"Does it matter to you casuals if we hardcores get fluid covenants?" Yes, here's why.

[razorpax]

It's not even that, it's the fact that when everything's that fluid with a clear and obvious answer to every encounter, then the game naturally has less opportunity of friction. Design a cool boss fight with a lot of different aspects? Ok, well it's naturally easier when you can build a custom kit specifically for that fight. For example, Would the game be easier or harder if there were no classes, and you can just put any ability you want on your bar? You'd swap to every single perfect ability for that exact fight that wowgodonline tells you to and the game would be the easiest version of itself. "But you can choose to not do that, how does me choosing that affect you?" You and I are not the people this decision affects the most - it's the game itself that's suffering, because it ceases to be anything, or to have an identity.

Friction is in a way the most important aspect in video games, as our sense of satisfaction is directly proportional to the amount of it we overcome via our actions and choices. If you can choose anything at any time, then it's a) not a choice and b) devoid of friction. The Covenant system 100% allows you to change your Covenant at your choosing, just not without friction. Asking for it to have zero friction means it stops being a part of the gameplay - it's now just a piece of the UI, a Facebook game where you click the icon and have been told "Congrats! You did the right thing!" You enter the easiest version of the dungeon your UI presses could piece together for you, and are never asked "What would this be like if I had both strengths AND weaknesses."

again im not asking for swapping covenants

its just swapping the talent like abilities that we already get to use while leveling

theres 2 interactions within the covenant for these abilities and they arent very deep or complex

the covenant choice is possibly the greatest thing coming out of this expansion but tying player power to it just to make sure everyone really cares about it when you already have story and cosmetics is going to lead people to having a bad time. Handwaving that away because "the game needs choice with friction" doesnt work in a competitive mmo. Give me the cosmetic and story choices and ill still care heck keep the soul binds and again ill still care but keeping the abilities tied to it goes from it being a complex choice i care about to being a pain in the ass if i want to do the best i can. It wouldnt even be that bad if the abilities were locked per spec because the abilities arent balanced to be useful to every spec. This is now used as a solution that i guess existed for over 15 years and nobody really cared. The friction or barriers of entry to doing something like m+ or heroic raiding has always been gear in one way or another and blizzard could bring that back but instead they screw with the class design.

This is literally the main butt nugget in an otherwise amazing expansion. You add more opportunities of failure. You add more opportunities of exclusion. This isnt just for top end players its going to be for little jimmy lfr who thinks "i wanna do m+...what do you mean i need X covenant for Y dungeon??" The community is going to hurt itself more with this system than the top end and its going to suck for everyone except those of us who dont live in the pug world.

[Dismayxz]

Not OP, but i disagree. Not everything has to be hotswappable. I know for a fact if people could swap talents mid fight people would be doing it. My position is, i think min maxxers should be ignored, they make up such a small amount i couldnt care if they even left the game.

Side note. I used to complain about group requirements back in Legion (the classic AoTC normal). The common response by min maxers was "make your own group". Funny how now that they might be affected they suddenly dont like it.

Make your own group.

The first flaw there is somehow managing to believe that random PuG Leader dickhead #32532 is a min/maxer or part of the arguably small percentage of them. There's a difference between being a min/maxer and being the kind of idiot that usually can't play a class for shit (aka making the min/maxing void and null, when the very basis of how effective your chase for the most optimal number is going to be is already a factor that's dead in the water) and thus has to 'make their own free carry', which is what I like to call the 'Make your own group' crowd from back then (and still to an extent today).

[razorpax]

Imagine people are scared that their covenant doesn't fit the "100% optimal-setup" just so the can play with degenerate players that are no fun to play with in the first place.

This is when WoW stops being a game about having fun and starts being a game about some weird e-peen flex fetish.

ok so how about you keep playing the game how you want and not tell those who like being optimal that they are having fun the wrong way.

[Cyranis]

Again theres no argument against letting players swap the abilities if they want because ppl conflate it with swapping covenants or just say "well you cant always be optimal" its not even about being optimal its about being able to compete with other players of the same spec, Its about not feeling gimped because you play multiple specs, its about not being locked into a choice that blizzard will inevitably screw with, its about being able to do multiple sets of content and not feeling weaker because of a talent choice that is locked in and swapping is gated.

If someone can give a good reason as to why me swapping a covenant ability is a bad thing for them then i will agree but right now its just people trying to control how others play because they see it as wrong.

It's really simple. Blizzard does not think encouraging this method of gameplay is healthy for the game. So they actively discourage it through development. They have been doing it for years. If you think about it, every major system has been towards this goal. Sure they walked some of them back. And others they just switch up the method. The goal has never once changed.

They are 100% against what you want.

[Gref]

back in tbc we changed from aldor to scryer and vice versa and nobody said shit about it, or the murloc kind of people during wrath of the lich kind and nobody complained about the rep farm.

I do not understand all the talk about this.
you have to make a choice. as a warrior main since vanilla, i either choose; maldraxxus to look like a badass and with a cool concept of a banner to rally my allies (rp) + somewhat of a bloodlust every 3 mins?

or

i go venthry and fucking execute the shit out of everything from first %20 then last %20.

the choice is clear if you want to do hc raiding / +plus around10~15.

[razorpax]

It's really simple. Blizzard does not think encouraging this method of gameplay is healthy for the game. So they actively discourage it through development. They have been doing it for years. If you think about it, every major system has been towards this goal. Sure they walked some of them back. And others they just switch up the method. The goal has never once changed.

They are 100% against what you want.

That is why people are providing feedback. Especially when they have this mindset with this solution that wont really work. Ion tried comparing covenants to artifact weapons.

I get what they want to do and its a good goal but this is not going to achieve that goal. They made gear simpler which goes against the idea of "rpg choices matter". Not one time in the last 6 years has their attempt to make this stuff happen actually worked.
Lock m+ gear?? Well ppl will do skips and create a stricter meta.
remove master loot?? Well more split runs.
Ilvl restrictions on trading?? Well ppl are gonna craft high ilvl loot that is useless for them but allows them to trade.
lfr gear change?? Well that was just straight up dropped.
no flight?? dropped but we got pathfinder

This new system is essentially what they planned for azerite and i dont see why they dont just have an anima cost attached. Literally just make it to where if you need 100 anima for the next renown level instead you use it to rejoin an old covenant. The system still provides "friction" and "choice with consequences" while not gimping some players who want to play multiple specs. I mean imagine swapping to your off spec but keeping your main spec azerite gear.

Blizzard are stubborn to the point it doesnt make sense. M+ cache at the beginning of bfa dropping azerite armor as the single piece instead of the extra even though that change wasnt mentioned in the notes or by any news site and blizzards response "we made it a week before beta ended its your fault if you didnt notice" all while saying "this is how it worked in legion" and "azerite is a replacement for leggos". The result was after a couple months they compromised and fed us the "we heard you and agree" line.

The system will change but i would prefer they not be so stubborn that it makes people have to wait for months after launch.

- - - Updated - - -

back in tbc we changed from aldor to scryer and vice versa and nobody said shit about it, or the murloc kind of people during wrath of the lich kind and nobody complained about the rep farm.

I do not understand all the talk about this.
you have to make a choice. as a warrior main since vanilla, i either choose; maldraxxus to look like a badass and with a cool concept of a banner to rally my allies (rp) + somewhat of a bloodlust every 3 mins?

or

i go venthry and fucking execute the shit out of everything from first %20 then last %20.

the choice is clear if you want to do hc raiding / +plus around10~15.

because if you went aldor and bought the rewards then went scryer...you didnt lose anything

[KrayZ33]

ok so how about you keep playing the game how you want and not tell those who like being optimal that they are having fun the wrong way.

Because the way you have fun stops development? You are limiting design decisions as small as this covenant stuff in fear of unequal performance in every single situation - which isn't given in any form anyway because classes still perform differently - in every single situation.

[fatgunn]

Most of this argument can be distilled down to one question Ion asked Preach during their discussion. @14:43 Is it ideal for every hunter doing a mythic raid encounter to be the same, and the only difference being who executes the rotation and mechanic better? Preach believes so, Ion doesn't.

Group A: Definitely want that. They want to do everything in their power to make their character as good as possible. They want to look at that other hunter and compete and know that skill is what defined who is better. And this is probably the camp a majority of higher end players fall in.

Group B: Want their hunter to be different. They don't want to just be a BM Hunter, they want to be a Kyrian BM Hunter. This player, ideally, accepts that their choice will benefit them on some fights and hinder them on others.


If there were clear demarcations between the groups based on content then this wouldn't be a problem. Blizz could just have a covenant swapping token drop from Mythic raids or high m+. But there are Type A players at all levels not just the top, and the social pressures of guilds and groups means that if the covenants are easily swappable then Type B players will be coerced/guilted/forced to change for their peers. This system will inherently frustrate Type A players but Blizz has seemed to decide that it's worth it.

[Flantini]

This is pretty much the case. I play whatever I find fun, and I have a guild. We run through things successfully, my IO goes up, I get invited to groups. I pick the essences/traits/talents I find fun and use whatever random hodgepodge of corruptions landed in my bags.

I do this too! The unfortunate part is that when picking essences, for my BM hunter I have the most fun with Blood Of The Enemy in raids and M+, but I have the most fun with Reaping Flames on my SV hunter in pvp! So one group here is advocating for "pick whatever you have the most fun with" and the other is "pick whatever youll have the most fun with but you cant change it from activity to activity so lololol if its not the same for you min/max scum."

Which brings us back to the argument which is why? Why limit when there is a very clear answer for each given scenario? Because YOU don't want to feel forced? well you aren't!! if you want to do low M keys and a few bosses in heroic awesome! I hope you do well and have fun! If I want to push gladiator and mythic raids why would you want make me choose what to be optimal in? (esp. when its never happened before in borrowed powers).

[qwerty123456]

Funny, I don't recall gaining reputation with the Horde. Three times over.

It's correct nominally, but there's no actual logic to it. But no, my main thing I'm stating you're wrong about is the attitude you have towards other players.

Then what the fuck is skill or accomplishment? Who determines that? Using the abilities at your disposal to make intelligent judgments in a timely manner to reduce the other team's/boss'/whatever HP to 0 while staying above 0 is the basis for gameplay in most games. What is this pretentiousness about art thievery? If that's not justification for someone having their own ability to accomplish something, what is and who gets to decide that? What gives them the right? If someone chooses what's good, that's within their right if they learn how to play it and execute it. It's the easy path, but it's their decision, and there will always be a flavor of the month to trend-chase. It's the nature of the beast.

This is literally a slippery slope fallacy.

How did you take the analogy already tailor made and butcher it this horribly?

Covenant abilities, particularly the class ones, are still created around the strengths and weaknesses of the overall given class, even if some favor specific specializations. So no, having that ability to swap is not making a perfect character, because most still reflect that class' overall flavor/kit. That's a bullshit takeaway. Again, it would be more akin to only being allowed to have 1 of your 4 special moves or combinations

No. They absolutely can. Never underestimate that level of douchebaggery. Blizzard and their sycophants need to stop trying to "fix" the problem that cannot be fixed. It's so much easier to just...make a good game, and then let positive elements and voices of the community find one another.

You may not have gained rep gameplay wise but you sure have saved their assess a thousand times more often than you helped out the covenants. You even helped get their city back from genocidal monsters twice.

There's no actual logic to a ritual possibly overwriting another when when we already know all over lore other magic writes over other magic all the time like with enchants, runes, spells, polymorphs, etc.....? And so far it seems like that's what actually happens in the beta atleast from what you have told me.

Have you never played a game where players use identical characters? Like what can often happen in fighting games? Skill is when all things equal you are able to take them. Since you seem to think my art analogy was pretentious lets use a little more "common folk" one for you: If you buy a thousand prostitutes does that mean you have the skill to pick up ladies? No. You may have slept with 9995 more women than most people but you still have no skill at picking up women. You may have an amazing skill at making money to be able to afford all of them depending on what they charge but you still have no skill at actually dating a woman or interacting with them without paying for sex and you have never accomplished actually asking a woman on a date. If you still don't understand the concept of skill after that may I suggest to you learning how to use google.

And how is it a slippery slope fallacy? Prove to me that giving in to whiny little bitches would make them never bitch again. Did a guy troll Blizzard and claim to be a woman who thought Ji firepaw was rapey by saying "her" female character was good looking? Yes. And did Blizzard change the dialogue? Yes. Did that then cause more trolls to troll Blizzard like Tracer's butt pose? Yes. And did Blizzard cave in even more and pander even more? Yes. Whats to stop this from having the same consequences?

Uh no your analogy doesn't make any sense. A fighting game character already has its kit built in. You don't change anything out. Each individual spec is like its own fighter. So if you are an arcane mage with a covenant teleport ability you would be like a low health but high dmg and mobility fighter. Instant swaps lets you change out a little bit of the mobility for maybe more health or some shit(in this fighting game example) meaning you now can easily survive the hits of your opponent when you see that its a fast light dmg range specialist hitter who would normally destroy an equally skilled arcane teleport mage. You now won the fight through no skill of your own other than knowing what his counter was. You then do the same for every other player you fight against because you can pick the most op skill for each situation. So thats how you are asking for a perfect character with no downsides. You can cheese every fight because you can switch part of your character without changing the character itself.

So you disagree that personal loot helped lower the number of assholes? Clearly Blizzard does help lower the number of dick head players. Does it make it 0? No but having 1/4th of the original number of dbags is alot better then letting them run rampant.

I'm not telling you how to play the game, i'm saying you can do wtf you want to do, if you want to not change covenants, then don't? if you want to.. then do? As opposed to me where you're saying i can't switch covenants.
You're also pretty delusional if you don't think Blizzard needs to cater to their paying customers.
Oh you're paying too? Well jee, wouldn't it be bad if you could swap covenants? What? It doesn't matter to you? Well shucks.
It's either lockdown or not, not having a lockdown doesn't restrain you, instead a lockdown does restrain me.
Get some common sense and then read the bolded part again.

Yeah Blizzard is listening to its paying customers who like having to make actual choices. It's sad that you feel they need to listen to an extremely small minority of an extremely small minority. And if players can demand you swap covenants then it most certainly does effect people who don't want to.

Again theres no argument against letting players swap the abilities if they want because ppl conflate it with swapping covenants or just say "well you cant always be optimal" its not even about being optimal its about being able to compete with other players of the same spec, Its about not feeling gimped because you play multiple specs, its about not being locked into a choice that blizzard will inevitably screw with, its about being able to do multiple sets of content and not feeling weaker because of a talent choice that is locked in and swapping is gated.

If someone can give a good reason as to why me swapping a covenant ability is a bad thing for them then i will agree but right now its just people trying to control how others play because they see it as wrong.

Because it makes people believe they are better than they actually are? And if some day blizzard actually balance shit perfectly then what? Suddenly they are complaining because they no longer can do the content they used to. And whats going to happen when Blizzard comes back and tells them they can't just nerf people in arena because they are now losing 90% of their matches?

Relying on op powers for each situation means you can't grow as a person or a player.

[mysticx]

ok so how about you keep playing the game how you want and not tell those who like being optimal that they are having fun the wrong way.

But the current state of the covenant system is *Blizzard* telling you you're "Playing the wrong way", or at least being a bit overly fixated on being 100% optimized for absolutely everything.

I'm guessing (As somebody who doesn't work at Blizzard, that's as close as i'll get to knowing for sure) that being great at some things and less so at others is the design intention, and covenants being a bit more involved than "Give me a sec, i'll switch specs" is their intention too, how is any choice meaningful if you can change your mind at the drop of a hat?

[T-34]

I do this too! The unfortunate part is that when picking essences, for my BM hunter I have the most fun with Blood Of The Enemy in raids and M+, but I have the most fun with Reaping Flames on my SV hunter in pvp! So one group here is advocating for "pick whatever you have the most fun with" and the other is "pick whatever youll have the most fun with but you cant change it from activity to activity so lololol if its not the same for you min/max scum."

Which brings us back to the argument which is why? Why limit when there is a very clear answer for each given scenario? Because YOU don't want to feel forced? well you aren't!! if you want to do low M keys and a few bosses in heroic awesome! I hope you do well and have fun! If I want to push gladiator and mythic raids why would you want make me choose what to be optimal in? (esp. when its never happened before in borrowed powers).

Because he and others are interested in a system where the good players have it as difficult as possible to filter out the bad players, as bad players need good players to get them through content. And the bad players are the majority in WoW.
It is the same reason why there are so many that rage against damage meters, Raider IO, warcraftlogs, demand that "armoury should be private".

Blizzard keeps trying to make systems that obfuscate your ability to discern "good" players from "bad" players as the "bad" are the majority.
But the "good" players quickly break Blizzard's "code" and adapt to these obfuscating systems. And the "bad" players are again left behind, flooding all available forums with their laments about "gate-keeping" etc.

The only way to stop this constant conflict is to design the game so that player input would have no effect on the game world, but that would be to much even for the "bad" players.
The best thing "good" players can do is to gather information about the systems, analyse that information and use it to select whom you play with to maximize your enjoyment of the game.

[Rayzen17]

Don't be stupid. Picking what you want =/= not caring and picking whatever. It is the exact opposite. They are the ones who actually want to make a meaningful choice, and you want there to not be a choice associated and just have a menu-selectable power. There is no point in appealing to the crowd that wants them free swappable, because they already aren't locked.


That isn't telling you how to play the game. You are choosing to play the game that way.

Let's be honest, both of you are basically just going "Waaaaaaah, I have to put in time and effort if I want to play optimally, please make it so I can click one button and be optimized!". Covenants are already fluid. The game doesn't need to be further watered down for the sake of """hardcore""" players who are too lazy to keep themselves optimized.

Are you dense? Do you have a lack of understanding? I can't choose to play the game like i want to play. It's basic logic, if you go against my way of play, you're telling me i can't play like that.
You guys have zero, absolutely zero understanding of what you're asking for and its implications to other players.

I'm not sure if you guys are that ignorant though, you understand and you know what you're asking for, so cut the "i'm not telling you how to play" bullshit when you know that that's what you're advocating for.

Also you think someone who plays multiple areas at high and high-med levels of the game doesn't put in effort? Okay, lol.. i'm sure you're "efforting" doing dailies and lfr, carry on.

[Rayzen17]

You are doing the same to the people that want to specialize in one type of content. Your being able to switch comes at the cost of sticking with one covenant being meaningless.

You can't have what you want, unless the choice becomes meaningless for everyone else. Guess who's gonna lose that battle? Heh

You know full well that that's a lie. Those who want to specialize in 1 type of content, can do so without prohibition. Hey look, i've chosen my raid Covenant and my ST soulbinds and now i am specialized in raiding, i feel no need to specialize in other areas so i'll just stay as a raid specialist.
Look, they can specialize how they want with unlocked covenants too. That was hard, it's like your problem, does not exist?

You can chose to remain with 1 covenant and that choice would be meaningful if you could switch freely but chose not to, you sticking with 1 covenant because of the game, makes your choice less meaningful. So you see? It's more meaning to have these able to be switched freely than not.

Me choosing to switch 2-3 covenants per day does not reduce your meaningful choice if you chose to not switch, it reinforces it.

So basically there is no issue with letting covenants be freely switchable, it actually reinforces your "meaningful choice".

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah Blizzard is listening to its paying customers who like having to make actual choices. It's sad that you feel they need to listen to an extremely small minority of an extremely small minority. And if players can demand you swap covenants then it most certainly does effect people who don't want to.

You have zero proof of who's the minority or majority here. But you can keep thinking that way.

[Ragingheadache]

For me the issue is nothing to do with "casual vs hardcore" - which itself is a stupid context for any game design. The root issue is that we allow players to switch talents inside a dungeon / raid and this has resulted in the drive for constant optimal character set up for each encounter. There is no need for players to weigh up the pros and cons of a build for an entire raid and that is why we have the fuss now about Covenants. There should be hard limits as to what a player can do once they enter a dungeon to the extent that players should be stopped from leaving, respeccing and then re-entering. The old pre-Cata game had the design ethos right - allocate your trait points and play that specialisation as a fundamental aspect of character progression.

[Rayzen17]

For me the issue is nothing to do with "casual vs hardcore" - which itself is a stupid context for any game design. The root issue is that we allow players to switch talents inside a dungeon / raid and this has resulted in the drive for constant optimal character set up for each encounter. There is no need for players to weigh up the pros and cons of a build for an entire raid and that is why we have the fuss now about Covenants. There should be hard limits as to what a player can do once they enter a dungeon to the extent that players should be stopped from leaving, respeccing and then re-entering. The old pre-Cata game had the design ethos right - allocate your trait points and play that specialisation as a fundamental aspect of character progression.

There was never a hard time switching your talents, you paid a small fee, you switched.

Totally different than doing a 2 week grind to re-join a covenant.

[KrayZ33]

Me choosing to switch 2-3 covenants per day does not reduce your meaningful choice if you chose to not switch, it reinforces it.

So basically there is no issue with letting covenants be freely switchable, it actually reinforces your "meaningful choice".

That is not true...the ability to choose freely just like that is enough to make my decision feel meaningless.
You might disagree and not care about how people perceive stuff, but that doesn't make it any less true.
Consequences that can be changed on a whim aren't consequences.
Decisions that involve picking a covenant you back, aren't decisions when you just back all of them, even if they stand in direct conflict with each other.

Playing, for exmaple, a Holy Order character that doesn't strictly have to follow the views and aspect of that Holy Order whenever he sees fit, or the situation becomes "inconvenient" limits or changes my view about the experience. Wether I actually decide to follow it or not doesn't matter, when the game I'm playing is basically saying "you know, we usually follow our order rules, but that's more of a suggestion than a requirement"

Being limited to what you have and can do, can actually be fun and isn't always bad, and RPGs are all about that in actuality. And you don't have to try-hard roleplay when you do that. It affects the world and world building even if you don't.

[Rayzen17]

That is not true...the ability to choose freely just like that is enough to make my decision feel meaningless.
You might disagree and not care about how people perceive stuff, but that doesn't make it any less true.
Consequences that can be changed on a whim aren't consequences.

Hey look, you said it right here "perceive stuff", so your issue is with how you perceive this.
Well guess what, being locked in is not something perceived, it's something real affecting gameplay with each decision when switching.

There are real benefits to switching, your perceived meaningful choice is not something palpable.

[Flantini]

For me the issue is nothing to do with "casual vs hardcore" - which itself is a stupid context for any game design. The root issue is that we allow players to switch talents inside a dungeon / raid and this has resulted in the drive for constant optimal character set up for each encounter. There is no need for players to weigh up the pros and cons of a build for an entire raid and that is why we have the fuss now about Covenants. There should be hard limits as to what a player can do once they enter a dungeon to the extent that players should be stopped from leaving, respeccing and then re-entering. The old pre-Cata game had the design ethos right - allocate your trait points and play that specialisation as a fundamental aspect of character progression.

The issue isnt necessarily whats optimal/best but most importantly whats fun for me in any given content. With content demands/challenges changing so much between M+/pvp/raids, (especially different roles!) whats fun for me also changes. So with the system the way it is I have to choose when I have the most fun and when I want to have less fun, which is a bad system in MY opinion.

Again, as the system is in BFA, you can pick a sub optimal essence that YOU have more fun with (Ie Focusing Iris for big kamehamehas) and that's fine. You can also change them given what content/role you are playing and that's fine. That's all anyone is asking for is that we can continue to play our class the way the individual player finds the most fun in ANY given content, rather than feel forced into some kind of "sub class option" that's incredibly difficult to change.

[Ragingheadache]

There was never a hard time switching your talents, you paid a small fee, you switched.

Totally different than doing a 2 week grind to re-join a covenant.

You didn't read my post. I didn't refer specifically to covenants as a once-only choice. My issue is that players have far too much freedom inside raids & dungeons to change talents and it is that need to constantly optimal for each pull that is, imo, the heart of the issue.

The constraints put on a player for how & when they can change covenants is a completely separate matter, but one that cannot be addressed until such time as Blizzard gets to grip with the situation they have created re talents.