"Does it matter to you casuals if we hardcores get fluid covenants?" Yes, here's why.

[Ealyssa]

little jimmy isnt gonna swap no matter what

1)Little jimmy swap talents, little jimmy swap corruption, little jimmy swap specs. For BG, for arena, for dungeons, for raids, for open worlds. Please provide any data outside your garbage superiority complexe that little jimmy won't swap covenants ?

so why not allow those who want to swap to do it without a bunch of bs??

Because of, drums rolling, game design choice.

Mind blowing right ? You aren't managing game development, they are...
And yes "wow is dying", "Blizzard don't know", "Blizzard are idiots", and yet. 16 years later, they are still here, going strong. While 97.5% of MMOs from Vanilla launch til 2020 are dead.

Do they always create good mechanics ? Obviously not. I stopped wow for the first time since 2004 because I just hate the corruption system. So what ? Should they just scrap it because I don't like it ? Should they make it irrelevant just because I don't like it ? No, they stick to their design choice. And that's fine. You can't please everyone.

I will try SL. And I'm allready commited on my covenants purely based on their lore and asthetic by class. I know my choice won't prevent me to perform well at MM+, It won't stop me to clear every mythic raid with my guild like I always did. It won't prevent me to do arenas.

And if by any chance my choices are such a burden that it really prevents me to clear every content I'm used to clear. I will stop playing wow again, really not that complicated.
I certainly won't be crying outloud on forum about how desperate I am that a video game doesn't cave to every single desires I have...

TL;DR The risk of the system failing obviously exist, doesn't mean I'm no excited about having an actual choice to make that will define the character for the ~2years of the expansion.

[klogaroth]

I just really don't like how much of the RPG aspect has been gutted out of WoW to appease these people. Like, for example, skill trees. Aside from stats, and I suppose character creation, there's barely any RPG left in the game :/
- - - Updated - - -
That wasn't what I meant. I mostly mean things involving skill trees, stats, etc. Character growth, tweaking and the like. Gameplay decisions and stuff.

You mean the skill trees that you can swap as many times as you can cough up 50g? Those ones?

Is that your example?

Skill trees with a couple of actives and a few passives, that you can complete swap for 50g?

And you're comparing that to the covenants. That contain a couple of actives and a few passives. And have a re-grind attached to swapping the actives and a hard weekly lock on some of the passives?

Covenants are way more restrictive than skill trees ever were. Exactly what RPG are you looking to ressurect here?

Because it isn't WoW. Go and play Classic, it's out right now. It doesn't have anything like this.

If it was WoW you were looking to "bring back", covenant abilities would be swappable for a rising cost with a fixed cap that eventually decays if you stop changing for a while.

[Otimus]

You mean the skill trees that you can swap as many times as you can cough up 50g? Those ones?

Is that your example?

Skill trees with a couple of actives and a few passives, that you can complete swap for 50g?

And you're comparing that to the covenants. That contain a couple of actives and a few passives. And have a re-grind attached to swapping the actives and a hard weekly lock on some of the passives?

Covenants are way more restrictive than skill trees ever were. Exactly what RPG are you looking to ressurect here?

Because it isn't WoW.

I wasn't comparing them, I was just pining about how there's not enough RPG-ness in WoW. You're reading too much into it!

I definitely think with WoW how it is now, covenants should be easily swapable, because the community is what it is, and people's gameplay experiences are going to be ruined if they can't. (Because people definitely will require people have the "right" one, and there will be a "right" one, because Blizzard doesn't know how to balance things.)

[Vakir]

I just really don't like how much of the RPG aspect has been gutted out of WoW to appease these people. Like, for example, skill trees. Aside from stats, and I suppose character creation, there's barely any RPG left in the game :/

Don't get daunted by the long post - not attacking, I'm actually kinda with you on this.

...Frankly? There never were the RPG elements. We were just bad. Pre-Mists talent system still had a lot of extraneous numerical talents that you were daft to not take. Specializations still dictated a lot of your decisions on what to cast, with others falling to the wayside, but they're actually doing a decent job of re-establishing a core for each class (Auras/Blessings, Alter Time/Mirror Image as a defensive, expansion of hybridization for Druids, Curses, etc.).

I think the way you fix the RPG aspect of this from a gameplay POV is to make better talent tuning passes so the options aren't as binary as "the AOE choice, the cleave choice, or the single target one!" and actually create some ambiguity about the best decision. Outside talents, I was actually excited for Conduits until I saw them, because I saw them as another opportunity to make some interesting tweaks (like the old glyph system). Instead they're almost all numerical adjustments across the board. Pretty boring. Same with a lot of the legendaries.

From the story POV, I'd say the best thing to do, especially in an MMO, is to heavily deincentivize player power in these kinds of story decisions to make choices feel more authentic without having the carrot too heavily dictate them. TOR had this problem prior to reworking rewards. People went with the companion that best complemented their character class, even if they didn't like them. Wanna hang with Blizz? Fuck you. You're taking Mako, all the time, because she's a healer. Only when there weren't huge choice chasms in terms of companion class and Light vs. Dark Side choices did people play authentic to their characters.

Even just the set-dressing doesn't lend itself to an RPG. Imagine a scenario, New Vegas style, where Covenants were heavily expanded in terms of the direction of the story and were full of political intrigue in terms of grasping the power of the afterlife in this vast, complicated sphere of death? lol nah we're all friends and we're fighting bald-satan zzzzzzzzzz

The biggest disappointment is the 8 abilities you can play with for each class are just about the only interesting completely-new gameplay element, with so many cool modifiers on them through Torghast anima powers that are specific to your covenant...and they are heavily throttled unless you roll alts of the same class. Fuck that. It feels like such a big fly in the ointment of such a cool idea.

[Rayzen17]

I just really don't like how much of the RPG aspect has been gutted out of WoW to appease these people. Like, for example, skill trees. Aside from stats, and I suppose character creation, there's barely any RPG left in the game :/

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That wasn't what I meant. I mostly mean things involving skill trees, stats, etc. Character growth, tweaking and the like. Gameplay decisions and stuff.

Well everything can be changed in the game except for what you selected at the character creation screen. This has been the setup up to now.

Gameplay decisions are happening right now, we can change our talents and essences for example. I use Vision of Perfection for raiding because it gives me wings from time to time, that's fun. I don't use that while doing dailies because it procs so random, it could proc on the last hit of a mob and completely waste it by the next pack, i use Reaping for dailies, why? Because it's fun to have another ranged attack, and if you manage it properly it can even 1 shot some low hp mobs.

These are decisions that affect gameplay, if essences were locked like covenants were, i could not have this switch and i'd be locked in using Vision of Perfection only. My gameplay would be affected while doing dailies, visions too as another example where i use Reaping Flames. And the way it's affected, is negatively, it's not fun waiting for a proc like that, an active ability is much more fun to use.
Maybe you'll say i could have picked Reaping for everything then? Nope, it's an additional GCD i'd have to use while fighting which would mess my rotation and make it unfun, not even mentioning and dps differences, not getting wings with the time to actually use it in the case for raiding.

As you can see, something as simple as not allowing to switch essences this expac would affect gameplay like this, Covenants are the exact same type of bear, only colored differently.

[Kaver]

In making all covenants useful for different dungeons, they basically ensure that no covenant is the bad one. 200 iq move by Blizzard right there.

What you describe here requires very good balancing and tuning. Blizzard will most likely not be able to achieve that.

[Otimus]

Don't get daunted by the long post - not attacking, I'm actually kinda with you on this.

...Frankly? There never were the RPG elements. We were just bad. Pre-Mists talent system still had a lot of extraneous numerical talents that you were daft to not take. Specializations still dictated a lot of your decisions on what to cast, with others falling to the wayside, but they're actually doing a decent job of re-establishing a core for each class (Auras/Blessings, Alter Time/Mirror Image as a defensive, expansion of hybridization for Druids, Curses, etc.).

I think the way you fix the RPG aspect of this from a gameplay POV is to make better talent tuning passes so the options aren't as binary as "the AOE choice, the cleave choice, or the single target one!" and actually create some ambiguity about the best decision. Outside talents, I was actually excited for Conduits until I saw them, because I saw them as another opportunity to make some interesting tweaks (like the old glyph system). Instead they're almost all numerical adjustments across the board. Pretty boring. Same with a lot of the legendaries.

From the story POV, I'd say the best thing to do, especially in an MMO, is to heavily deincentivize player power in these kinds of story decisions to make choices feel more authentic without having the carrot too heavily dictate them. TOR had this problem prior to reworking rewards. People went with the companion that best complemented their character class, even if they didn't like them. Wanna hang with Blizz? Fuck you. You're taking Mako, all the time, because she's a healer. Only when there weren't huge choice chasms in terms of companion class and Light vs. Dark Side choices did people play authentic to their characters.

Imagine a scenario, New Vegas style, where Covenants were heavily expanded in terms of the direction of the story and were full of political intrigue in terms of grasping the power of the afterlife in this vast, complicated sphere of death? lol nah we're all friends and we're fighting bald-satan zzzzzzzzzz

The biggest disappointment is the 8 abilities you can play with for each class are just about the only interesting completely-new gameplay element, with so many cool modifiers on them through Torghast anima powers that are specific to your covenant...and they are heavily throttled unless you roll alts of the same class. Fuck that. It feels like such a big fly in the ointment of such a cool idea.

I very much like your post!

- - - Updated - - -

Well everything can be changed in the game except for what you selected at the character creation screen. This has been the setup up to now.

Gameplay decisions are happening right now, we can change our talents and essences for example. I use Vision of Perfection for raiding because it gives me wings from time to time, that's fun. I don't use that while doing dailies because it procs so random, it could proc on the last hit of a mob and completely waste it by the next pack, i use Reaping for dailies, why? Because it's fun to have another ranged attack, and if you manage it properly it can even 1 shot some low hp mobs.

These are decisions that affect gameplay, if essences were locked like covenants were, i could not have this switch and i'd be locked in using Vision of Perfection only. My gameplay would be affected while doing dailies, visions too as another example where i use Reaping Flames. And the way it's affected, is negatively, it's not fun waiting for a proc like that, an active ability is much more fun to use.
Maybe you'll say i could have picked Reaping for everything then? Nope, it's an additional GCD i'd have to use while fighting which would mess my rotation and make it unfun, not even mentioning and dps differences, not getting wings with the time to actually use it in the case for raiding.

As you can see, something as simple as not allowing to switch essences this expac would affect gameplay like this, Covenants are the exact same type of bear, only colored differently.

Just so you know, read above, I wasn't arguing for not being able to change covenants. I probably should have been clearer in my initial post.

[Rayzen17]

1)Little jimmy swap talents, little jimmy swap corruption, little jimmy swap specs. For BG, for arena, for dungeons, for raids, for open worlds. Please provide any data outside your garbage superiority complexe that little jimmy won't swap covenants ?

Because of, drums rolling, game design choice.

Mind blowing right ? You aren't managing game development, they are...
And yes "wow is dying", "Blizzard don't know", "Blizzard are idiots", and yet. 16 years later, they are still here, going strong. While 97.5% of MMOs from Vanilla launch til 2020 are dead.

Do they always create good mechanics ? Obviously not. I stopped wow for the first time since 2004 because I just hate the corruption system. So what ? Should they just scrap it because I don't like it ? Should they make it irrelevant just because I don't like it ? No, they stick to their design choice. And that's fine. You can't please everyone.

I will try SL. And I'm allready commited on my covenants purely based on their lore and asthetic by class. I know my choice won't prevent me to perform well at MM+, It won't stop me to clear every mythic raid with my guild like I always did. It won't prevent me to do arenas.

And if by any chance my choices are such a burden that it really prevents me to clear every content I'm used to clear. I will stop playing wow again, really not that complicated.
I certainly won't be crying outloud on forum about how desperate I am that a video game doesn't cave to every single desires I have...

TL;DR The risk of the system failing obviously exist, doesn't mean I'm no excited about having an actual choice to make that will define the character for the ~2years of the expansion.

You're talking out of ignorance with your "16 years later still going strong" when the subs have declined by the millions over time.

Your character won't be defined when picking your covenant once, once every 2 weeks or changing daily, so maybe come up with something else, cause this choice doesn't define you in the least.

You'll just be player 1232895 out in the world choosing covenant B. How long ago did he chose his covenant? Who cares? Nobody will ask himself that. Nobody cares but you, and if only you care, then you can stick with 1 covenant for the whole expac even if we, the rest could change it. If you lay out some rules for yourself, at least have the decency to follow them.

[StrawberryZebra]

meaningful choices.

For a choice to be meaningful it has to be one that the player is invested into. You know as well as I do that Covenants for high end players are going to boil down to either A) Which abilities let you cheese mechanics and B)Whichever one has the most throughput for a given situation. For some players it's already going to be made for them. That's not a choice at all, it's the outcome of a mathematical equation.

What you're really advocating for are consequences, not choices. There's a difference. You want there to be consequences for choosing a certain Covenant. Which is fine in a vacuum. But when you're in a position where you're protected from any of those consequences whilst advocating that others have a worse play experience because want the illusion of choice then you're disengenuous in the extreme to avocate forcing them on other players when you don't have any skin in the game yourself.

It still baffles me how the community turned the eighty hour a week farms only lfr bottom feeder hardcore player into the casual and the raid logger into the hardcore.

I've been wondering this too. Raid logging seems to have become the cardinal sin and even suggesting it is a crime so heinous that you should be hung, drawn and quatered on the spot.

It's really not - Raid loggers are coming back a couple of times a week to play regardless. They don't need to be forced into other content in an attempt to keep them invested.

[Flantini]

It doesn't make sense to lock players into a covenant for game-play reasons. Game-play wise covenants function the same as the azerite system/legion artifacts. The really weird thing is that it doesn't make sense from a lore stand point either.

Before I got beta, with the covenants being locked I thought that lore wise the covenants would hate each other and not exactly be friendly with the other covenants. But thats not the case at all. All of the covenants (while they have their rogue groups inside them) are very friendly with each other and are clearly on the same side. They help each other out a lot during the leveling process. So there is no reason to "choose" a covenant story wise, these feel just like reputations that all get along. You didn't have to "choose" which rep you would go with in 8.3 (rajani or uldum accord) and it doesnt make sense to choose which faction to go with now.

So if its not for game-play and it doesn't really make sense in the story/lore to choose... we are pigeon holed into a covenant for...? It seems like the answer is arbitrary meaningful choice which is just extremely disappointing to me.

[Rayzen17]

It doesn't make sense to lock players into a covenant for game-play reasons. Game-play wise covenants function the same as the azerite system/legion artifacts. The really weird thing is that it doesn't make sense from a lore stand point either.

Before I got beta, with the covenants being locked I thought that lore wise the covenants would hate each other and not exactly be friendly with the other covenants. But thats not the case at all. All of the covenants (while they have their rogue groups inside them) are very friendly with each other and are clearly on the same side. They help each other out a lot during the leveling process. So there is no reason to "choose" a covenant story wise, these feel just like reputations that all get along. You didn't have to "choose" which rep you would go with in 8.3 (rajani or uldum accord) and it doesnt make sense to choose which faction to go with now.

So if its not for game-play and it doesn't really make sense in the story/lore to choose... we are pigeon holed into a covenant for...? It seems like the answer is arbitrary meaningful choice which is just extremely disappointing to me.

Role playing-wise it would have made more sense to have every ability available at the same time, since you were taught by them and have used them already, so it doesn't make sense to "forget" how to use those powers. And if the story goes that you can only use it with the covenant in question's approval, well they wouldn't take it from you, they want to have you resolve their issues, even if you're at the moment helping another covenant out with stuff, it doesn't mean you stop helping them, so it makes no sense to weaken you on purpose.

As such this is where gameplay steps in and allows us only 2/8 powers to be used at the same time, so we can see from here that RP already takes a back seat to gameplay to not make us OP.
Gameplay > RP ... always has been, always will, for balance reasons.

[Vakir]

But when you're in a position where you're protected from any of those consequences whilst advocating that others have a worse play experience because want the illusion of choice then you're disengenuous in the extreme to avocate forcing them on other players when you don't have any skin in the game yourself.

I've been wondering this too.

The reason is simple and the two quotes are interrelated: They're angry with what they want the game to be, or don't have, and the argument for it is simply out of schadenfreude and inconveniencing players they don't like - not truly out of a sense of a positive direction for the game.

At best, a scorched-earth belief that this bad decision will somehow bring back factory jobs uhhh maybe make siming and gatekeeping less common when it'll never go away (and instead Blizzard should provide players with more knowledge and practice to perform better, and maybe focus on some better talent tuning). At worst, outward contempt for people who want to play at their best.

"Fine, since I got shit for applying as Frost instead of Fire, I will support breaking both of our toys. You're the only one who cares about it anyway."

[qwerty123456]

Just because this is becoming laughable I have to join in. Going to your original post about him saving Britain and then returning to America, there’s something you have to remember.
They aren’t going to stop being friendly and allies to him. Hell, if he asked to borrow their machine you brought up they would probably say yes. It’s not “oh, you saved us Captain America, but now that you are back in America we don’t like you anymore and we now want you to jump thru hoops to get our help again. Oh, all those times you saved our asses and we laughed and cried together? No, doesn’t matter, here’s the hoops we need you to go thru.”
Instead, they would keep communications open, probably offer assistance if he asked, and possibly even send operatives to help him if he asked.
Now, if someone new comes into power and decides they don’t like him then you might have a point, but that’s not happening here.

And the covenants are still friendly to you they don't just instantly attack you once you switch sides. If he was fighting another world ending threat they may let him borrow it because they to would be under threat but they aren't just going to let him stomp robbers in New York with it. For the most part you dealt with a majority of the problems with the covenant are dealt with(still gotta deal with the jailer and maw). Yes they would keep communications open just like I said. If you wanna use the mech (covenant powers) you gotta start rep-ing us again.

You don't keep them, but there's also no real justification. New zone, new situation. It is entirely at the whimsy of gameplay, as it should be, but lore is not a valid reasoning. By the time you've left the zone, you've already done more for that group than many in relative millenia.

Kinda pointless to talk with you though if you're going to default to insulting people and making insinuations about a lack of player skill because people don't want this horseshit system - even though the same people heavily getting on it are on the bleeding edge, too. You've already made your decision, whether it's to be contrarian, to be a corporate toadie, or simply because you want to spite people.

There's no real justification as to why a ritual might rewrite another one? What's the justification for not just being able put every enchant on a piece of gear and being unstoppable? My Horde character has done more for the Alliance (and vice versa) than the majority of Alliance soldiers and civilians and yet because I pledged myself to one or the other the other faction unsurprisingly doesn't just go out and let me use their zeppelins or tanks.

I didn't start the insulting of people others did, I just stated my opinion on why they feel like they need instant swaps. The fact that there are tons of people who don't instant swap or cookie cutter and are still able to succeed is proof that its about not having the skill to keep up and needing a helping hand while there is no proof whatsoever that a single skill is going to keep every player without it out of arena or raiding or mythic dungeons.

Never once did I insult you in our conversations. Its strange that you have started insulting me though did I strike a nerve or something?

I was actually curious if i could find my char anymore, i was sharing an account with a friend across TBC/Wotlk in highschool and gave it to him beyond that 10-12 years ago or whatever.
You can see the achiev here: https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...lich-king-raid
To note that i was in a random guild.. don't even remember the name, but as you know, everyone in the raid needs to do their part to get it.

Also, regarding the restrictions, barring class which you pick at the character creation screen, everything is farmable and switchable. They don't have a 2 week farm period every time you have to switch them. So you need some common sense to see the difference.

And all i see is that you're asking Blizzard to handhold you to get into groups, placing stops to other players to "lower" them to your level.
Don't worry though, this covenant locking business won't even matter, because you won;t get invited anyway due to your low experience. First people look at rio then what's your setup is.
Covenants are going to be an afterthought, 1 specific will be necessary for the mythic activation buffs, so don't expect to get carried just because you were lucky with your choice for the buff activation, rofl.

I honestly don't give a shit about if you are faking having an achievement or not I was just giving you shit for insulting me.

And you can switch and farm covenants. Not once did I ever say it needed to be a permanent choice. Just like everything else in wow you have to put the work in for it. You shouldn't be given free healer gear if your main spec is dps, you gotta work and gather those pieces yourself.

I'm not asking to get into groups for free or to be hand held. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Blizzard giving someone a million gold because they can't farm it is them handholding a person. Someone saying Blizzard shouldn't be giving out millions of gold because it will wreck the economy and devalues the work of people with actual skill who obtained it themselves is not handholding.

[Rayzen17]

And the covenants are still friendly to you they don't just instantly attack you once you switch sides. If he was fighting another world ending threat they may let him borrow it because they to would be under threat but they aren't just going to let him stomp robbers in New York with it. For the most part you dealt with a majority of the problems with the covenant are dealt with(still gotta deal with the jailer and maw). Yes they would keep communications open just like I said. If you wanna use the mech (covenant powers) you gotta start rep-ing us again.





There's no real justification as to why a ritual might rewrite another one? What's the justification for not just being able put every enchant on a piece of gear and being unstoppable? My Horde character has done more for the Alliance (and vice versa) than the majority of Alliance soldiers and civilians and yet because I pledged myself to one or the other the other faction unsurprisingly doesn't just go out and let me use their zeppelins or tanks.

I didn't start the insulting of people others did, I just stated my opinion on why they feel like they need instant swaps. The fact that there are tons of people who don't instant swap or cookie cutter and are still able to succeed is proof that its about not having the skill to keep up and needing a helping hand while there is no proof whatsoever that a single skill is going to keep every player out of arena or raiding or mythic dungeons.

Never once did I insult you in our conversations. Its strange that you have started insulting me though did I strike a nerve or something?




I honestly don't give a shit about if you are faking having an achievement or not I was just giving you shit for insulting me.

And you can switch and farm covenants. Not once did I ever say it needed to be a permanent choice. Just like everything else in wow you have to put the work in for it. You shouldn't be given free healer gear if your main spec is dps, you gotta work and gather those pieces yourself.

I'm not asking to get into groups for free or to be hand held. Clearly you don't understand what that means. Blizzard giving someone a million gold because they can't farm it is them handholding a person. Someone saying Blizzard shouldn't be giving out millions of gold because it will wreck the economy and devalues the work of people with actual skill who obtained it themselves is not handholding.

What are you even on about with switching and farming covenants? You know fully well that the issue is with it taking 1-2 weeks to accomplish the switch back.
Once you farm the essences or the gear, you can switch ad-nauseum, so don't talk about stuff like this when it's not even close.
You're either talking about the real issue, or you're just talking bullshit. I think we now know what you're full of.
This is such a stupid hill for you to die on, get a grip man.

Me coming from Night Fae doing dailies, to Venthyr raiding at 8 to 11 and then going Kyrian for M+ won't affect your gameplay or your role playing game.
So we're coming back to this. You do not pay my subscription to tell me how to play the game, nor somebody else's, once you send me the money, we can talk restrictions for me, until then, move along and role-play how much you want in-game for your character.

[Akibaboy]

You won’t be forced to swap

You want to keep me from being 100% optimal because you don’t want to be told you aren’t

It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

Friction is in a way the most important aspect in video games, as our sense of satisfaction is directly proportional to the amount of it we overcome via our actions and choices. If you can choose anything at any time, then it's a) not a choice and b) devoid of friction. The Covenant system 100% allows you to change your Covenant at your choosing, just not without friction. Asking for it to have zero friction means it stops being a part of the gameplay - it's now just a piece of the UI, a Facebook game where you click the icon and have been told "Congrats! You did the right thing!" You enter the easiest version of the dungeon your UI presses could piece together for you, and are never asked "What would this be like if I had both strengths AND weaknesses."

[Vakir]

There's no real justification as to why a ritual might rewrite another one? What's the justification for not just being able put every enchant on a piece of gear and being unstoppable? My Horde character has done more for the Alliance (and vice versa) than the majority of Alliance soldiers and civilians and yet because I pledged myself to one or the other the other faction unsurprisingly doesn't just go out and let me use their zeppelins or tanks.

...the Horde and Alliance have a constant, tenuous cycle of aggression and hatred. It's literally the main theme of the game. The Covenants are buddies. But again, even if they weren't - lore trumps gameplay. It just also doesn't work in lore, is the point.

I didn't start the insulting of people others did, I just stated my opinion on why they feel like they need instant swaps. The fact that there are tons of people who don't instant swap or cookie cutter and are still able to succeed is proof that its about not having the skill to keep up and needing a helping hand while there is no proof whatsoever that a single skill is going to keep every player out of arena or raiding or mythic dungeons.

Never once did I insult you in our conversations. Its strange that you have started insulting me though did I strike a nerve or something?

My very big problem is that you're making these insinuations about other players on top of spouting things you're actively wrong about. Yes, you can manage a lot of content without going for the absolute most optimal spec and optimal build. But the reality is that people who play something on the lower end that enjoy playing at their best can still do so. They can still try to pick the best possible combination of talents and gear selection to pull as high as they can, and can still feel accomplished with taking a "lower tier" spec to a good place.

Covenants don't just have some abilities better than others - you're applying an ability to 2-4 specs when all of them will have different preferences. A good example is Deathborne is just not the same for Fireball or Frostbolt, filler/activating abilities, as it is for Arcane Blast, a core damage spell during burst periods. The chasm of its use is massive, +10% damage or not. It directly contradicts the entire direction of SL being about restoring class over spec. It is just 1 of 52 spells that work in this way.

Let me put it in fighting game terms. Tier lists do exist - but pros choose to play low tier characters all the time. People win major tournaments with them. Competitive players don't just pick the best character ALL the time, and sometimes it can completely change the dynamic to bring in a dark horse. But people still want to play their best WITH that character. Playing a cookie cutter spec is like playing a high tier character, but Covenant abilities are like forcing you to only use one specific combo on that character and omit 3 others. That's just not going to work the same way against every opponent. Or in this case, every type of content/spec.

Making this about "well clearly the person just wasn't good enough!" is missing the entire point and, more importantly, ignores the single most important piece of the puzzle: The only people that get harmed by this decision are those individuals. OP's position is outright ridiculous. Fixed covenants won't discourage gatekeeping, it will, if anything, do the opposite.

So yeah, that's why I'm pretty god damn pissed at the notion. You're in no position to judge others about this if you don't understand the fundamentals of how and why people min-max. It's not just about tryharding. For some, that is what makes it fun.

It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

Raids have been consistently great, though, stupid horseshit like Corruptions aside. There's been missteps like Tomb of Soakgeras, but the reality is that raids are one of the things WoW consistently gets right.

Meanwhile, the feedback in Castle Nathria is that it looks like they reverse-engineered shit to try and cater to certain Covenants always having something to do, resulting in boring 30 second intermissions in the Stone Generals fight. There's a permanent bleed so that Kyrians can clear it, and you need to eat a long CC to clear it otherwise, which means Necrolords can use their immunity with Fleshcraft to avoid the stun but still get rid of it.

Except it means a boring fucking phase all around. They made a boss with a priority on filling in this weird-ass system rather than just making a boss and having classes with distinct identities that already existed filling in around it. But you can't design these around being required either, because a fight that needs a 20-50% health shield means death for those who don't have it.

So the end result is blandness that feels contrived.

[goldlock]

For a choice to be meaningful it has to be one that the player is invested into. You know as well as I do that Covenants for high end players are going to boil down to either A) Which abilities let you cheese mechanics and B)Whichever one has the most throughput for a given situation. For some players it's already going to be made for them. That's not a choice at all, it's the outcome of a mathematical equation.

What you're really advocating for are consequences, not choices. There's a difference. You want there to be consequences for choosing a certain Covenant. Which is fine in a vacuum. But when you're in a position where you're protected from any of those consequences whilst advocating that others have a worse play experience because want the illusion of choice then you're disengenuous in the extreme to avocate forcing them on other players when you don't have any skin in the game yourself.



I've been wondering this too. Raid logging seems to have become the cardinal sin and even suggesting it is a crime so heinous that you should be hung, drawn and quatered on the spot.

It's really not - Raid loggers are coming back a couple of times a week to play regardless. They don't need to be forced into other content in an attempt to keep them invested.

I honestly think it is a coping mechanism...

I wouldn't say players envy mythic players but there seems to be almost a extreme hatred towards though who can accomplish and complete harder content in a short time period vs those who linger and struggle even with the simplest content.

Rather then be content with what they have they seem to almost get a malicious joy out of ruining the enjoyment of others by cheering on anything that inconveniences them.

It reminds me of crabs in a bucket pulling each other down.

[Rayzen17]

It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

Friction is in a way the most important aspect in video games, as our sense of satisfaction is directly proportional to the amount of it we overcome via our actions and choices. If you can choose anything at any time, then it's a) not a choice and b) devoid of friction. The Covenant system 100% allows you to change your Covenant at your choosing, just not without friction. Asking for it to have zero friction means it stops being a part of the gameplay - it's now just a piece of the UI, a Facebook game where you click the icon and have been told "Congrats! You did the right thing!" You enter the easiest version of the dungeon your UI presses could piece together for you, and are never asked "What would this be like if I had both strengths AND weaknesses."

As opposed to making one choice at level cap and then you now have 100% the same gameplay due to your chosen covenant every time you do raids, m+, dailies, arenas, bg's... old raids for crying out loud?
Or you can chose freely and use whatever covenant you like for whatever covenant you feel you wanna use at the time?
To experiment? To try the meta? To have some fun in the game without being restricted?

This part "it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter" confirms that you have no idea what you're talking about, just because Icy Veins recommends something, it doesn't mean it's 100% true in all the situations they list there.
And some things they list aren't even accurate for your character. If you ever simmed you'd know that the stats that you use, can change priorities for what's your best talents. And the most important thing, to freely experiment with your options and see which is the best fit for your enjoyment. Locking covenants prevents you from experimenting in any meaningful way.

So no, not everything is cut and dry, just because there's a site out there that gives you general advice, it's not the end all be all holy scripture.

Finally, if you lock covenants then what? You stay like that, you play like that for everything the game offers, is this fun?
Let's lock specs next if it's fun being locked, no?

[Lei]

I mean... you defeat your own argument in your post...

It was faster and you mostly spent your time grinding rep in dungeons. Raid loggers didn't move into your territory you dragged them kicking and screaming into yours.

Please tell me when was grinding reps in dungeons a thing. Well I mean of course in BC dungeons gave the rep. Chainqueing to dungeons wasn't really a thing before mop. I remember doing it for whatever points to buy heirlooms. Even if you check a rep guide, any guide from cata, wrath the most efficient rep grind was in outdoors. Remember when before 3.3 you had to fish your daily group from trade chat because there was no group finder? And in Cata, doing the starter reps in dungeons was just a pain in the ass? Etcetc.
Yes, maybe raidloggers were dragged and they screamed - not sure if it was "my territory", as if I am arguing agaisnt anyone - , but it was a thing nontheless. It was at least faster for them.

[goldlock]

It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

Friction is in a way the most important aspect in video games, as our sense of satisfaction is directly proportional to the amount of it we overcome via our actions and choices. If you can choose anything at any time, then it's a) not a choice and b) devoid of friction. The Covenant system 100% allows you to change your Covenant at your choosing, just not without friction. Asking for it to have zero friction means it stops being a part of the gameplay - it's now just a piece of the UI, a Facebook game where you click the icon and have been told "Congrats! You did the right thing!" You enter the easiest version of the dungeon your UI presses could piece together for you, and are never asked "What would this be like if I had both strengths AND weaknesses."

This isn't how wow works though... people just drop the classes that don't perform and then sell those players carries later...

I don't get all this hypothetical game crafting when we see the results of those actions play out in real time...

This sums it up...



- - - Updated - - -

Please tell me when was grinding reps in dungeons a thing. Well I mean of course in BC dungeons gave the rep. Chainqueing to dungeons wasn't really a thing before mop. I remember doing it for whatever points to buy heirlooms. Even if you check a rep guide, any guide from cata, wrath the most efficient rep grind was in outdoors. Remember when before 3.3 you had to fish your daily group from trade chat because there was no group finder? And in Cata, doing the starter reps in dungeons was just a pain in the ass? Etcetc.
Yes, maybe raidloggers were dragged and they screamed - not sure if it was "my territory", as if I am arguing agaisnt anyone - , but it was a thing nontheless. It was at least faster for them.

I don't know if it was faster or not I imagine it was but it was far,far less enjoyable. In the past people could raid log and dungeon run and be content in their own lane of the game.

Now you get bogged down in pointless and dull repetitive tasks grinding out bars to get your character up to the base line power you used to get at level cap and for what?

To appease those people who are so anti social they can't even communicate and form groups in a virtual environment? Now it seems we are building a entire progression system at end game with the express purpose of trying desperately to make players feel special since when we did it with loot is was to exclusionary.

I am just tired of this... I enjoy the game I really do but I admit every patch I know weigh how much I am going to be half afk watching a show on my second monitor grinding trash vs enjoying the parts of the game I love. I'm just tired of these constant changes to appease what I consider the worst of the playerbase in terms of both skill and community.