"Does it matter to you casuals if we hardcores get fluid covenants?" Yes, here's why.

[Lolites]

but since that thread in that form exists, exactly for the reason above, this is a big sign that something will not go well with Covenenats.

eh... given that this forum is all "doom and gloom" (hell free buff for increased exp was commented as something bad here) most likely scenario is that if anything goes "wrong" it will be so insignificant it will not matter at all...
btw, there was a poll about using that fallback scenarion Ion mentioned (separating cov abilities from covenants) and it was roughly 85% against the idea (before getting closed by mod ) so its does not seem its 50/50, it seems its quite tilted in one direction, just the other direction is more vocal

[qwerty123456]

Steve Rogers is an American who was famous for fighting for the United States in World War II. One might say..."the A doesn't stand for France." The Maw Walker is the sole being who has ever left the realm of eternal torment and is an outsider Chosen One that collectively saved all 4 major branches of the afterlife (that we know of so far) following his activation of a portal that has been dormant since time immemorial, personally giving the middle finger to Bald-Satan.

In the context of the story, if Steve Rogers wants to suddenly be Captain Cockney, he has to answer to an American branch of government he still serves.

In the context of 9.0's story, if the Maw Walker wants an owl steward, THEY'RE GONNA GET HIM ONE, because fuck you.

The Maw Walker then goes on to become Exalted with all 4 branches (but no Renown! ), saves their people from eternal damnation in a tower of horrifying agony, and routinely goes into instances themed after all 4. All while paling around with all of them in the garden/party/tournament/whatever.

It's. A. Little. Different.

It's not a little different. Even if he was an Alien people wouldn't want to invest fully into him if he is going to spend most of the time elsewhere. Both saved their respective worlds and citizens but once that was all well and done they chose to go elsewhere and invest their heroics in a different place. I could have used superman or a countless other heroes who are aliens who mostly hangs out in america or elsewhere but I chose captain america because both saved the world from a great evil and had multiple countries/covenants involved.

[Cyranis]

here is my problem with casuals trying to tell the people who like optimizing their character that they cant do it....it doesnt effect you one way or another

Blizzard makes the rules. You don't need to argue with anyone about anything. It doesn't matter if x does mythic raids and is the best in the world, and y is joe nokeybinds. Blizzard is going to make the best game they can, for the most people they can.

You can make 50000000000 posts about the crap you don't like.
You can make sure that nobody posts dissenting opinions.
You can gatekeep the conversation like a boss, like your trying to do here.

And you will still accomplish nothing, if blizzard does not think what you are suggesting is the best for the game.

Post your feedback. Attack arguments. Leave people out of it. Their opinions are just as valid as yours, because they are paying customers, just like you.
Bliz is going to do what they think is best no matter what. So have some humanity.

[A Chozo]

Blizzard makes the rules. You don't need to argue with anyone about anything. It doesn't matter if x does mythic raids and is the best in the world, and y is joe nokeybinds. Blizzard is going to make the best game they can, for the most people they can.

You can make 50000000000 posts about the crap you don't like.
You can make sure that nobody posts dissenting opinions.
You can gatekeep the conversation like a boss, like your trying to do here.

And you will still accomplish nothing, if blizzard does not think what you are suggesting is the best for the game.

Post your feedback. Attack arguments. Leave people out of it. Their opinions are just as valid as yours, because they are paying customers, just like you.
Bliz is going to do what they think is best no matter what. So have some humanity.

Yeah, gotta agree and echo this too. People behave like some parts of the community shouldn't be listened to for whatever weird reason, meanwhile everyone pays the same sub.

Blizzard is designing for everyone.

[Vakir]

It's not a little different. Even if he was an Alien people wouldn't want to invest fully into him if he is going to spend most of the time elsewhere. Both saved their respective worlds and citizens but once that was all well and done they chose to go elsewhere and invest their heroics in a different place. I could have used superman or a countless other heroes who are aliens who mostly hangs out in america or elsewhere but I chose captain america because both saved the world from a great evil and had multiple countries/covenants involved.

That's the thing, though - the only reason we commit our time to one particular over another is due to metatextual mechanics that prevent us from addressing all the problems. But even then, we're doing exalted-level work with all of them outside the Campaigns.

I don't mind the idea of Covenant campaigns, the Legion class ones did a great job with replayability outside the board mission drags, so I'm not badmouthing this aspect, but there's no functional reason that there's any trust to one over another outside Blizzard's declaration that we must choose in that way.

As stated, from a lore perspective, we've already obtained these abilities. The rituals have been performed. We've learned these spells, largely because we need trial periods to make our decision. But nothing within the context of the story explains why they disappear beyond gameplay concession, which is why lore is a poor hill to stand on.

So if we established lore is a weak justification, then we establish that Blizzard wants to lean more towards "class" over "spec" in Shadowlands but certain Covenant abilities favor certain specs, and we establish that there shouldn't be huge swaths of discrepancy if they do their job right, what exactly is left as the justification for abilities to not be decoupled from Covenants? Campaigns, Sanctums, Soulbinds, Dungeon Buffs (a la Court of Stars), Transportation, Interactable NPCs, Cosmetics, etc. still remaining exclusive. And hell, make the Covenant totally unswappable to compensate.

[Vampyrr]

I think the dungeon covenant buffs are a genius move that kind of shuts down many of the arguments raised by the top players, especially how covenants will supposedly negatively impact the casual playerbase.

In making all covenants useful for different dungeons, they basically ensure that no covenant is the bad one. 200 iq move by Blizzard right there.

There are still more areas where they could add covenant bonuses to make them even more useful across the board.

Should have just made all the abilities the same for each but with different looks/effects so that you pick the one you want not what sims higher. Alternatively do not tie player power at all into covenants

[Rayzen17]

I haven't done the entirety of the storyline yet but I assume we don't completely fix everything until after the jailer is defeated. But the way I see it is like if Captain America saved Europe during WWII and he moves back home to America to fight crime why on earth would Britain let him take a trillion dollar mech they designed for him to use saving people in America? Clearly they would ask for it back and maybe say something like "Well if you ever want to come save people here we got this awesome mech still here for you..."


Instant swapping is easily swapped. Which you can't do unless under specific conditions. Clearly Blizzard designed it that way for a reason.

I'm a bad player cause I can't cookie cutter? Lol how does that make any sense? And yes I'm correct in my assumption about you. I bet you were one of the people that thought picking op talents and shit would make you good at the game but anytime something like the safety dance shows up and you are one of the first dead. I'd rather take the worst dps spec played by a guy with narcolepsy who atleast has some skill than I would want to take a player like you who can only reach content because they have to cookie cutter what ever is op and still not top the meters.

I don't even play cookie cutter builds, or even meta specs. So your personal attack is so off the mark, it's quite funny.
And i did the Safety dance in Wotlk on my old account, it was one of my favorite achievs to do. And it was easy af, you just had to move timed.

So yes, you are the bad player. Fighting to actually restrict other player's choices?
I don't know how you guys don't notice how toxic you are.

Trying to dictate how others play, send me the sub money every month then and we can talk, until then you can take these restrictions and apply them to yourself.

[klogaroth]

It's not a little different. Even if he was an Alien people wouldn't want to invest fully into him if he is going to spend most of the time elsewhere. Both saved their respective worlds and citizens but once that was all well and done they chose to go elsewhere and invest their heroics in a different place. I could have used superman or a countless other heroes who are aliens who mostly hangs out in america or elsewhere but I chose captain america because both saved the world from a great evil and had multiple countries/covenants involved.

It is different.

I can stand in Bastion with fleshcraft on and be given an owl steward.

[qwerty123456]

That's the thing, though - the only reason we commit our time to one particular over another is due to metatextual mechanics that prevent us from addressing all the problems. But even then, we're doing exalted-level work with all of them outside the Campaigns.

I don't mind the idea of Covenant campaigns, the Legion class ones did a great job with replayability outside the board mission drags, so I'm not badmouthing this aspect, but there's no functional reason that there's any trust to one over another outside Blizzard's declaration that we must choose in that way.

As stated, from a lore perspective, we've already obtained these abilities. The rituals have been performed. We've learned these spells, largely because we need trial periods to make our decision. But nothing within the context of the story explains why they disappear beyond gameplay concession, which is why lore is a poor hill to stand on.

So if we established lore is a weak justification, then we establish that Blizzard wants to lean more towards "class" over "spec" in Shadowlands but certain Covenant abilities favor certain specs, and we establish that there shouldn't be huge swaths of discrepancy if they do their job right, what exactly is left as the justification for abilities to not be decoupled from Covenants? Campaigns, Sanctums, Soulbinds, Dungeon Buffs (a la Court of Stars), Transportation, Interactable NPCs, Cosmetics, etc. still remaining exclusive. And hell, make the Covenant totally unswappable to compensate.

You don't keep the previous covenants abilities when you "try out" the next one do you? I haven't played past bastion so I wouldn't know. If you keep all the abilites I could understand the lore seeming messed up but if one ritual replaces another then I don't really see a problem. Just because they don't make you do it every time would just be a gameplay convience.

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I don't even play cookie cutter buils, or even meta specs. So your personal attack is so off the mark, it's quite funny.
And i did the Safety dance in Wotlk on my old account, it was one of my favorite achievs to do. And it was easy af, you just had to move timed.

So yes, you are the bad player, fighting to actually restrict other player's choices?
I don't know how you guys don't notice how toxic you are.

Trying to dictate how others play, send me the sub money every month then and we can talk, until then you can take these restrictions and apply them to yourself.

AH yes the old "its on my other account" excuse. I too also have an old account where I oneshot Rag and Ony at the same time while I was level 25. I just don't have access to it anymore so I can't prove it.

Wanting restrictions doesn't make you a bad player or toxic. Classes restrict the player, levels restrict the player, gear restricts the player, skill restricts the player, specs restrict the player, race and faction restricts the player the game was designed around there being restrictions. Is someone wanting to keep one or all of the above toxic or a bad player? No. Use some common sense.

Blizzard doesn't need to hand hold you. If you wanna be good at pet battles you gotta put the time and effort to do them, If you wanna do arena you gotta put the time in, If you wanna be in a mythic raiding guild you gotta put your time in. If you wanna switch covenants you gotta put your time in.

[NihilSustinet]

Versions of the covenant debate always seem to come down to this point: "Since you're so casual, what does it matter if we who play for keeps push for the ability to swap covenants? Stay out of the discussion if you don't do X high end content!"

Staying out of the discussion is entirely the point of why players like me care. An approachable on-ramp to later game ambition is at the core of why covenants are being presented as intentionally diverse and simultaneously rigid. The entire intent to let new blood try M+ or raiding difficulties beyond LFR (which, once again are more optional than ever and we literally and intentionally have nothing to threaten each other with in regards to content access so long as the main thoroughfare of queuable difficulties include every raid and dungeon), giving people the option, whether it be with the intended established community or the odd available (but less intended) PUG is at the core of why covenants are being presented this way.

"Don't be new on other people's time" is a motto that has grown into WoW as time efficiency rears its ugly head as a key metric in using pick up groups to run PVE team content such as M+ and raids above LFR. The more gears and wheels that will freely rotate into a position that could be optimal or less optimal, the harder "being new" is, and in a situation where WoW does its best to protect us from the worst of each other in as much content as possible (which arguably won't and can't include premade team content, but they're allowed to try), the less approachable that later game content is. This is an important factor.

"But people can just look it up the right configuration," you might say. News flash: that's an answer ignorant to the fact that not everyone will do that, will want to do that, or will think that should be necessary in a game of this caliber. "Well then they aren't entitled to membership in my group and I am free to decline them," you might say... and you wouldn't be wrong, but rigid covenants are exactly the kind of front that WoW can potentially address, on their game's level, the whole "why am I being declined" issue.

I've said before that they will never fully address such a community issue as FOTM and meta, but this might be one of the ways they can actually do that: by cutting down on easily changeable variables and, in a world where the great vault is ticking and you have X number of M+ runs that your OCD is wrongly forcing you to do (another thing that isn't Blizzard's responsibility to work around), making it harder to actually form the perfect group might, in theory, have you take that less meta-class newer player of the "right" covenant into your group just to get it done and over with.

At the end of the day, no, these headaches won't be mine, so long as I can see all the content and achieve my cosmetic goals in queueable or soloable content, I will continue to do what I've done for two expansions now: pretend M+ doesn't exist. The thing is... there is a part of me that might want to give M+ a try some day, and if that moment comes, I will appreciate if the approachability of "no one sane will be asking you to switch covenants" is built into the social compact of the game for reasonable, worthwhile players.

So yes, if you get what you want up there at the high end, the damage trickles down. It matters. There is another viable perspective, people are allowed (intended) to pick their covenant for concept and flavor, and it's blizzard's job to make each covenant "not wrong" for 99.9% of the players doing the vast majority of the content, and we have no reason yet to believe they haven't done that. Keep giving your feedback, and I will keep validating that people seeing covenants as an opportunity for character expression are not wrong.

Thank you for reading!

are you actually defending this hot garbage system? wow.

[razorpax]

Blizzard makes the rules. You don't need to argue with anyone about anything. It doesn't matter if x does mythic raids and is the best in the world, and y is joe nokeybinds. Blizzard is going to make the best game they can, for the most people they can.

You can make 50000000000 posts about the crap you don't like.
You can make sure that nobody posts dissenting opinions.
You can gatekeep the conversation like a boss, like your trying to do here.

And you will still accomplish nothing, if blizzard does not think what you are suggesting is the best for the game.

Post your feedback. Attack arguments. Leave people out of it. Their opinions are just as valid as yours, because they are paying customers, just like you.
Bliz is going to do what they think is best no matter what. So have some humanity.

Humanity??

Dude it’s a video game

I don’t want players to not take part in content but based on the history of systems like this it is better to listen to players who are effected by this.

Blizzard makes mistakes and end up burning time months later fixing the system toting the line of “we heard your feedback and agree”

I want everyone to be able to play in a way they enjoy but the ppl against it try saying “no you can’t do what you’ve done for 15 years cus blizzard says that’s the wrong way to play” and these are the same ppl who during WoD used the line “it doesn’t effect you how I play so stop trying to take away my fun” for lfr and flying. They turned into hypocrites because they think changes that hurt the higher players are a good thing.

If you don’t care about being optimal or competitive then making covenant abilities swappable doesn’t hurt you in any way and only helps you if you decide one day to switch. So why tell those who do like being optimal that they are wrong and should be quiet.

If you don’t PvP beyond random bgs then don’t try to champion changes to arena

If you don’t raid beyond lfr don’t champion the removal of master loot

If you don’t push keys in the 17-25 level don’t champion gear locking

If you don’t care about optimization/competition don’t champion adding barriers to it

You can have your opinion but do people in the nfl listen to the guy in the stands?

There’s no argument or point against allowing abilities to be swappable other than “blizz said so”

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Yeah, gotta agree and echo this too. People behave like some parts of the community shouldn't be listened to for whatever weird reason, meanwhile everyone pays the same sub.

Blizzard is designing for everyone.

I don’t pvp so why should my opinion bare any weight compared to a multi glad player who also does rated bgs

[Rozz]

I've just come to accept that no matter what they do, it'll be a compromise between high end vs normal player wants and needs.

What I don't accept are players demanding their opinions on a universal system matter more than others. This is a system that will impact every single person, regardless of how many hours they put in. How that feels at each point of the spectrum is what Blizzard needs to hear to improve things, not "fuck those other players, my dissatisfaction takes priority".

[Eapoe]

It's not a little different. Even if he was an Alien people wouldn't want to invest fully into him if he is going to spend most of the time elsewhere. Both saved their respective worlds and citizens but once that was all well and done they chose to go elsewhere and invest their heroics in a different place. I could have used superman or a countless other heroes who are aliens who mostly hangs out in america or elsewhere but I chose captain america because both saved the world from a great evil and had multiple countries/covenants involved.

Just because this is becoming laughable I have to join in. Going to your original post about him saving Britain and then returning to America, there’s something you have to remember.
They aren’t going to stop being friendly and allies to him. Hell, if he asked to borrow their machine you brought up they would probably say yes. It’s not “oh, you saved us Captain America, but now that you are back in America we don’t like you anymore and we now want you to jump thru hoops to get our help again. Oh, all those times you saved our asses and we laughed and cried together? No, doesn’t matter, here’s the hoops we need you to go thru.”
Instead, they would keep communications open, probably offer assistance if he asked, and possibly even send operatives to help him if he asked.
Now, if someone new comes into power and decides they don’t like him then you might have a point, but that’s not happening here.

[Rayzen17]

You don't keep the previous covenants abilities when you "try out" the next one do you? I haven't played past bastion so I wouldn't know. If you keep all the abilites I could understand the lore seeming messed up but if one ritual replaces another then I don't really see a problem. Just because they don't make you do it every time would just be a gameplay convience.

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AH yes the old "its on my other account" excuse. I too also have an old account where I oneshot Rag and Ony at the same time while I was level 25. I just don't have access to it anymore so I can't prove it.

Wanting restrictions doesn't make you a bad player or toxic. Classes restrict the player, levels restrict the player, gear restricts the player, skill restricts the player, specs restrict the player, race and faction restricts the player the game was designed around there being restrictions. Is someone wanting to keep one or all of the above toxic or a bad player? No. Use some common sense.

Blizzard doesn't need to hand hold you. If you wanna be good at pet battles you gotta put the time and effort to do them, If you wanna do arena you gotta put the time in, If you wanna be in a mythic raiding guild you gotta put your time in. If you wanna switch covenants you gotta put your time in.

I was actually curious if i could find my char anymore, i was sharing an account with a friend across TBC/Wotlk in highschool and gave it to him beyond that 10-12 years ago or whatever.
You can see the achiev here: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...lich-king-raid
To note that i was in a random guild.. don't even remember the name, but as you know, everyone in the raid needs to do their part to get it.

Also, regarding the restrictions, barring class which you pick at the character creation screen, everything is farmable and switchable. They don't have a 2 week farm period every time you have to switch them. So you need some common sense to see the difference.

And all i see is that you're asking Blizzard to handhold you to get into groups, placing stops to other players to "lower" them to your level.
Don't worry though, this covenant locking business won't even matter, because you won;t get invited anyway due to your low experience. First people look at rio then what's your setup is.
Covenants are going to be an afterthought, 1 specific will be necessary for the mythic activation buffs, so don't expect to get carried just because you were lucky with your choice for the buff activation, rofl.

[Short]

if ONLY the "hardcore" players get fluid covenants, yes. that does matter.
if EVERYONE gets fluid covenants, not really.

though, that would throw another wrench in the design/development gears which is gonna cost more time to balance properly.
so i'd rather they stop fiddling around with it to much on the whims of a small sub set of players that currently has access to the beta.
or the cries of an even smaller subset that feels the need to, as Raph Koster put it, optimize the fun out of a game.

rather it comes as it is now with the inevitable plan b consisting of uncoupling the covenant abilities from the covenants themselves and allowing switching, though still time gated in some way because, lest we forget, no fun allowed.

[Vakir]

You don't keep the previous covenants abilities when you "try out" the next one do you? I haven't played past bastion so I wouldn't know. If you keep all the abilites I could understand the lore seeming messed up but if one ritual replaces another then I don't really see a problem. Just because they don't make you do it every time would just be a gameplay convience.

You don't keep them, but there's also no real justification. New zone, new situation. It is entirely at the whimsy of gameplay, as it should be, but lore is not a valid reasoning. By the time you've left the zone, you've already done more for that group than many in relative millenia.

Kinda pointless to talk with you though if you're going to default to insulting people and making insinuations about a lack of player skill because people don't want this horseshit system - even though the same people heavily getting on it are on the bleeding edge, too. You've already made your decision, whether it's to be contrarian, to be a corporate toadie, or simply because you want to spite people.

[Otimus]

I really wish there was more RPG in WoW, and it hadn't been robbed almost entirely of it because of min-maxing and a catering of content to the top 10% of the playerbase. But that ship sailed a long time ago. Everyone else gets a theme park ride, they get a lobby for a quasi-action RPG. Yay :/

[Vakir]

I really wish there was more RPG in WoW, and it hadn't been robbed almost entirely of it because of min-maxing and a catering of content to the top 10% of the playerbase. But that ship sailed a long time ago. Everyone else gets a theme park ride, they get a lobby for a quasi-action RPG. Yay :/

Blame the nature of a long-running MMO.

People don't min-max to the same degree in single player RPGs with clear "answers" because it encourages multiple playthroughs and there's no social component.

But games that don't design from the onset as WoW does - games like FF14 or GW2 and the like - still have "meta" builds popularized (or optimal stats/rotations) and are more prone to min-maxing by virtue of the nature of being a long-term character investment.

I don't understand why this philosophy has to be a dirty one. They could get so much more done if they stopped worrying about taking the path of most resistance against the player culture and did a better job of making more varied and interesting talents and abilities that are changeable without being trivial, so there's more ambiguity, rather than doing stupid, scorched earth attempts at "forcing" roleplaying conventions. So much time wasted on goofy, gimmicky bullshit in these borrowed power systems and the like.

[Rayzen17]

I really wish there was more RPG in WoW, and it hadn't been robbed almost entirely of it because of min-maxing and a catering of content to the top 10% of the playerbase. But that ship sailed a long time ago. Everyone else gets a theme park ride, they get a lobby for a quasi-action RPG. Yay :/

You can have your ideal RPG right now. Go ahead, try it, you can RP as a cat in-game! And nobody will stop you.
You can also RP with the covenants being unlocked to being locked, you get to.. wait for it.. wait for it... you get to NOT change your covenant!
See how easy it is? GL role playing as a Venthyr lackey or something. Because even if you chose Venthyr, you're not a vampire m8, you're just someone who associates with them beyond saying hello and bye, you're helping them but you don't get to be a Vampire Mage or something like that.

But you can indeed say you are and role play away! Even without you actually being one. If role playing is your jam, go ahead and do it?
You just can't force other people to role play with you... you don't pay our subscriptions.

[Otimus]

Blame the nature of a long-running MMO.

People don't min-max to the same degree in single player RPGs with clear "answers" because it encourages multiple playthroughs and there's no social component.

But games that don't design from the onset as WoW does - games like FF14 or GW2 and the like - still have "meta" builds popularized and are more prone to min-maxing by virtue of the nature of being a long-term character investment.

I don't understand why this philosophy has to be a dirty one. They could get so much more done if they stopped worrying about taking the path of most resistance against the player culture and did a better job of making more varied and interesting talents and abilities that are changeable without being trivial, so there's more ambiguity, rather than doing stupid, scorched earth attempts at "forcing" roleplaying conventions. So much time wasted on goofy, gimmicky bullshit in these borrowed power systems and the like.

I just really don't like how much of the RPG aspect has been gutted out of WoW to appease these people. Like, for example, skill trees. Aside from stats, and I suppose character creation, there's barely any RPG left in the game :/

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You can have your ideal RPG right now. Go ahead, try it, you can RP as a cat in-game! And nobody will stop you.
You can also RP with the covenants being unlocked to being locked, you get to.. wait for it.. wait for it... you get to NOT change your covenant!
See how easy it is? GL role playing as a Venthyr lackey or something. Because even if you chose Venthyr, you're not a vampire m8, you're just someone who associates with them beyond saying hello and bye, you're helping them but you don't get to be a Vampire Mage or something like that.

But you can indeed say you are and role play away! Even without you actually being one. If role playing is your jam, go ahead and do it?
You just can't force other people to role play with you... you don't pay our subscriptions.

That wasn't what I meant. I mostly mean things involving skill trees, stats, etc. Character growth, tweaking and the like. Gameplay decisions and stuff.