When did the Forsaken change?

[Super Dickmann]

I would argue that this "rewriting" is just bringing a lesser known, but indeed long present aspect of certain members of the Forsaken (and defectors) into plain view. The characters I've been fascinated by for years have been so minor that I wouldn't fault anyone for completely overlooking them. I don't think it is a bad thing if some of the Forsaken espouse tragic nobility, while others are openly scornful of the living.

Interesting post overall, but no, BTS isn't a return to anything. The Classic Forsaken and the BTS Forsaken are inherently different, especially since much of what both you and @Thage say about the Classic Forsaken can be wholly dismissed by just playing the intro, let alone doing quests. A minority is not the majority, outliers are outliers because they do not represent the status quo. They're just the ones that act differently based on the premises provided. The Forsaken intro told you flat out that the Forsaken had no bonds to their allies and were willing to get rid of anyone who got in their way, the site called them harbingers of doom, it takes about three quests before the rogue trainer tells you about the new world order and it's by level 5 that you're testing the new plague on a captive, discounting all the other things you do.

The funniest argument thus far being the one guy who I legit don't recall the username of claiming that it's precisely Calia's lack of any link to the Forsaken that makes her fit to be in them because after all they're different and the Forsaken are different, right? This and your otherwise interesting post hit on the same point that @Aucald runs into hard, namely the idea about how these races aren't homogenous is being used to push a sentiment that pretty much every outcrop and identity are equally valid and expressive of the race, once again in the same way the Highborne Duo on the forums point out an elf using arcane and decide that constitutes a highly essential element of the present night elf identity. The baseline and the status quo are essential - they constitute the core of the race. In the same way that a tauren can choose to be violent towards outsiders this doesn't mean that tauren in general aren't gentle giants and that the Forsaken value free will doesn't mean that every attitude is equally supported or relevant to their identity and that a handful characters suddenly hold just as much weight as the majority.

This is especially the case when, as with your post and as with Aucald, the fact that the Forsaken are shown to be people rather than comically evil 24/7 is used as some kind of gotcha about how actually the BTS Forsaken are entirely on theme because they too are nice, disregarding context and purpose. Someone like Darkmar bailing on the Forsaken in a society that values free will and self-expression are defied and so he acts of his own accord with like minded people, one person honoring their ally's last wish (cheers for reminding me of that quest by the way) while another is scornful are leagues apart from a society of victims operating within a police state unable and unwilling to alter their circumstances. Darkmar left knowing the mages would take issue with him and he did so of his own free will. He did not sit on his ass until the humans that actually were willing to love him all along bailed him out. The Forsaken did use the Light before, yes, but they did so knowing it burnt them and with this being a small group (Existing almost entirely in a CDEv comment in fact), whereas the actual main Forsaken religious institution was the Forgotten Shadow, better tailored towards their self-determination and in the RPG especially, tailored around their undeath and the transhumanist aspect that later shows up in a different way in Cataclysm. They did not do so because the Light actually had no adverse effects like it does with the nu-undead and Faol. To show humanity, solidarity and kindness within undeath is only in any way a relevant trait if undeath itself is a relevant trait, as OP points out. If undeath is not relevant, as it isn't for BTS, if they lack initiative, as they do post-BTS, and if the Light, humanity and such like aren't actually in any way separate from them, then this vastly changes the events themselves because they exist in a wholly separate context.

The Forsaken already had an identity separate from Sylvanas, but they also had one complementary to her. Whereas the previous Forsaken could oppose Sylvanas or support Sylvanas based on the factualities of their race and as already stated opposed their leader far more than any prior race, they also aligned with her both for historical reasons and because her experience and their experience were very close and she was in keeping with the baseline identity. By contrast, the nu-undead never militarily oppose Sylvanas and are shown incapable of doing this on their own, reliant on others to make decisions for them despite their relationship with her and the relationship of the pre-BTS Forsaken with her being completely different - one is transactional but positive, the other is entirely abusive and has been for fifteen years, as well as based on false pretext. The will of the Forsaken has no meaning if there is no adversity and if it isn't actually expressed. Sylvanas, a caricature by this point past any repair, has her last comment about the Forsaken be that they're pitiable sadsacks and while the narrative feigns otherwise, she's completely correct. No sooner has she departed, having faced zero Forsaken opposition from anyone except Zelling who's been Forsaken for five minutes and was spurred by Baine but does Voss say that most of them are in ennui and can do nothing to resolve their problems, and neither can Voss help them, despite all her development - she needs an outside party in Calia to fix them. This despite there being no adversity to them, no rejection by anyone, human or cosmic, no limiting effects of undeath, nothing. The titular will of the Forsaken is entirely absent. The antagonist's minions get to actually deal with every aspect thus far mentioned in the new book, relevant as they are to the undead experience, far outstripping the Horde-aligned undead in screen time not just when it comes to their plot function, but in terms of the information on their condition, past and thought process. As to the sloppy seconds, they get to be occupied by Calia off-screen with nary a comment. And why would there be a comment? They've nothing to say because there's nothing there. They're flotsam that has to be there for gameplay reasons. The appendix of races - evolved to the point of uselessness, but most of the time not worth to even get rid of.

[Isenholt]

Interesting post overall, but no, BTS isn't a return to anything. The Classic Forsaken and the BTS Forsaken are inherently different, especially since much of what both you and @Thage say about the Classic Forsaken can be wholly dismissed by just playing the intro, let alone doing quests. A minority is not the majority, outliers are outliers because they do not represent the status quo. They're just the ones that act differently based on the premises provided. The Forsaken intro told you flat out that the Forsaken had no bonds to their allies and were willing to get rid of anyone who got in their way, the site called them harbingers of doom, it takes about three quests before the rogue trainer tells you about the new world order and it's by level 5 that you're testing the new plague on a captive, discounting all the other things you do.

The funniest argument thus far being the one guy who I legit don't recall the username of claiming that it's precisely Calia's lack of any link to the Forsaken that makes her fit to be in them because after all they're different and the Forsaken are different, right? This and your otherwise interesting post hit on the same point that @Aucald runs into hard, namely the idea about how these races aren't homogenous is being used to push a sentiment that pretty much every outcrop and identity are equally valid and expressive of the race, once again in the same way the Highborne Duo on the forums point out an elf using arcane and decide that constitutes a highly essential element of the present night elf identity. The baseline and the status quo are essential - they constitute the core of the race. In the same way that a tauren can choose to be violent towards outsiders this doesn't mean that tauren in general aren't gentle giants and that the Forsaken value free will doesn't mean that every attitude is equally supported or relevant to their identity and that a handful characters suddenly hold just as much weight as the majority.

This is especially the case when, as with your post and as with Aucald, the fact that the Forsaken are shown to be people rather than comically evil 24/7 is used as some kind of gotcha about how actually the BTS Forsaken are entirely on theme because they too are nice, disregarding context and purpose. Someone like Darkmar bailing on the Forsaken in a society that values free will and self-expression are defied and so he acts of his own accord with like minded people, one person honoring their ally's last wish (cheers for reminding me of that quest by the way) while another is scornful are leagues apart from a society of victims operating within a police state unable and unwilling to alter their circumstances. Darkmar left knowing the mages would take issue with him and he did so of his own free will. He did not sit on his ass until the humans that actually were willing to love him all along bailed him out. The Forsaken did use the Light before, yes, but they did so knowing it burnt them and with this being a small group (Existing almost entirely in a CDEv comment in fact), whereas the actual main Forsaken religious institution was the Forgotten Shadow, better tailored towards their self-determination and in the RPG especially, tailored around their undeath and the transhumanist aspect that later shows up in a different way in Cataclysm. They did not do so because the Light actually had no adverse effects like it does with the nu-undead and Faol. To show humanity, solidarity and kindness within undeath is only in any way a relevant trait if undeath itself is a relevant trait, as OP points out. If undeath is not relevant, as it isn't for BTS, if they lack initiative, as they do post-BTS, and if the Light, humanity and such like aren't actually in any way separate from them, then this vastly changes the events themselves because they exist in a wholly separate context.

The Forsaken already had an identity separate from Sylvanas, but they also had one complementary to her. Whereas the previous Forsaken could oppose Sylvanas or support Sylvanas based on the factualities of their race and as already stated opposed their leader far more than any prior race, they also aligned with her both for historical reasons and because her experience and their experience were very close and she was in keeping with the baseline identity. By contrast, the nu-undead never militarily oppose Sylvanas and are shown incapable of doing this on their own, reliant on others to make decisions for them despite their relationship with her and the relationship of the pre-BTS Forsaken with her being completely different - one is transactional but positive, the other is entirely abusive and has been for fifteen years, as well as based on false pretext. The will of the Forsaken has no meaning if there is no adversity and if it isn't actually expressed. Sylvanas, a caricature by this point past any repair, has her last comment about the Forsaken be that they're pitiable sadsacks and while the narrative feigns otherwise, she's completely correct. No sooner has she departed, having faced zero Forsaken opposition from anyone except Zelling who's been Forsaken for five minutes and was spurred by Baine but does Voss say that most of them are in ennui and can do nothing to resolve their problems, and neither can Voss help them, despite all her development - she needs an outside party in Calia to fix them. This despite there being no adversity to them, no rejection by anyone, human or cosmic, no limiting effects of undeath, nothing. The titular will of the Forsaken is entirely absent. The antagonist's minions get to actually deal with every aspect thus far mentioned in the new book, relevant as they are to the undead experience, far outstripping the Horde-aligned undead in screen time not just when it comes to their plot function, but in terms of the information on their condition, past and thought process. As to the sloppy seconds, they get to be occupied by Calia off-screen with nary a comment. And why would there be a comment? They've nothing to say because there's nothing there. They're flotsam that has to be there for gameplay reasons. The appendix of races - evolved to the point of uselessness, but most of the time not worth to even get rid of.

I thought eventually you and I might address one another directly. I don't post much (obviously), but I have the benefit of being a long-time lurker, so I'm quite aware of your stance on this and other topics. Thank you for your thoughtful reply; though I know we see things quite differently I do appreciate the discussion.

I don't believe I claimed that BTS was a return to anything as you put it. I intended to state that BTS brought into the foreground, an aspect of the Forsaken that players like myself have been aware of for many years. The OP claims they were changed, and while I obviously won't refute that there has been a large shift, my point was that this aspect was there all along.

Whatever your interpretation of the data may be, my point is irrefutable. I don't say this to be "right" but to suggest to you that your lengthy response, however well thought out, was a bit of a miss.

You argue that the minority expressions that I latched onto within the Forsaken questing experience are invalid somehow. Do you really think I don't know that what I put forth about the Forsaken is absolutely not the standard for the race? I don't even argue that what I liked should become the status quo for the race! However small, these things do not have to be dismissed, that's the choice you made as a player. I obviously made a different one.

You can boil my post down to three points, and I ask you if you disagree with them or dislike them to just say that rather than trying to erode my meanings. (If this wasn't your intent then I apologize for wrongly interpreting it)

1. The Forsaken humanity that was revealed in BTS—and the OP seemed blindsided by—had a precedent.

2. I, as an individual player, was pulled in by those aspects and I enjoy them but feel badly that it came at the cost of what others hold the Forsaken to be.

3. There should be a way to represent a range of motivations and existential outlooks within a race, without causing such great upset.

That's pretty much it, man. I think perhaps the writing is to blame, that much maybe we can agree on?

[Super Dickmann]

I thought eventually you and I might address one another directly. I don't post much (obviously), but I have the benefit of being a long-time lurker, so I'm quite aware of your stance on this and other topics. Thank you for your thoughtful reply; though I know we see things quite differently I do appreciate the discussion.

I don't believe I claimed that BTS was a return to anything as you put it. I intended to state that BTS brought into the foreground, an aspect of the Forsaken that players like myself have been aware of for many years. The OP claims they were changed, and while I obviously won't refute that there has been a large shift, my point was that this aspect was there all along.

Cheers for the answer. As regards it being a return to anything, that was mostly regarding Thage, who claimed BTS and BFA were a return to Vanilla, which they most definitely are not. I entirely disagree on the notion that this represented something always in the Forsaken writing, mostly because the premises are entirely different. A good deed done in one context is entirely different from one done in the other and to use humanity the Forsaken have expressed elsewhere to argue for this being either baseline or present before doesn't gel.

To be a bit trite, see the Paarthurnax's bit in Skyrim regarding the difference about being good by nature and being good despite being naturally predisposed about something else. Darkmar opposing Sylvanas of his own accord for purely moral reasons despite the conflict with humanity being real and undeath indeed being a downside is leagues away from the fuckwits in BTS failing to oppose Sylvanas, while she's running a police state, despite undeath having no consequences and humanity being a-okay with them given how easily the issue is resolved are very different things.

Your acknowledgment that they were a minority prior does cover what I was getting at, ditto noting that Calia's target demographic comes at the expense of what was the identity before hand. I'd say I'm glad she has at least some pull when it comes to actual Forsaken players, but that'd be a bald-faced lie. As I've said before and and is blindingly obvious, she isn't there to complement, but replace and there's nothing in the new concept I consider in any way either representative of the Forsaken or worthwhile. Not on some kind of personal level, but objectively so given their prior content.

[Isenholt]

Cheers for the answer. As regards it being a return to anything, that was mostly regarding Thage, who claimed BTS and BFA were a return to Vanilla, which they most definitely are not. I entirely disagree on the notion that this represented something always in the Forsaken writing, mostly because the premises are entirely different. A good deed done in one context is entirely different from one done in the other and to use humanity the Forsaken have expressed elsewhere to argue for this being either baseline or present before doesn't gel.

To be a bit trite, see the Paarthurnax's bit in Skyrim regarding the difference about being good by nature and being good despite being naturally predisposed about something else. Darkmar opposing Sylvanas of his own accord for purely moral reasons despite the conflict with humanity being real and undeath indeed being a downside is leagues away from the fuckwits in BTS failing to oppose Sylvanas, while she's running a police state, despite undeath having no consequences and humanity being a-okay with them given how easily the issue is resolved are very different things.

Your acknowledgment that they were a minority prior does cover what I was getting at, ditto noting that Calia's target demographic comes at the expense of what was the identity before hand. I'd say I'm glad she has at least some pull when it comes to actual Forsaken players, but that'd be a bald-faced lie. As I've said before and and is blindingly obvious, she isn't there to complement, but replace and there's nothing in the new concept I consider in any way either representative of the Forsaken or worthwhile. Not on some kind of personal level, but objectively so given their prior content.

I think I had missed some earlier parts of this thread, so thank you for clarifying. I like that you referenced Paarthurnax; the moment you describe is one of my favorite, in which he says: “What is better ? to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort ?”

Funnily enough this line of thinking is what drives my interest in some of the Forsaken who despite their obvious state, manage—by force of will—to become something else.

I do see that your inclusion of that example is a juxtaposition of the BTS Forsaken and a more organic version of the Forsaken humanity we are discussing. I won't argue against that, I do actually agree. The representation of the Forsaken in BTS, no matter how much it may resonate with my personal interpretation and interest, is in disagreement with the longstanding representation of the race (at least their most public facing side).

I'm not so happy to get what might agree with my interpretations if it isn't achieved with care and respect for what was also previously established. I think this is such an important rule for any established world to follow, and there are quite a few franchises that come to mind that have failed to do this recently!

[Super Dickmann]

I think I had missed some earlier parts of this thread, so thank you for clarifying. I like that you referenced Paarthurnax; the moment you describe is one of my favorite, in which he says: “What is better ? to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort ?”

Funnily enough this line of thinking is what drives my interest in some of the Forsaken who despite their obvious state, manage—by force of will—to become something else.

I do see that your inclusion of that example is a juxtaposition of the BTS Forsaken and a more organic version of the Forsaken humanity we are discussing. I won't argue against that, I do actually agree. The representation of the Forsaken in BTS, no matter how much it may resonate with my personal interpretation and interest, is in disagreement with the longstanding representation of the race (at least their most public facing side).

I'm not so happy to get what might agree with my interpretations if it isn't achieved with care and respect for what was also previously established. I think this is such an important rule for any established world to follow, and there are quite a few franchises that come to mind that have failed to do this recently!

What's important to me is adversity - the struggle a person goes through to realize themselves and to follow their goals and values. It's why despite spending most of my time shitting on Anduin over the course of the expansion for being such an obnoxious pestilence counter-productive to the goals of the game I found myself enjoying his segments in the new book. Because now he's being challenged for being good, he feels some degree of cost over this and pressure to perform, he is burdened by something that's past him. So when he does good anyway, now it has weight and meaning and I can root for him. That's also what drew me to the Forsaken - some people like the Forsaken because of the traumatic backstory and the adversity they encountered in Vanilla, but for me it's not so much that but overcoming of it to both reclaim and recontextualize their identity and that isn't necessarily a good thing.

The Cataclysm Forsaken, who've more or less accepted Lordaeronian nationalism and have even turned somewhat positive to undeath, deciding to give existing in this world a shot are better adjusted - they're not sadsacks moping in ruins, and they have principles regarding undead free will, self-actualization, belief in their state and leader, and a surprising amount of self-sacrificing heroism if you go through their quests. But they're also terrible for their neighbours and enemies and sketchy to their allies because of this. The kind of mind that would consider the issues of undeath worth paying for its benefits has reduced the value of what those things were, and that includes the value of life itself. It's why so many of the Forsaken stories do center on pushback by the undead towards the state as compared to other races - because they are inclined towards negative emotions and negative outbursts. In that sense, the BTS undead as objects of supreme ennui who do in fact want to choose to die would be fairly fitting, provided that the entire context they existed in weren't removed. But it's that adversity that makes those of their characters that are heroic or when one of them who usually isn't acts conventionally heroic cool.