Built in Raider IO, plz Blizz.

[Necromantic]

Its not made up at all, the fact that there are bad players with high ilvl is very real and you stumble across them plenty in pugs.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want. According to the constitution, you have that right.

As I explained: A higher item level allows brute forcing. Brute forcing = clearing content with little skill just because you out gear it. Obviously some mechanical awareness is involved but I don’t know anyone without GTFO and DBM.

A 480 with GTFO and DBM and zero r.io but an average level of awareness about his class can do up to +15 with an average group of same level people. Not sure why some people choose to deny that. It’s average content for the average player that simply plays with semi-competitive intent or no competitive intent.

You're not wrong. At a certain point, you can "brute force" your way through. As Vengeance spec, I've went into lower keys and solo'd bosses when my buddies groups were new and wiped.

[goldlock]

When i say high (caps could have been avoided granted) I mean people that have cleared at least 10/12 in mythic. Not top 100 world mythic guilds (although i'm sure a few in there would struggle in keys too).

I mean I hear what your saying I just think your lying and don't believe a word of it.

It has forever been the whining of terrible players who consistently get filtered that the system filtering them is wrong but I simply don't believe a mythic raider who likely already has all 15 completed sunk your group.

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As I explained: A higher item level allows brute forcing. Brute forcing = clearing content with little skill just because you out gear it. Obviously some mechanical awareness is involved but I don’t know anyone without GTFO and DBM.

A 480 with GTFO and DBM and zero r.io but an average level of awareness about his class can do up to +15 with an average group of same level people. Not sure why some people choose to deny that. It’s average content for the average player that simply plays with semi-competitive intent or no competitive intent.

Can do isn't will do...

Raider io filters people who do warfronts excessively.

[Tortuga234]

While this is more than obviously made up, you are kind of right that ilvl holds little value. It's not useless but not as useful as it used to be.

No, my +16 shrine run with a PvP geared Warrior tank and Druid Healer is not made up, I wish it was. I still have the shivers =(

[Azharok]

I mean I hear what your saying I just think your lying and don't believe a word of it.

It has forever been the whining of terrible players who consistently get filtered that the system filtering them is wrong but I simply don't believe a mythic raider who likely already has all 15 completed sunk your group.

I've never said anything about a 15. He sunk an easy 20. Still easy for the 100k other people with a higher io than me. But it was pretty rough for that dude.
Also for having participated in a "Mythic raiding" guild, I can assure you that a few of them couldn't time a 15 if they didn't get a carry.

[Tortuga234]

And the reason for your aggressive tone? I mean ok you are anxious to show us something here but tone it down a notch ye?

Do not project, although it is your right to do so ofc. There's no point for me in being aggressive towards random letters on my screen.

[Necromantic]

So are you, but Im getting more convinced that you're just out to troll and boost your post-count with your lack of arguments in your posthistory.

Im a happy Swede btw.

Oh here we go. The old "I don't agree with you, so you're trolling" comment.

I thought people stopped doing that like 10 years ago.

[Necromantic]

What do you expect people to respond when you claim they are lying about their presented experiences?

Just because you dont like/agree with it doesnt make it less true.

I don't expect anything. But falling back to the old "you're trolling" response is just sad and very out-dated.

News flash, people lie. Some are much easier to spot than others. And liking or agreeing do not have to have anything to do with it. I get it, you can say it's true if it fits your narrative. That's on you.

[LanToaster]

So applying for said group was not my decision OK. Oh and when I signed up I was stupid and didn't check who I am signing up for.

No, its not your Choice. You are required to sign up to every group and every keyholder there is. You dont have a Choice in that matter, and if you dont do that, you will not go into any dungeon ever.

[Azharok]

I'd say the peak of elitism is around the M15 mark .

[Karlz0rz]

Not true.

You are YEARS behind with that info. Blizzard records every run you complete, you can do a +2 a minute before reset and it will show up on raider.io

Granted I haven't played for maybe half a year, but there were definitely times where I improved a personal dungeon run, without getting any score for it.
And to my understanding it was because of the run not being recorded on the API.

Or is this something they changed very recently?

[LanToaster]

I assume you want to do a key. An essential part to do so is to sign up. You can always act like: ye I didn't sign up so it was my decision - but that outcome is that you don't do a key. So that's completely pointless because you wanna do a key.

So as long as you are doing a key, it was the keyholders decision. The keyholder is in power at all times. Thinking you having "power" by not signing up is a nice trap you fell into.

Its not about Power. Its about Choice.
As GroupLeader, you have the Choice to pick the players you want to play with. Depending on various factors.
As GroupMember, you have the Choice to pick the players you want to play with. Depending on various factors.

But, to go into your power play:
The Keyholder cannot "Decide" for any player to apply to his group. So, the first person who has any kind of "Power", is the person to apply to a group, if no one applies to your group, for whatever reasons, you hold no Power.

The same analogy you use: "If you dont Decide to apply for a group you dont do a key" is the same: "If you dont Decide to accept people into your group, you dont do a key".

There are (almost) always other Groups in the Tool I can Queue up. If I dont like a particular Group, or a Particular group declines me, I can choose a different one.
The same goes for GroupLeaders, if they dont like Particular Applicants, or a Particular player decides not to apply, he can always choose a different one.

So a person who has a +2 key should be limited in whom he can invite to his key?
And then who should decide what is a reasonable demand or what is unreasonable?
I mean if he fills up his key then those that applied for it must have found the demands reasonable, or what?
Or am I misunderstanding you?

This is an Interesting question, per default a player should not be forced to play with anyone.

But on the other hand, a player should be encouraged to have reasonable Expactations for his group mates.

E.g.:
I dont see it as a problem if a 480 Geared Player expects his groupmates to be at the same Level.
But I think its bad habit, and unreasonable if someone with 430 expects his groupmates to be 480.

Sadly, I dont have any ideas how one could combat this.

Self-righteousness doesn't even need to apply when you can tell someone is clearly lying. Some of us were not born yesterday.

To be Fair, while I dont look for RaidProgress in 5man Content so I dunno how many I had who failed there, i can see that not every Mythic Raider is up to Par, especialy many of those who PuG around. Thats why I stay clear of raids where someone states: "X/12 mythic Raidlead". Those in almost all of my Experiences suck.

As I explained: A higher item level allows brute forcing. Brute forcing = clearing content with little skill just because you out gear it. Obviously some mechanical awareness is involved but I don’t know anyone without GTFO and DBM.

A 480 with GTFO and DBM and zero r.io but an average level of awareness about his class can do up to +15 with an average group of same level people. Not sure why some people choose to deny that. It’s average content for the average player that simply plays with semi-competitive intent or no competitive intent.

Sadly the first part is not true at this point. While having a High Ilvl enables you the possibility to outdamage many mechanics. There are sadly more than enough players who just dont tap into that possibility.
Apart from that, you are right. A Player who has just a little bit skill in handling his Character and knows how to handle the basic mechanics like dont stand in the fire, will probably not have much issues in an Average difficulty.

I play very specifically with target loot in mind and if I don’t find the key I’m looking for I don’t play. Obviously all the actions I described require the exercise of choice. Not sure what you are trying to prove.

Sorry, I thought it was Obvious that it was Sarcasm. Because of the guy who claimed the only one with a Choice is the Keyholder.

I mean, if you want real Power, play a tank/heal, get invited to a run, start run, and then you have real Power over the key.

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Granted I haven't played for maybe half a year, but there were definitely times where I improved a personal dungeon run, without getting any score for it.
And to my understanding it was because of the run not being recorded on the API.

Or is this something they changed very recently?

Dunno about that, but I usually run Mondays, and all my runs are recorded since at least last season.

[ClassicPeon]

It is 100% raider IO's fault for creating a high score game / meta out of that data.

Without raider IO a less informative system would take its place.

Arent you just angry that you cant fake your way into +15 keys by typing to people?

[Biowned]

As someone that doesn't have a lot of time to play anymore, I hate getting inexperienced players on my parties when I want to push. Raider.io is a life saver to increase your odds of building a nice party and not losing your time.

As many have mentioned it's information that's already public turned into a number for better understanding. If raider.io goes, another comes.

It's true that for some stuff people are looking for overqualified players and it may be frustrating if you keep getting declined, but that would happen anyway.

[DonChalk]

Without raider IO a less informative system would take its place.

Arent you just angry that you cant fake your way into +15 keys by typing to people?

I can clear 15's just fine, so no, I'm not mad? Less information would be a good thing. All we need to know is "Has this player completed this key with a +1,2 or 3 chest?" adding numerical values to it just overly complicates thing and adds to a "Number go up! so clearly superior!" When the actual real impact is minuscule.

[Relapses]

If Blizzard puts Raider.IO into the game...I'll quit. I know that doesn't mean much to anyone else, but I've been subbed since Vanilla release.

See ya later dude. It's already in the game since R.IO uses the Armory's API.

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I can clear 15's just fine, so no, I'm not mad? Less information would be a good thing. All we need to know is "Has this player completed this key with a +1,2 or 3 chest?" adding numerical values to it just overly complicates thing and adds to a "Number go up! so clearly superior!" When the actual real impact is minuscule.

How does assigning a numerical value to something that you'd find on the Armory anyway in any way, shape or form equate into "less information"? You're campaigning to turn what is now a one-step process into a two- or three-step process for the smug satisfaction of, what, the elimination of a fucking number? The problem isn't R.IO, it's community perception; removing R.IO does nothing to impact the latter problem (and, if anything, would probably make it worse).

[Necromantic]

The addon just exacerbates the problems we have.

[ClassicPeon]

I can clear 15's just fine, so no, I'm not mad? Less information would be a good thing. All we need to know is "Has this player completed this key with a +1,2 or 3 chest?" adding numerical values to it just overly complicates thing and adds to a "Number go up! so clearly superior!" When the actual real impact is minuscule.

A higher number does mean more experience in higher level keys. Thats how the system works. Its an experience checker.

If you dont couple the number with the other information available from raider.io thats your problem. Both together gives a very decent indication of experience level.

The more information the better.

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The addon just exacerbates the problems we have.

What problems would that be?

[Necromantic]

What problems would that be?

Not to be a wise ass but pick one. I'm referring to all the problems that have been explained in every single IO thread which some people like to pretend do not exist.

I use it and only do because with how things are now, I'd have hit a wall and stopped playing until the next content patch or expansion.

To the other guy's point, the more information, the worse. At least in the case where you're giving people who are bad at reading metrics... more metrics. The more you give them, the wider array of ammo they will get to choose from in order to be "one of those guys." The armory exacerbated this when it came out. Back then, people just joined PUGs and had fun. Nobody went into a site and invented a reason to exclude someone, even if that reason is based upon conjecture. On the forums, you had to respond to someone, not launch ad hominem their way.

[Necromantic]

For me personally, it's those people who only choose those who grossly outgear a key. While it's their right (within the current system), it still does not mean they're not one of "those people". You know how you can legally stand on a sidewalk in front of someone's house and video record their kids playing in the lawn? Or how you can walk around in public areas covered in assault rifles? Perfectly legal to do and you have the right to do it. But you know exactly why you're doing just that.

I liked the CM mode ways of Mists. The bar was set to realistic levels for average players. It was too easy and wasn't to a point where many would go "yeah, will never happen for me".

[Twdft]

Granted I haven't played for maybe half a year, but there were definitely times where I improved a personal dungeon run, without getting any score for it.
And to my understanding it was because of the run not being recorded on the API.

Or is this something they changed very recently?

As I said, it's been years. The problem was solved back in Legion. You missed how Blizzard first increased leaderboard to 500 per realm, then recorded every run you did to make it available via API for websites like raider.io

Their armory is sometimes wonky. For example when working on keystone master my group sometimes did the same dungeon same level twice in a row if we had two keys for it. Armory would only record one of those runs. But generally everything is recorded now.