scourge will simply do great damage to Azeroth. And you must remember that Terenas had no idea about wild gods, Aspects, titanic guardians, and so on.
Could the Scourge do much harm and kill many people? Yes
Can the Scourge destroy all life on Azeroth? Lol no
Bolvar was needed to end the war and avoid unnecessary casualties, not to save the world

[ClassicPeon]

I didn't know you had to be into self-delusion to care about the lore. Looking at every event and thinking "how does this relate to the lore" when the event is very clearly a callback to an earlier popular event and nothing more. It's to trigger nostalgia and to be fun, I'd see it as a filler episode.

Why are you so angry? If you dont like lore and think its a joke and all that then why do you spend time on the lore forum?

Could it be that you are just a troll perhaps?

[Segus1992]

Why are you so angry? If you dont like lore and think its a joke and all that then why do you spend time on the lore forum?

Could it be that you are just a troll perhaps?

So now I'm angry for having a sensible stance. Do you honestly think Blizzard is repeating the Wrath invasion event for lore purposes? Why is it that rather than have a logical standpoint you accuse me of being a troll?

[Raisei]

There is a big difference between the Scourge of old and this one: Arthas.

He led the near mindless creatures through towns and villages and increased the size of his army every time one of the humans died. When he arrived in Quel'thalas he was not only one of the most powerful Death Knights ever, but he also had a sizable army and the Cult of the Damned.

On top of that, the plague is a plague, a transmitable virus that can easily infect cities. If we have learned anything in the last few month then that one should never underestimate a virus. The Zombies are only some weak carriers, but they can easily infect people. A bite, a drop of blood, drool, if you get any of that in your eyes, mouth or open wounds, you are pretty much finished and the sheer amount of zombies makes that veeeery easy, especially in a world where people still rely heavily on swords and other melee weapons.

And this was only the base zombies I talked about, if you add Liches with extremly potent magic and building-sized Abominations or Frost Giants that can just rip you in halve ... yeah the Scourge is anything but weak.

However, they do not have a controling hand behind them now, as the Lich King (or the Helmet) is no more, this will make it easier to defend against them, as they are no longer focussed and will just rampage freely, but it also makes them unpredictable.

[ClassicPeon]

So now I'm angry for having a sensible stance. Do you honestly think Blizzard is repeating the Wrath invasion event for lore purposes? Why is it that rather than have a logical standpoint you accuse me of being a troll?

No i didnt say that.

You seem angry because you are making up facts and calling people delusional for not sharing your biased opinion

[Segus1992]

No i didnt say that.

You seem angry because you are making up facts and calling people delusional for not sharing your biased opinion

I implied it because I got the suggestion to leave just because I didn't want to deal with trying to make sense out of every action Blizzard makes. Some actions are very clearly lore-agnostic. Ignoring that would be delusional.

I'm still interested in the lore. I don't think there's any lore at all in this event beyond "oh shit the helmet is broken, Scourge is no longer in control, that should be fun".

[Blodia]

Just because Anduin had only enough men for one assault doesn't mean anything, since Orgrimmar is one of the most impregnable castles on Azeroth. Historically such castles could be held out for a long time by a skeleton garrison, so of course even a large army wouldn't be able to afford multiple sieges. Anduin's army is still large, as evidenced by the fact that the Alliance was tightening its grip on the land and managed to win both the Arathi and Darkshore warfronts.

Historically a siege using early rennaissance or better artillery (which is what you have in wow) ends with a medieval castle getting it's gates blown to bits. There is a reason why once cannons and firearms became more common everyone shifted to star forts.

[Varodoc]

Historically a siege using early rennaissance or better artillery (which is what you have in wow) ends with a medieval castle getting it's gates blown to bits. There is a reason why once cannons and firearms became more common everyone shifted to star forts.

But not what was in the battle. They had catapults, siege towers, but not cannons or other advanced artillery. It is also mentioned by Baine in MoP that Orgrimmar is one of the sturdiest fortress in the entire planet. So yes, it makes perfect sense that Anduin's army, despite being very large, would take so many casualties trying to breach Orgrimmar that it really would be difficult to organize a second siege. Especially when it's so easy for the Forsaken to defend choke points thanks to their explosive blight.

[Blodia]

But not what was in the battle. They had catapults, siege towers, but not cannons or other advanced artillery. It is also mentioned by Baine in MoP that Orgrimmar is one of the sturdiest fortress in the entire planet.

Don't go there. Just don't. Both Horde and Alliance have artillery firing explosive and incendiary shells (not cannonballs) and capable of indirect fire. But they both use catapults (not even trebuchets) and siege towers despite being perfectly savvy enough with gunpowder and explosives to just tear the walls apart. This goes for just about any siege that happened in this game lately. When you have this kind of firepower you don't need siege towers to scale medieval stone walls, you can just blow them up.

[A Chozo]

Terenas Menethil II says: Without its master's command, the restless Scourge will become an even greater threat to this world.

Kel'thuzad doesn't want to be resurrected, Arch-Lich is his true form, one that he wanted even before meeting the Lich King.

And it is an even greater threat. A costly war, as @darkoms explained. People speak as if Arthas held out the Scourge from killing everyone, which is bullshit. He had his long-term plan to resist the Burning Legion once he had his Undead world to command.

And of course I meant a Lich ressurection through the phylactery, not a return to actual life.