Page 12 of 37 FirstFirst ...
2
10
11
12
13
14
22
... LastLast
  1. #221
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    Take it up with blizzard. I could really care less what you do. I was just stating what i see their design goals as being.

    Ask yourself how you might make that argument with blizzard. I mean seriously. If all you have up your sleeve is .. you'r stupid I want to be optimal in all things. Well i'm very sure you're about to be disappointed with how SL turns out.


    They are going to design the game for what is the best overall for everyone that plays it.
    Yes, they are going to design the game how they think, i've given feedback to them and i'll continue to do so, and others have done so and will do the same.
    And Blizz will decide if they continue like it is or change it.
    They designed azerite gear and corruptions how they wanted them to be, how was that? Blizz can sure design the game without fault, eh?
    Blizz will also reap the "benefits" of this decision, be it more subs or less subs.

    But until then, you and others of your mindset have absolutely zero rights to dictate how me or others play.
    Including the desire to play optimally.

    Could you not chose talents? Why are you selecting them? That's the way to optimally play the game!
    Also gearing up is a nono, use the starter gear, your roleplay game would be bomb, why would you use the highest gear you can acquire? Nonsense!

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    What is optimal tunned for you? Becouse word balance most of the time doesnt mean what players think it means.
    Obviously, some abilities favor certain situations, so it's not as basic as boiling down how many percentage points away from one another is OK.

    My issue is more about setting, role, and specialization parity. Something like Fleshcraft, especially with the partial CC immunity soulbind, is going to be vastly more valuable in something like PvP or Tanking. Classes with poor mobility are inherently predisposed to wanting to be taking something like the Night Fae or Venthyr, even if they like the class ability from something like the Kyrian. You like Divine Toll? Too bad, you really want that mobility, so it hangs heavily more than your enjoyment of the class ability, aesthetic, story, etc.

    Then you have the individual specializations themselves. Things like...Deathborne being way, way better for Arcane. Primordial Blast being way, way better for Elemental.

    When you have hard to change modifiers like these being applied to classes that have modifiers that are already routinely swappable (spec, gear, setting such as PvE vs. PvP) then it becomes contradictory.


    On the other hand, let's do a thought experiment where changing Talents was as hard to change as a Covenant - 1.5 to 2 weeks. You'd be in a similar situation, but it would be much easier to swallow because it would be the talent row for one spec. When you swapped to a different spec, you'd have a different set of talents you were locked into for 1.5-2 weeks that reflected your goals for that spec. Your talents are reflecting your decision for that spec, but not that class.

    But since that class is now having everything rolled into those 2 abilities, regardless of role, now we're placed in a situation where there's a heavy weight on what someone should be able to do relative to their Covenant choice - not just for 1-2 weeks, but really for the entire expansion, considering that Renown will need to be grinded ahead on the newly changed Covenant, setting progression back in part.

    So this isn't really just about "This does 5% more than this," it also about how varied the game is on any given class and how Covenants often work against this. Shadowlands philosophy is about restoring focus back to class over spec, hence the depruning and higher amount of consistency between specs in certain abilities...but this kind of skullfucks that.

  3. #223
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    It depends. People mostly wont tell you to swap essences if you arledy have bis essences so. Since i run bis essences there is not really point telling me to swap essences right? But yes if there would be guy with some *** essences then you would propably wont get even invite or be told to swap. But if you are planing to do like +15 or heroc/mythic raiding then you propably alredy have bis essences so forcing you to get bis essences kinda doesnt make sense.

    And also if you didnt notice. Most people use exact same essences for their specs no becouse they want to but becouse they can spec into bis with 1 click. If you would restrict players and locking them into essence pick you would see far more people running around with different type of essence builds and nobady could force you into different one.
    If there was a bis essence and you wouldn't use it, you wouldn't even get invited in the first place.
    Same thing will occur with covenants. Enjoy!

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The covenants aren't buddies. They are allies against the jailer just like the Horde and Alliance. Lore has it so you lose your covenant abilities if you do another's ritual.
    Funny, I don't recall gaining reputation with the Horde. Three times over.

    What have I gotten wrong? I specifically asked you if I was right about losing covenant abilities because I hadn't gotten that far yet and you said I was correct.
    It's correct nominally, but there's no actual logic to it. But no, my main thing I'm stating you're wrong about is the attitude you have towards other players.

    People can feel accomplishment by instead of using skill and improving their rotations or reaction time finding outs whats op and using that? That's called a false accomplishment. An art thief can feel pride by stealing a work and passing it off as his own but the only accomplishment he has done is tricking people into believing he is better than he is. He didn't actually create a masterpiece.
    Then what the fuck is skill or accomplishment? Who determines that? Using the abilities at your disposal to make intelligent judgments in a timely manner to reduce the other team's/boss'/whatever HP to 0 while staying above 0 is the basis for gameplay in most games. What is this pretentiousness about art thievery? If that's not justification for someone having their own ability to accomplish something, what is and who gets to decide that? What gives them the right? If someone chooses what's good, that's within their right if they learn how to play it and execute it. It's the easy path, but it's their decision, and there will always be a flavor of the month to trend-chase. It's the nature of the beast.

    I'm not saying its terrible to want to feel op and use op skills to pwn noobs but to demand the ability to do so because they cant do it on their own is delusional and not healthy for a person or the game. And whats worse is that if Blizzard has to keep catering to people who demand instant swaps and shit it will just keep tumbling until its out of control. Where does it stop?
    This is literally a slippery slope fallacy.

    No fighting game character is amazing at everything. You have some with reach, others with power, others with easy combos and so on and so on. You asking for instant covenants is the same as asking for a perfect character with no downsides.
    How did you take the analogy already tailor made and butcher it this horribly?

    Covenant abilities, particularly the class ones, are still created around the strengths and weaknesses of the overall given class, even if some favor specific specializations. So no, having that ability to swap is not making a perfect character, because most still reflect that class' overall flavor/kit. That's a bullshit takeaway. Again, it would be more akin to only being allowed to have 1 of your 4 special moves or combinations.

    While I'm not advocating for fixed covenants it would lessen the "need" for a specific covenant. If nobody is perfect then they cant really bitch about other people either now can they?
    No. They absolutely can. Never underestimate that level of douchebaggery. Blizzard and their sycophants need to stop trying to "fix" the problem that cannot be fixed. It's so much easier to just...make a good game, and then let positive elements and voices of the community find one another.
    Last edited by Vakir; 2020-08-16 at 11:07 PM.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    It's not about what mythic raiders do in the game, it's what they are trying to turn the game into and have been for years often with a lot of success. I'm a mythic raider myself but I would gladly see the game be more like a RPG where you have strengths and weaknesses and have to compromise in how you build your character, not from a boss to boss basis but from a week to week or month to month basis. Load outs have never been a part of traditional RPGs and it seems that Ion have finally realized that so I expect this to be nothing but a testing ground for what's to come in the next expansion.
    We are not going to go back 15 years because you really liked kings quest...

    WoW has never been this way and it will only be that way briefly till this experiment explodes harder then azerite armor

  6. #226
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    The covenants aren't buddies. They are allies against the jailer just like the Horde and Alliance. Lore has it so you lose your covenant abilities if you do another's ritual.

    What have I gotten wrong? I specifically asked you if I was right about losing covenant abilities because I hadn't gotten that far yet and you said I was correct.

    People can feel accomplishment by instead of using skill and improving their rotations or reaction time finding outs whats op and using that? That's called a false accomplishment. An art thief can feel pride by stealing a work and passing it off as his own but the only accomplishment he has done is tricking people into believing he is better than he is. He didn't actually create a masterpiece.

    I'm not saying its terrible to want to feel op and use op skills to pwn noobs but to demand the ability to do so because they cant do it on their own is delusional and not healthy for a person or the game. And whats worse is that if Blizzard has to keep catering to people who demand instant swaps and shit it will just keep tumbling until its out of control. Where does it stop?

    No fighting game character is amazing at everything. You have some with reach, others with power, others with easy combos and so on and so on. You asking for instant covenants is the same as asking for a perfect character with no downsides.

    While I'm not advocating for fixed covenants it would lessen the "need" for a specific covenant. If nobody is perfect then they cant really bitch about other people either now can they? Just like most of the time people don't completely exclude a class or race from thier bg/raid/etc. Sure some people do but there were also people who would exclude people because they wanted to be the only shaman so if shaman gear would drop they would get it, and others who would exclude people because of a name or just to be a dick and be "funny". Blizzard tried to fix a problem players created because they are dicks by adding personal loot and yet you still have people kicking others if they don't trade it to a buddy or what not. Covenants being excluded isn't a problem with Blizzard but the playerbase which they are trying to curb by making it take time to switch back.



    I'm not telling you how to play the game Blizzard is. And you keep telling me how to play the game lol so lets see you give me my sub money. Atleast I'm actually playing how Blizzard wants me to. And everything you do effects your gameplay. If you spend 10 hours farming and 11 hours raiding/gearing up each week thats 21 hours you could have been using to hone your arena skills and being better at arena. Blizzard shouldn't need to help you out because you wanna do everything. If I wanna do arena, pet battles, raiding, dailies, mythic+, islands, and bgs clearly I wont be as good as I could be if I focused on one or two things but thats my choice. I shouldn't be handheld into a higher pvp rating and given free gear so I can instantly go into mythic raiding. It's your choice if you wanna do all that shit Blizzard doesn't have to give you anything they don't need to give you a choice in covenants just like they don't need to let you instantly swap.
    I'm not telling you how to play the game, i'm saying you can do wtf you want to do, if you want to not change covenants, then don't? if you want to.. then do? As opposed to me where you're saying i can't switch covenants.
    You're also pretty delusional if you don't think Blizzard needs to cater to their paying customers.
    Oh you're paying too? Well jee, wouldn't it be bad if you could swap covenants? What? It doesn't matter to you? Well shucks.
    It's either lockdown or not, not having a lockdown doesn't restrain you, instead a lockdown does restrain me.
    Get some common sense and then read the bolded part again.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    If there was a bis essence and you wouldn't use it, you wouldn't even get invited in the first place.
    Same thing will occur with covenants. Enjoy!
    You can free swap essences = people can demand bis. You cant free swap covenants people cant deman bis covenants. Fact you can free swap your loadout makes bis loadout mandatory and is reasonable to ask for you to have bis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    We are not going to go back 15 years because you really liked kings quest...

    WoW has never been this way and it will only be that way briefly till this experiment explodes harder then azerite armor
    WoW used not have lot of things and most of them what we have now are exact reason why current borowed power systems even exists so. Game used to no need this type of stuff becouse game wasnt acessible and covinient so players never got bored. Then WoD which was peak of raid logging and having nothing to do. WoW lost 50% playerbase during 1 expansion. AP system was answer to WoD content drought.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    You can free swap essences = people can demand bis. You cant free swap covenants people cant deman bis covenants. Fact you can free swap your loadout makes bis loadout mandatory and is reasonable to ask for you to have bis.
    I have 4 other DPS on the list that have Focusing Iris. They are M+ "specialists." You aren't. They get invited. It didn't take 3-5 hours (lol).

    OR.

    It is swappable, everyone can demand BIS, but at least everyone gets a better shot at being able to play (and maybe even learn what the best essences are for a situation if they didn't know, wow!).

  9. #229
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Bucharest, Romania
    Posts
    295
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    You can free swap essences = people can demand bis. You cant free swap covenants people cant deman bis covenants. Fact you can free swap your loadout makes bis loadout mandatory and is reasonable to ask for you to have bis.

    - - - Updated - - -



    WoW used not have lot of things and most of them what we have now are exact reason why current borowed power systems even exists so. Game used to no need this type of stuff becouse game wasnt acessible and covinient so players never got bored. Then WoD which was peak of raid logging and having nothing to do. WoW lost 50% playerbase during 1 expansion.
    Players will 100% demand the right covenants for your specific class or in the context of what's needed for the dungeon.
    You will not get invited if you do not fit the criteria. Your only hope is a 1/4 checkbox, where you had a 25% chance to have the right one.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    You can free swap essences = people can demand bis. You cant free swap covenants people cant deman bis covenants. Fact you can free swap your loadout makes bis loadout mandatory and is reasonable to ask for you to have bis.

    - - - Updated - - -



    WoW used not have lot of things and most of them what we have now are exact reason why current borowed power systems even exists so. Game used to no need this type of stuff becouse game wasnt acessible and covinient so players never got bored. Then WoD which was peak of raid logging and having nothing to do. WoW lost 50% playerbase during 1 expansion. AP system was answer to WoD content drought.
    The largest player loss that was ever recorded was in mop though... How does raid logging effect anything?

    Mythic raiders raided through the entire patch how is our retention the issue?

    You scream for busy work because you have no true goal of your own. Why lash out at us for your failings?

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakir View Post
    I have 4 other DPS on the list that have Focusing Iris. They are M+ "specialists." You aren't. They get invited. It didn't take 3-5 hours (lol).

    OR.

    It is swappable, everyone can demand BIS, but at least everyone gets a better shot at being able to play (and maybe even learn what the best essences are for a situation if they didn't know, wow!).
    Your group isnt only one forming group so 4 players with bis covenant for your specific dungeon where that covenant wont stay bis whole dungeon anyway isnt exactly much. There wont be any ultimate best covenant for mythic +. Threre will be bis covenant for dungeon A upto boss 2 if you are rogue with assa spec. Thats how covenants will work. If you really think 1 covenant stay bis in all mythic+ dungeons and in all type of bosses then you should wake up from your delusional dream.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    The largest player loss that was ever recorded was in mop though... How does raid logging effect anything?

    Mythic raiders raided through the entire patch how is our retention the issue?

    You scream for busy work because you have no true goal of your own. Why lash out at us for your failings?
    No it was in WoD. Game has to retain casual palyers first those are players what pay big money not few mythic raiders.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Your group isnt only one forming group so 4 players with bis covenant for your specific dungeon where that covenant wont stay bis whole dungeon anyway isnt exactly much. There wont be any ultimate best covenant for mythic +. Threre will be bis covenant for dungeon A upto boss 2 if you are rogue with assa spec. Thats how covenants will work. If you really think 1 covenant stay bis in all mythic+ dungeons and in all type of bosses then you should wake up from your delusional dream.
    No there is gonna be a bis for mythic+ just like a bis in mythic and a bis in pvp. They are desperately trying to stave this off by adding specific covenant buff in dungeons but at best that opens up a token spot

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Your group isnt only one forming group so 4 players with bis covenant for your specific dungeon where that covenant wont stay bis whole dungeon anyway isnt exactly much. There wont be any ultimate best covenant for mythic +. Threre will be bis covenant for dungeon A upto boss 2 if you are rogue with assa spec. Thats how covenants will work. If you really think 1 covenant stay bis in all mythic+ dungeons and in all type of bosses then you should wake up from your delusional dream.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No it was in WoD. Game has to retain casual palyers first those are players what pay big money not few mythic raiders.
    WoD lost players by giving "casuals" I know you mean bads btw free loot that was better then anything you could earn. Ironically trying to appeal to the worst of the playerbase always drives them away... its self defeating as all that fills their hearts is envy and rage.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    No there is gonna be a bis for mythic+ just like a bis in mythic and a bis in pvp. They are desperately trying to stave this off by adding specific covenant buff in dungeons but at best that opens up a token spot

    - - - Updated - - -



    WoD lost players by giving "casuals" I know you mean bads btw free loot that was better then anything you could earn. Ironically trying to appeal to the worst of the playerbase always drives them away... its self defeating as all that fills their hearts is envy and rage.
    No there wont be. Fact after so many months of aplha and beta and nobady can still tell us what is actualy bis for what only proves it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    No there is gonna be a bis for mythic+ just like a bis in mythic and a bis in pvp. They are desperately trying to stave this off by adding specific covenant buff in dungeons but at best that opens up a token spot

    - - - Updated - - -



    WoD lost players by giving "casuals" I know you mean bads btw free loot that was better then anything you could earn. Ironically trying to appeal to the worst of the playerbase always drives them away... its self defeating as all that fills their hearts is envy and rage.
    No WoD lost players becouse casual players had nothing to do which isnt case with now with transmog and ap systems what allow casual players base to play casualy and still have way to progress their characters.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    No there wont be. Fact after so many months of aplha and beta and nobady can still tell us what is actualy bis for what only proves it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No WoD lost players becouse casual players had nothing to do which isnt case with now with transmog and ap systems what allow casual players base to play casualy and still have way to progress their characters.
    People have figured out what is bis though for each class. At best healers are debating between 2 since one offers dps utility but no its been mathed out already

    Casual players had nothing to do because they got free loot from garisons you can't appeal to bad players its why tbc did so well. You build a good game and they latch on like leeches regardless of what caters to them

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    People have figured out what is bis though for each class. At best healers are debating between 2 since one offers dps utility but no its been mathed out already

    Casual players had nothing to do because they got free loot from garisons you can't appeal to bad players its why tbc did so well. You build a good game and they latch on like leeches regardless of what caters to them
    Nobady figured anything. Its all speculation.
    Freelot have nothing to do with it. Casuals burned their casual content and if they get free gear or not have nothing to do with it. Once they finished LFR there was nothing left for them.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Nobady figured anything. Its all speculation.
    Freelot have nothing to do with it. Casuals burned their casual content and if they get free gear or not have nothing to do with it. Once they finished LFR there was nothing left for them.
    Yes they figured it out its in the class discords no one has written a guide as balancing isnt finished and it isnt worth the effort...

    As for what motivates terrible players I doubt they are anything but fickle. Maybe a bar to mindless fill does keep them subbed I would find that rather sad if that was the case though.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    I just really don't like how much of the RPG aspect has been gutted out of WoW to appease these people. Like, for example, skill trees. Aside from stats, and I suppose character creation, there's barely any RPG left in the game :/

    - - - Updated - - -



    That wasn't what I meant. I mostly mean things involving skill trees, stats, etc. Character growth, tweaking and the like. Gameplay decisions and stuff.
    Because they stop being decisions when there's a clear best answer. As Classic shows, vanilla was even more cookie cutter and has even less space for player builds if you want to be a high performer, but we didn't know that yet when we played it back then. Expecting people to play a 15 years old game like they play a brand new one is silly.

    If you want that player design space, play a single player RPG where poor performance affects only the poor performer, or stick to stuff like LFR where close to nobody gives a toss even if you're swinging your mace in melee as a priest. If I want to make custom builds and go hogwild, I'll play Dragon Age Origins, Dark Souls or Pillars of Eternity where I can be a Druid in full plate shooting people with an arquebus and nobody will complain about my DPS. WoW is where the min-maxing happens.


    As for Covenants, knowing more about how they work now, most of their power resides in Soulbinds which are tied to Renown, which is itself quite time-gated. I don't see the need to stop us from switching easily anymore; if I'm renown 20 Venthyr and switch to renown 1 Necrolords, I'll be at a disadvantage anyway until I build back up to the desired renown level (there are catch-ups, but still). Put a daily cooldown on switching much like Soulbinds are on a weekly cooldown.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    This isn't how wow works though... people just drop the classes that don't perform and then sell those players carries later...

    I don't get all this hypothetical game crafting when we see the results of those actions play out in real time...

    This sums it up...
    I don't need Blizzard to hold my hand and protect me from other people. There's literally millions of people playing this game... you can find 5-20 that aren't weird assholes. I haven't had a problem for 15 years, and I don't need people whose revenue stream is based on being angry all the time telling me I suddenly need that protection built into the game. Even when signing up for pugs, I play some weird and sub optimal specs... I don't think I'm entitled to a spot in anyone's group just for logging into the game, I move past the "declined"s, and eventually do what I set out to do. This is a facet of every MMO since the beginning of the genre, you're never going to design it away until you make everyone the same exact thing with the same 5 buttons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    Finally, if you lock covenants then what? You stay like that, you play like that for everything the game offers, is this fun?
    Let's lock specs next if it's fun being locked, no?
    FYI, You can change Covenants.
    Last edited by Akibaboy; 2020-08-16 at 11:50 PM.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    I don't need Blizzard to hold my hand and protect me from other people. There's literally millions of people playing this game... you can find 5-20 that aren't weird assholes. I haven't had a problem for 15 years, and I don't need people whose revenue stream is based on being angry all the time telling me I suddenly need that protection built into the game. Even when signing up for pugs, I play some weird and sub optimal specs... I don't think I'm entitled to a spot in anyone's group just for logging into the game, I move past the "declined"s, and eventually do what I set out to do. This is a facet of every MMO since the beginning of the genre, you're never going to design it away until you make everyone the same exact thing with the same 5 buttons.


    FYI, You can change Covenants.
    I can kinda get your argument but it doesn't make any sense in response to what I said or if I am being honest the topic of the thread. It is super you do you... but what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    But until then, you and others of your mindset have absolutely zero rights to dictate how me or others play.
    Having a different opinion and voicing it. Is not at all the same thing as telling you how to play. Grow up.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •