How do you control a Toxic Community like World of Warcraft or most other MMOs have?

[T-34]

Remind me again which steps Blizzard takes to reduce toxicity?

Ehh? I wrote that there is no "toxicity-problem" in WoW. Then why should Blizzard take any steps to reduce it?
I wrote that the the player that are toxic in WoW only inflict pain on themselves.

[Dellis0991]

Ive got one in my guild now. We've talked to him on multiple occasions about his toxic attitude. Sad part is he is a good player but we have lost people because of him. I dont like kicking people but its getting close to the point of having no other choice.

Kick that dude, I seen guys like him bring guilds down.

[Doffen]

Can't think of anything but "just don't be an A-hole and this won't be a toxic place"

Yeah, it's funny because those who yells "toxic!" are the ones whos most toxic. Proven by this forum too. I see someone in this very thread that say WoW is so toxic, yet that person is one of the most toxic people on this forums.

Its amazing to see.

[Protean]

Ehh? I wrote that there is no "toxicity-problem" in WoW. Then why should Blizzard take any steps to reduce it?
I wrote that the the player that are toxic in WoW only inflict pain on themselves.

If it's designed around the good players, it must have something aimed against the bad players, in this case toxic players.

[tikcol]

I find that the people that throw the word toxicity around when called out for their poor performance in a group setting or competetive environment are actually the ones being toxic.

You can be bad but if someone calls you out for it, don't give the excuse that "im just playing for fun bro".


Playing for fun isn't an excuse for ruining my experience. You're making sure the other people in the group aren't having fun.

[Echocho]

Ive got one in my guild now. We've talked to him on multiple occasions about his toxic attitude. Sad part is he is a good player but we have lost people because of him. I dont like kicking people but its getting close to the point of having no other choice.

Toxic people often are very good at the game, it's why they believe that they have the right to do and say whatever they want.

[TheTaurenChieftain]

First: technically it's problem being solved of community itself, BUT! organization of system in which community can influence process is already dev's task.
Second: lets assuming at moment, that competitive spirit itself, even if it provokes toxicity, is conditionally as just moral crime, which, if it goes beyond permissible local morality, community can cut down/reduce intensity/moderate - then it turns out that its uncontrolled growth/spread isn't so much root cause, but just characteristic feature, well, or even indicator of situation out of control, disease of local society; fundamentally targeted/provocative system aggravates situation, but isn't directly its source.
And third: WoW community doesn't have any opportunities provided by system for implementation of above, at the same time, just like in any social group (and I already mean this in broad word's sense, in sense of general concept of socialization of both people and other our planet's residents) we aren't talking about forceful solution to issue, but passively restricting access to why people, in essence, have always played "socially oriented games" - to get social activity even if just virtual, and for this latter one should have weight within framework of gameplay, but simply there is nothing like that here... The end.

We've talked about it a lot of times already, and it all comes down to the same worn-out record. I understand that devs are afraid to give such control to players, since more motivated and organized part of community is inclined, according to all mathematical models, to take over situation and subordinate situation/rest of it to itself "to impose morality/influence" - it was and will be so, but therefore we're talking only about mechanisms of passive influence. Within this framework "life will break through, find its way"... but devs don't believe in it

Alternative is permissiveness, uncontrollability, complete own independence and hence growth/spread of toxicity. History has proven this many times. If you don't need society, then society doesn't need you either. It doesn't care who you are, where you are and why you are, which means, with such attitude, that any joint interaction is perceived as "personal mutual insult" ≈ toxicity. Of course this doesn't happen immediately, but over time this becomes prevailing trend (= norm), "new morality".
- - -
since anger accumulates over time, then for devs... as well as corrupted governments, it's very convenient for this (protect itself morally, stay away or even pretend "good uncle", one who gives and helps, always ready and guarding) to have split in society, internal (or even external) conflict of like national/political/racial type through which its surplus is released, for example, for game it may be conflict of old and new design *pointing at Q&A direction* thus society devours itself, which means it remains exhausted/indifferent to direct problem

ps. Not going to attach links, tired of this already.

I always had the opinion that WoW would greatly improve if they integrated a system which allows people to generate their own content. There are many games which still can sustain themselves even if they don't get updated anymore because the devs give the users tools to create their own content.

"Housing" is a topic which is not discussed in the WoW community anymore. But back in Classic and TBC housing was always a huge topic. And I mean "real" housing (not Garrison for example) where you can create your own house. This would for example be a new feature which many people would embrace and propably bring back a lot of players. In my opinion WildStar had one of the best housing systems ever created in an MMO. And even when no one played the game anymore there was still an active community creating and sharing their own housing plots.

As long as there are options for players to generate their own content, there are a lot of options for a community to improve and grow.

Give players more creative tools, give players the ability to maybe design their own "challenges", where they can give away a gold price if someone beats them. Super Mario Maker has a very active community where people play levels designed by different creators and players.

Give people options to create things on their own and express themselves individually and create challenges for others. At the moment we all are playing content that Blizz created for us.

I know it would be hard to implement these kind of things. But I am honestly pretty sure that the game will improve greatly if you give players who like to be creative the ability to be creative and create something for other players. And not only focus on competitive content. But I think because Ion for example was a competitive WoW player himself he propably doesn't understand the perspective and opinions of non-achiever players.

[Alkizon]

- snip -

Don't know how would it be easier to explain... this is more related to popularity of content, but, within framework of even current paradigm, progress somewhat breaks your wild flight of fantasy. Technical implementation is very important in this case, I didn't play WS, but purely for stylistic reasons, I immediately rejected it (same with current WoW), therefore I can't say something specific about benefits of "housing", but I see it as usual individual cosmetic, pleasant, but not necessary... I can't say anything here.

On the other hand, the very process of creating something can serve as kind of sublimation, but individually, it can't solve such problem in broad sense.

imo direction/idea is interesting, but not very useful within theme
*looking sideways with smirk at original Dota All Stars* I doubt that devs're much motivated to this

[Saltysquidoon]

That's fine though. If people are shitting on a discord somewhere oozing with toxicity and I never have to experience it in game then okay, ignorance is blizz I suppose.
What I've found though is that people are actually friendly and helpful, especially to new and/or uneducated people. It's not uncommon for a dungeon run to hold for a while as the group help the newcomer understand the encounter or even their class.

Frankly, I don't know where this FFXIV is a rainbow coalition of flower children meme is coming from. I've levelled multiple jobs and I can distinctly remember for my red mage specifically the only words ever typed in chat in a 5 man the entire time was a healer saying "you can pull faster" once.

This is the point with mmo's really. There is so little need to pay attention to 99% of content people are generally chatting in discord or watching youtube/netflix while they play. The only reason people find text chat 'toxic' is because 99% of the time if someones typing in a PUG chat somthing has gone badly wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

I always had the opinion that WoW would greatly improve if they integrated a system which allows people to generate their own content. There are many games which still can sustain themselves even if they don't get updated anymore because the devs give the users tools to create their own content.

Wow's a theme park, you want the sandbox. Wow's the most popular MMO ever because it's a theme park, most people who play wow don't want or care about a sandbox. You do and that's great, but WoW is never going to be where you get that experience you're thinking of Minecraft.

Just beyond that whether WoW is a themepark or a sandbox has no impact on toxicity, like at all. You can be toxic in minecraft.

[Kaver]

That is incorrect. Not until Name changes and server transfer did you see how toxic people were. Early on there were always one or two and you knew who they were. Forget about pugging and there was no LFG so reputations mattered.

But classic is extremely toxic right now. So those thing don’t necessarily works in the modern world.

[BellaH41]

Just don't care about it and think about my life and my family

[Azerate]

You punish. You don't cave in to whining. That literally is it.

FF14 is a great example of this. No matter the crying, toxic players are punished without mercy by GMs, or whatever they are called there. It's not that you cannot do anything to fix the toxicity. It's that Blizzard doesn't really care to do that in WoW. Remember that Blizzcon 1 or 2 years ago? Some dude asked the exact question and Ion was just like "ummm dunno we'll look into that later".

[Azerate]

So they should ban everyone using a combat logging addon? Or anyone talking about performance in a party/raid-chat?
Sounds like an idea investors would love to see implemented into the game.

Combat logging addons are not bannable in FF14. Bullying other people because of their performance is, as it should be.

Investors will be happy when more people are playing the game. If you want more people playing the game, you should get rid of toxic assholes who spoil the fun for others.

[Necromantic]

Toxic people often are very good at the game, it's why they believe that they have the right to do and say whatever they want.

Toxic people often believe they are good at the game. They believe that putting on one of those paper crowns from Burger King makes you an actual king.

[Nobleshield]

There are generally two extremes of toxic:

1) The "elitist". This is the person that clears mythic months in and does high M+ and thinks that makes them a tough guy. The sort of person that calls someone out for DPS when their DPS is fine but not what Simcraft says it should be so they must suck. This is IMHO the worst extreme because they feel things should cater to them. Everything needs to have ultra high competitive aspects so they can feel important.

2) The "scrub". This is the sort of person that does whatever they want, with no care, and wants to be carried by saying how it's just a game. The type that applies to a high end M+ with no experience and calls everyone an elitist for not taking them.

Both are extremes but that's where the majority of toxicity comes from. The wannabe cool kids and the people that think anyone should be part of the cool kids.

IMHO the first is way worse because competitive play is toxic by it's very nature since it fosters this extreme "110% or GTFO" mindset for everything. As well as gives the outlet for the second group to feel like they are lepers so makes them want to lash out in frustration. The WoW community for years now, even after it was shown to be completely false, thinks that having things extra difficult makes people want to try harder to overcome it rather that get frustrated and give up. Most people in the game have no desire for very hard content so they can show off. It's just the minority that can do it that want it so they can keep feeling superior to the unwashed masses.

[Echocho]

There are generally two extremes of toxic:

1) The "elitist". This is the person that clears mythic months in and does high M+ and thinks that makes them a tough guy. The sort of person that calls someone out for DPS when their DPS is fine but not what Simcraft says it should be so they must suck. This is IMHO the worst extreme because they feel things should cater to them. Everything needs to have ultra high competitive aspects so they can feel important.

2) The "scrub". This is the sort of person that does whatever they want, with no care, and wants to be carried by saying how it's just a game. The type that applies to a high end M+ with no experience and calls everyone an elitist for not taking them.

Both are extremes but that's where the majority of toxicity comes from. The wannabe cool kids and the people that think anyone should be part of the cool kids.

IMHO the first is way worse because competitive play is toxic by it's very nature since it fosters this extreme "110% or GTFO" mindset for everything. As well as gives the outlet for the second group to feel like they are lepers so makes them want to lash out in frustration. The WoW community for years now, even after it was shown to be completely false, thinks that having things extra difficult makes people want to try harder to overcome it rather that get frustrated and give up. Most people in the game have no desire for very hard content so they can show off. It's just the minority that can do it that want it so they can keep feeling superior to the unwashed masses.

The problem with the first group is that they believe that everyone who's underperforming belong in the second group. Just because you're bad doesn't mean that you're toxic. Maybe you're new to the game and/or the content or maybe you're just bad and trying your absolute best doesn't live up to the high standards of the elitist.

It's only when you're being bad on purpose that you're trolling and being toxic.

[Nobleshield]

The problem with the first group is that they believe that everyone who's underperforming belong in the second group. Just because you're bad doesn't mean that you're toxic. Maybe you're new to the game and/or the content or maybe you're just bad and trying your absolute best doesn't live up to the high standards of the elitist.

It's only when you're being bad on purpose that you're trolling and being toxic.

Right, and I've never in 11 years met anyone who was legit being bad on purpose. But yeah, it's a big reason why I think the game doesn't need such an emphasis on multiple levels of difficulty to appease that top echelon that want to feel superior. I actually wonder how the game might be if they didn't do that, and just built stuff for normal/average players. If you ask the first group of course it would "kill the game" because everyone plays for a challenge (but do they really?) but I'm not so sure and that just sounds like resentment that the "scrubs" can do things instead of being only the superior groups of players that get to do it. You'd have less meta/theorycrafting that's for sure but I don't think that would actually be a bad thing.

[rrayy]

I find that the people that throw the word toxicity around when called out for their poor performance in a group setting or competetive environment are actually the ones being toxic.

You can be bad but if someone calls you out for it, don't give the excuse that "im just playing for fun bro".


Playing for fun isn't an excuse for ruining my experience. You're making sure the other people in the group aren't having fun.

Actually, this post shows you are toxic as well. You are basically saying your fun is the only fun that matters.The irony is thick here.

[Necromantic]

First of all, toxic people are defined as those who launch personal attacks / gossip about others.

The problem is a failure to moderate. Time and again, we have seen moderators on forums and in chats stunningly refuse to ban people for personal attacks and gossip. Instead they issue bans for idiotic things like advertising their youtube channel, or for spamming a little bit, or for being a bit crude. These are NOT reasons to ban. Gossip / personal attacks are the reason to ban.

When a community fails to remove the toxic people, the community gets destroyed and turns into a hellish mess of people flinging poo at each other nonstop.

There's a lot of forums / chats that effectively have ZERO moderation, with mods banning people for ALL the wrong reasons. Next thing you know, they throw up their hands and shut down the chat or forum because the mods and owners are absolutely clueless.

As someone who has over 20 years of forum moderation experience, it's a slippery slope. Each forum I've participated in (or moderated) have different criteria on how it works.

Here, moderators are selected from applicants of general users of the forums. The pros are that those who moderate are at least somewhat knowledgeable about the conversations and even engage in them. The cons are that infractions are often cherry picked.

In the FFXIV forums, the moderators are an outside company with no stake in the organization. The pro is that the moderation is unbias. The cons are that the moderation has a reputation of being entirely too strict at times. In addition, for a very long time, there was no way to appeal an infraction.

On the CGI, moderators are selected from experienced, veteran players with a history of composure. The pro is that you know you have good, level headed and competent moderators. The con is that with criteria that tight, it makes it difficult to find replacements when necessary.

In the WoW official forums, the moderator jobs are entry level, minimum wage positions. You do not even need a high school diploma or experience/knowledge of the games or organization to get hired as one. The pro are that it keeps company costs down significantly. The cons are that good moderation requires a degree of competency that just isn't there. Good moderators know what real trolling is. Bad moderators do not and will often infract someone for trolling when their comments do not even remotely fit the criteria. In addition, their rules are worded strategically and vague to the point where they can make mistakes, hide the mistake behind a vague clause and you cannot talk about it.

On Reddit, many good subs choose moderators from a list of applicants and their Reddit history is usually reviewed to see how they act. Many bad subs just pick from their buddies. The pro is that some subs, you'll get great moderators. The con is that some subs, you'll get horrible moderators.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

While you might be correct, you met some of those people even before LFR and LFD existed, because even if you had a guild, you often had 1-2 slots to fill for a dungeon or whatever. However, once somebody stepped massively out of line, you just let your friends and guildies know and after a while that dude simply did not find groups as easy anymore as before, because even with name change and server transfer, server reputation mattered somewhat.

The combination of anonymity and "replacability" however completely destroyed it.

those palyers got called out and mass ignored via /2 channel and never get invited into raids ever again even with a name change you still had those ppl on ignore with the new name and you could put a note on them
its the x realm pro casual stuff and LFR that made this game 3x more toxic than pre catac alot of the bad toxic players with green logs pro lfr "give me all i pay 13 euros" started to demand more and more and the game has become the mess we have now