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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Because they stop being decisions when there's a clear best answer. As Classic shows, vanilla was even more cookie cutter and has even less space for player builds if you want to be a high performer, but we didn't know that yet when we played it back then. Expecting people to play a 15 years old game like they play a brand new one is silly.

    If you want that player design space, play a single player RPG where poor performance affects only the poor performer, or stick to stuff like LFR where close to nobody gives a toss even if you're swinging your mace in melee as a priest. If I want to make custom builds and go hogwild, I'll play Dragon Age Origins, Dark Souls or Pillars of Eternity where I can be a Druid in full plate shooting people with an arquebus and nobody will complain about my DPS. WoW is where the min-maxing happens.


    As for Covenants, knowing more about how they work now, most of their power resides in Soulbinds which are tied to Renown, which is itself quite time-gated. I don't see the need to stop us from switching easily anymore; if I'm renown 20 Venthyr and switch to renown 1 Necrolords, I'll be at a disadvantage anyway until I build back up to the desired renown level (there are catch-ups, but still). Put a daily cooldown on switching much like Soulbinds are on a weekly cooldown.
    Classic hasnt showed anything. People you speak of are absolute minority. Casual players mostly pick w/e they want and do no swap talents becouse it cost huge amounth of gold and would make them broke. Problem is that people like you (mythic raiders, any mythic+ runners( lot of time force their playstyle on entire playerbase and think that playerbase play exactly how you play. I have bad news for you are one of hell minority. And Bliizzrd first of all wants to keep casual playerbase playing this game. Which means making game fun for casual playerbase. And restricting covenats will make game more fun for casual playerbase and less fun for minaxers. Wonder what audience will be priority.
    Last edited by Elias01; 2020-08-17 at 12:07 AM.

  2. #242
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akibaboy View Post
    I don't need Blizzard to hold my hand and protect me from other people. There's literally millions of people playing this game... you can find 5-20 that aren't weird assholes. I haven't had a problem for 15 years, and I don't need people whose revenue stream is based on being angry all the time telling me I suddenly need that protection built into the game. Even when signing up for pugs, I play some weird and sub optimal specs... I don't think I'm entitled to a spot in anyone's group just for logging into the game, I move past the "declined"s, and eventually do what I set out to do. This is a facet of every MMO since the beginning of the genre, you're never going to design it away until you make everyone the same exact thing with the same 5 buttons.


    FYI, You can change Covenants.
    The issue is with the ~2week grind to rejoin a covenant.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Classic hasnt showed anything. People you speak of are absolute minority. Casual players mostly pick w/e they want and do no swap talents becouse it cost huge amounth of gold and would make them broke. Problem is that people like you (mythic raiders, any mythic+ runners( lot of time force their playstyle on entire playerbase and think that playerbase play exactly how you play. I have bad news for you are one of hell minority. And Bliizzrd first of all wants to keep casual playerbase playing this game. Which means making game fun for casual playerbase. And restricting covenats will make game more fun for casual playerbase and less fun for minaxers. Wonder what audience will be priority.
    Right but there isn't a need to care about the people who don't care and pick whatever. There isn't a point to appealing to them since they are not invested enough to notice to start with.

  4. #244
    The Patient Rayzen17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    Having a different opinion and voicing it. Is not at all the same thing as telling you how to play. Grow up.
    Maybe you should actually understand what it means. Advocating to keep a restricting system because you don't want other players to switch because it's "bad to optimize" means exactly that, that you're telling them how to play the game.

    I'd tell you to grow up, but i'm sure you're trying your best, maybe you'll graduate in a few years.

  5. #245
    big yikes dude. Getting all worked up about something that's already set in stone. The entitlement is astronomical.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    Right but there isn't a need to care about the people who don't care and pick whatever. There isn't a point to appealing to them since they are not invested enough to notice to start with.
    Don't be stupid. Picking what you want =/= not caring and picking whatever. It is the exact opposite. They are the ones who actually want to make a meaningful choice, and you want there to not be a choice associated and just have a menu-selectable power. There is no point in appealing to the crowd that wants them free swappable, because they already aren't locked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    Maybe you should actually understand what it means. Advocating to keep a restricting system because you don't want other players to switch because it's "bad to optimize" means exactly that, that you're telling them how to play the game.
    That isn't telling you how to play the game. You are choosing to play the game that way.

    Let's be honest, both of you are basically just going "Waaaaaaah, I have to put in time and effort if I want to play optimally, please make it so I can click one button and be optimized!". Covenants are already fluid. The game doesn't need to be further watered down for the sake of """hardcore""" players who are too lazy to keep themselves optimized.

  7. #247
    Pandaren Monk Redroniksre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llyth View Post
    Except the hardcore scene also draws people of all skill levels into the game via streams and whatnot. It's free advertising. Without a hardcore scene they would lose tremendous amounts of money from this alone, not to mention the amount of char transfers the hardcore scene contributes with. My guild alone had well over 20 transfers done to buy BoEs cheap over this tier alone, and we're not even close to some of the guys I talk to.

    If you think that this is not a "dent" and that blizzard will keep the game running if it loses the money hardcore players bring in you are delusional.
    Right and how many RPers have payed to have race changes and so forth? Plenty of demographics pay a lot for in game purchases. And yes it is free advertising, except the one people watch are the ones who will play the game -regardless- of the increasing requirements. Nobody is watching the sub top 5 guilds, they are providing nothing (other than what you said) to Blizzard. So no i don't think it would still be a dent in the game.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayzen17 View Post
    Maybe you should actually understand what it means. Advocating to keep a restricting system because you don't want other players to switch because it's "bad to optimize" means exactly that, that you're telling them how to play the game.

    I'd tell you to grow up, but i'm sure you're trying your best, maybe you'll graduate in a few years.
    You are doing the same to the people that want to specialize in one type of content. Your being able to switch comes at the cost of sticking with one covenant being meaningless.

    You can't have what you want, unless the choice becomes meaningless for everyone else. Guess who's gonna lose that battle? Heh

  9. #249

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Don't be stupid. Picking what you want =/= not caring and picking whatever. It is the exact opposite. They are the ones who actually want to make a meaningful choice, and you want there to not be a choice associated and just have a menu-selectable power. There is no point in appealing to the crowd that wants them free swappable, because they already aren't locked.


    That isn't telling you how to play the game. You are choosing to play the game that way.

    Let's be honest, both of you are basically just going "Waaaaaaah, I have to put in time and effort if I want to play optimally, please make it so I can click one button and be optimized!". Covenants are already fluid. The game doesn't need to be further watered down for the sake of """hardcore""" players who are too lazy to keep themselves optimized.
    My issue is idealism vs reality. End of the day it just works to lock people out of higher level of play unless they want to level and gear a alt. I've been on beta for a while now and there isn't a way to change this sadly.

    It is an annoying thing to deal with but it is what it is another gimmick system blizz is gonna panic abandon like azerite.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    Classic hasnt showed anything. People you speak of are absolute minority. Casual players mostly pick w/e they want and do no swap talents becouse it cost huge amounth of gold and would make them broke. Problem is that people like you (mythic raiders, any mythic+ runners( lot of time force their playstyle on entire playerbase and think that playerbase play exactly how you play. I have bad news for you are one of hell minority. And Bliizzrd first of all wants to keep casual playerbase playing this game. Which means making game fun for casual playerbase. And restricting covenats will make game more fun for casual playerbase and less fun for minaxers. Wonder what audience will be priority.
    Sure, they're the minority. Do you even play Classic? There's more hardcore players than casuals remaining there because min-maxing and blowing up raids is all you can do unless you for some reason still partake in the abortion that is the PvP ranking system months behind.

    You still have failed to explain how stopping anyone from switching makes it more fun. Go ahead, tell me it's more RPG that way, I do need a laugh.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Sure, they're the minority. Do you even play Classic? There's more hardcore players than casuals remaining there because min-maxing and blowing up raids is all you can do unless you for some reason still partake in the abortion that is the PvP ranking system months behind.

    You still have failed to explain how stopping anyone from switching makes it more fun. Go ahead, tell me it's more RPG that way, I do need a laugh.
    It was posted earlier but i think you missed it nails the ' its a rpg" thing down pretty well

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    It was posted earlier but i think you missed it nails the ' its a rpg" thing down pretty well
    That's what I was mostly getting at, yeah. IMO all player power elements (so abilities and Soulbinds) should be freely swappable, or as I said on a daily cooldown at least. Leave the cosmetics, specific questlines and such hard to swap if need be, that's fine. The dungeon-specific bonuses can also stay as a nice perk.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

    The internet: where to every action is opposed an unequal overreaction.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by goldlock View Post
    Preach dabbing on people claiming choices should matter while ignoring how the questing system actually works (especially the daily jab) is hilarious.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    eh... given that this forum is all "doom and gloom" (hell free buff for increased exp was commented as something bad here) most likely scenario is that if anything goes "wrong" it will be so insignificant it will not matter at all...
    btw, there was a poll about using that fallback scenarion Ion mentioned (separating cov abilities from covenants) and it was roughly 85% against the idea (before getting closed by mod ) so its does not seem its 50/50, it seems its quite tilted in one direction, just the other direction is more vocal
    hmm, ok. i just have another opinion here (about the thematics itself, not about covenants). about the doom and gloom, i agree. but Covenants will be another „fiasco“ imo. ofc, you can replace that term by „shifts ppl and player type to another direction“, because it will end up in more players leaving, but also some others starting, because „cool Covenants“ and the way profit is made out of WoW moves further into another direction (more short term and more by smart cash grab systems). also the WoW community accepts a lot and is somewhat submissive/masochist and a lot will still further stay and accept it, even when they not like it. so in the end of the day you are maybe right and Blizz is just making the same or more amount of money, in another way. and we all have the freedom, to stop playing and quit, when things change in a direction we dont like. maybe its me, that not want to accept, that after 15 years this game is that far away driven from its roots, that its now time to say goodbye.

    in the end it matters, what exactly the term „goes wrong“ mean. and from which point of view.

    so, idk.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-08-17 at 01:07 AM.

  16. #256
    People should just chill about covenant. Nobody's watching your essences, your azerite traits,your corruptions or your optimization. People are just checking your RIO in 90% of the time and that's it. If you have a shitty RIO, this won't be because you took the wrong covenant, but because you're bad.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Isiolia View Post
    People should just chill about covenant. Nobody's watching your essences, your azerite traits,your corruptions or your optimization. People are just checking your RIO in 90% of the time and that's it. If you have a shitty RIO, this won't be because you took the wrong covenant, but because you're bad.
    This is pretty much the case. I play whatever I find fun, and I have a guild. We run through things successfully, my IO goes up, I get invited to groups. I pick the essences/traits/talents I find fun and use whatever random hodgepodge of corruptions landed in my bags.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Ealyssa View Post
    1)Little jimmy swap talents, little jimmy swap corruption, little jimmy swap specs. For BG, for arena, for dungeons, for raids, for open worlds. Please provide any data outside your garbage superiority complexe that little jimmy won't swap covenants ?

    Because of, drums rolling, game design choice.

    Mind blowing right ? You aren't managing game development, they are...
    And yes "wow is dying", "Blizzard don't know", "Blizzard are idiots", and yet. 16 years later, they are still here, going strong. While 97.5% of MMOs from Vanilla launch til 2020 are dead.

    Do they always create good mechanics ? Obviously not. I stopped wow for the first time since 2004 because I just hate the corruption system. So what ? Should they just scrap it because I don't like it ? Should they make it irrelevant just because I don't like it ? No, they stick to their design choice. And that's fine. You can't please everyone.

    I will try SL. And I'm allready commited on my covenants purely based on their lore and asthetic by class. I know my choice won't prevent me to perform well at MM+, It won't stop me to clear every mythic raid with my guild like I always did. It won't prevent me to do arenas.

    And if by any chance my choices are such a burden that it really prevents me to clear every content I'm used to clear. I will stop playing wow again, really not that complicated.
    I certainly won't be crying outloud on forum about how desperate I am that a video game doesn't cave to every single desires I have...

    TL;DR The risk of the system failing obviously exist, doesn't mean I'm no excited about having an actual choice to make that will define the character for the ~2years of the expansion.
    you see blizzard makes design choices like this and say "we know what we are doing" and in the case of bfa some devs and blues took to twitter to tell players they were wrong. You had blues on the forums telling posters that titanforging wasnt going anywhere and the only reason they cared is because they cared about other players. In every one of those cases the devs changed their mind months after the fact and said "we hear your feedback and agree" and personally i dont see why they are wasting time on a system that players are already tearing holes into.

    Little jimmy wont swap because in the mindset of the OP he even says so but lets say that jimmy does swap....he is going to run into the issues that testers are pointing out right now and he is going to wonder "why cant i do the same thing i have done for over a decade??". Now lets take your character for example and say that you are super happy in your covenant and you like your ability. Now lets say they nerf the ability by 30%, which historically is possible, and then you decide you want to swap only to see you dont enjoy the covenant so you want to go back BUT now theres some kind of barrier to get back in. Does that feel good??

    You seem to think im crying that the game is dead and if they dont make the change it will ruin the game.
    1. you are very mistaken
    2. It wont ruin the game any more than the mythic gear lock did but its still shitting on players because "they arent having fun the right way"

    in WoD lfr gear was changed because blizzard was of the mindset "lfr should be a stepping stone not endgame" players gave feedback and the ones who used it as endgame told players who didnt even touch it "dont tell us how we should play." and the same thing happened with flying.

    You call it whining and complaining and say "we should trust blizzard to fix it" fuck no we should give feedback which is what people are doing because trusting blizzard gets azerite gear. The big thing right now is how the ones giving feedback on the system are having posts flagged by those who dont want them to have some form of choice. Im not saying make covenants swappable because the idea of pledging yourself to one of these factions and getting special weekly stuff and soul binds with mounts and gear is AWESOME 10/10 system. Tying a talent to it that you get to use while leveling but then get told "no you cant use it now" is bad and it shows if you play and off spec or dont want to be ok with being weaker one day because blizz nerfed your ability.

    Again theres no argument against letting players swap the abilities if they want because ppl conflate it with swapping covenants or just say "well you cant always be optimal" its not even about being optimal its about being able to compete with other players of the same spec, Its about not feeling gimped because you play multiple specs, its about not being locked into a choice that blizzard will inevitably screw with, its about being able to do multiple sets of content and not feeling weaker because of a talent choice that is locked in and swapping is gated.

    If someone can give a good reason as to why me swapping a covenant ability is a bad thing for them then i will agree but right now its just people trying to control how others play because they see it as wrong.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    CE player here... Actually world top raider for a long time once upon a time.

    My message: Stop caring about being 100% optimal all the time.
    Enjoy a game design that allows you to make choices that are -fun- for you to play with.
    Actual CE player here. If your not trying to optimize your gear then be prepared to be pugging with losers. The better players like myself will simply not invite you. I have been playing since vanilla and I have always had minimum requirements to join my alt runs. With the addition of mythic+ it's become even more important to make sure bads don't accidently pass the filters. Knowing someone's covenant will help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  20. #260
    Imagine people are scared that their covenant doesn't fit the "100% optimal-setup" just so the can play with degenerate players that are no fun to play with in the first place.

    This is when WoW stops being a game about having fun and starts being a game about some weird e-peen flex fetish.

    If someone can give a good reason as to why me swapping a covenant ability is a bad thing for them then i will agree but right now its just people trying to control how others play because they see it as wrong.
    It's simply not special anymore if you can switch every few minutes.
    It doesn't fit the in-game description of the whole thing, it will feel absolutely meaningless from a RPG point of view. My game experience in an RPG is worse if decisions I make have absolutely no meaning. It's like making a decision to kill an NPC in a story/playthrough just to have the option to respawn him later on because you found out that he'd sell an epic weapon if you leave him alive. Just knowing the possibility exist is enough.

    What was the Legion dungeon called again.. the one inside Suramar? It had buffs you could use depending on class and professions. That's actually something that should be all over the world, in every dungeon, in every raid, in every quest zone.
    Covenants are part of that.
    Add more stuff like that and you'll eventually get to a part where it's no longer feasable to have the "optimal" build - and that's when it will stop being a "problem" for everyone... and you will actually have an RPG on top of that. It's not even going far enough to my liking.

    They just have to make sure that all things add up to a certain degree of usefulness.
    Since they are working with borrowed powers, this is something that can certainly be done.

    I think doing a questline that will take a decent amount of time to finish, maybe even put it on a "weekly reset" is a good enough compromise for it to make sense...depending on what you actually do when you fight for your Covenant of course - you could also go with a reputation system too.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-08-17 at 05:38 AM.

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