How do you control a Toxic Community like World of Warcraft or most other MMOs have?

[chaoticcrono]

the people who want to control players are the ones that are toxic...

[baskev]

Wow has been toxic for a long time, but it wasnt always like this. I believe that when Name changes and Server transfers began, it gave players the ability to escape their reputation. Is there a way to encourage less toxic behavior or punish toxic players?

Just curious what people think.

Nope, its 2020.

You do not want to know how many times i have to defend my self because they take a piece of text out of context. Or fill in the blanks ( that are not there) with stupid stuff. Pretty sure 8 out of 10 commenters are there to pick a fight with you because they see their influencer do it to people.

So i think it can not be fixxed. Because its not just a gaming thing. Its rl thing. There is no context, facts, empathy. No punhisment for bad behavior.
Look at twitch and youtube. People like keemstar, h3h3h, alinity, jake paul, hell even doc dis . they do stupid stuff, insult people, brake the law, say crazy stuff and then get away with it.


Do i think online was always this bad. Nope 10 years ago it was better. i think the modern day kids who grew up with said influencesr ( or the likes of them) have become more rude.
And back then the video's where more sane. So the comments where less extreme because the content is less extreme.

For me personally i am trying to stay out of forums etc as much as i can. Hell have not been on here for months. Working my ass of in healthcare . Getting enough idiots in real life. So tired of idiots.
Covid is a lie....tell that to the people i have seen die because of it....sigh.....so tired of this world sometimes.
But 4 months left to 2020...lets hope 2021 is better. And lets give us all a early present in november. And kick that orange out of office!!! vote vote vote!!!!

[Thoriangun]

And if you use it in any way to complain about another player you will get banned.

You are correct yes, but just means the playerbase will harbour toxicity within and passive aggressiveness cos of its TOS.

Just cos its not physically said in chat doesn't mean its not there.

[Echocho]

You are correct yes, but just means the playerbase will harbour toxicity within and passive aggressiveness cos of its TOS.

Just cos its not physically said in chat doesn't mean its not there.

If it can't be seen it's really the same as not existing for us normal and level headed folks.

[Nobleshield]

You are correct yes, but just means the playerbase will harbour toxicity within and passive aggressiveness cos of its TOS.

Just cos its not physically said in chat doesn't mean its not there.

No but it needs to be kept out of chat. That's not perfect but a good solution.

[Thoriangun]

If it can't be seen it's really the same as not existing for us normal and level headed folks.

I don't consider ignorance level headed if I'm honest, if you don't notice it or are ignorant of it, fine, does that mean toxicity is void in FF14, nope, its there for sure, it should be duly noted that dps meters and end game is not the only form of toxicity.

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No but it needs to be kept out of chat. That's not perfect but a good solution.

You realise anything not said or interacted between any humans is true for this right?

Toxicity will just find another form to take if its not blatant, which I do see in FF14 a lot actually.

[Echocho]

I don't consider ignorance level headed if I'm honest, if you don't notice it or are ignorant of it, fine, does that mean toxicity is void in FF14, nope, its there for sure, it should be duly noted that dps meters and end game is not the only form of toxicity.

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You realise anything not said or interacted between any humans is true for this right?

Toxicity will just find another form to take if its not blatant, which I do see in FF14 a lot actually.

It's impossible to notice something you can't see. If a guy is sitting behind his computer fuming with anger but not allowed to take it out on his group how could I possibly know? If you can notice it you can report it and he will be banned as a consequence. It's a perfect system really, kinda like shadow bans.

[Thoriangun]

It's impossible to notice something you can't see. If a guy is sitting behind his computer fuming with anger but not allowed to take it out on his group how could I possibly know? If you can notice it you can report it and he will be banned as a consequence. It's a perfect system really, kinda like shadow bans.

You are strongly under the impression said person in such scenario will remain 100% silent and will not respond in some way, I don't see and have not seen someone remain silent.

Remember toxicity comes from all sides, including your own actions or others that could instigate something to press another to cause them to feel angry, FF14 has a lot more of this brimming scenarios compared to other mmos because of the current TOS.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Right, and I've never in 11 years met anyone who was legit being bad on purpose.

are you sure about it? you never saw that hunter that said i like pets i dont play lone wolf even to i lose 20% dps? you never saw that Hunter whos palying SV instand of BM and griefs your raid? or the mage that plays Arcane insatd od fire and do 50% les dps? is this not being bad on purpose? knowing that you can play a spec of your class and ad 50k to your raids overall dps? image everyone would do the same and your 2M raid dps shrinks to 1.2M and you get extra phases on bosses and you make every boss twice as hard by being ignorant/bad on purpose or dont read a guide for bosses that being testet 2-3 months in advance on the PTR/Beta or read a class guilde so you know that mastery is a no no for balance druids and you know what to press and dont only do 30% of your class dps

All of this mentioned above is "being bad on purpose"

[Echocho]

are you sure about it? you never saw that hunter that said i like pets i dont play lone wolf even to i lose 20% dps? you never saw that Hunter whos palying SV instand of BM and griefs your raid? or the mage that plays Arcane insatd od fire and do 50% les dps? is this not being bad on purpose? knowing that you can play a spec of your class and ad 50k to your raids overall dps? image everyone would do the same and your 2M raid dps shrinks to 1.2M and you get extra phases on bosses and you make every boss twice as hard by being ignorant/bad on purpose or dont read a guide for bosses that being testet 2-3 months in advance on the PTR/Beta or read a class guilde so you know that mastery is a no no for balance druids and you know what to press and dont only do 30% of your class dps

All of this mentioned above is "being bad on purpose"

Playing your chosen spec and talent setup to the best of your ability does not equal being bad on purpose. Not playing to the best of your ability on the other hand is being bad on purpose, even if you minmax fotm.

[arkanon]

All of this mentioned above is "being bad on purpose"

No, its not - i would argue these are all examples of players playing the game the way they enjoy. Their performance might be "bad" by YOUR standards, but if they are enjoying their play time, and clearing content, thats fine. You are confusing playing sub optimally because they prefer the playstyle, with "being bad on purpose". You see the problem with your (extremely) flawed logic, is that apparently, every time you press the wrong key, or take even 1hp of avoidable damage, you are "being bad on purpose" which is an absolutely idiotic thing to say.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Playing your chosen spec and talent setup to the best of your ability does not equal being bad on purpose. Not playing to the best of your ability on the other hand is being bad on purpose, even if you minmax fotm.

the moment you know that if i dont pick talent A you will do 20% less dps and say to yourself "i know this talent makes me lose 20% dps but fuck it i dont care" is being bad on purpose like how is it not?

[Echocho]

the moment you know that if i dont pick talent A you will do 20% less dps and say to yourself "i know this talent makes me lose 20% dps but fuck it i dont care" is being bad on purpose like how is it not?

There are no such talents in the game from what I've seen. The tooltips don't state how much DPS you lose or gain. In most cases it's even difficult to look at two talents and know which is the best.

[blankfaced]

We're in a time where toxicity is openly encouraged. Especially by the internet. How can Blizzard change human behavior? Is it really their duty to?

[Pony Soldier]

You can't control it. Best thing to do is to put people on ignore and move on with your day.

[Necromantic]

There are no such talents in the game from what I've seen. The tooltips don't state how much DPS you lose or gain. In most cases it's even difficult to look at two talents and know which is the best.

Correct. Some sites will tell you that some will overall be a certain % stronger but none are near 20%.

[crakerjack]

And then the players will abuse the system even more and become more toxic. It's like you haven't even played wow before. The already ridiculously high bars set for entry will increase. Then if there's any wipes at all then there will be increased abuse within groups. Do I ruin my rio or do I not get loot? People will be more toxic to each other if there are perceived mistakes and they will do everything they can to get them to leave. Some people will just stop playing and wait out the timer. Others will attack others. This will not be isolated incidents. This will be common.

The only solution is the banhammer. Use it often, use it for any infraction, and strip people of their loot and status.

Why would people be more toxic? Players get rewarded for not leaving, so you can imagine people would be nicer or bite their tongue. I'll admit people will be less willing to pug out of fear of joining a bad group, but I know one thing, negative reinforcement is going in the wrong direction. The only way negative reinforcement works is if it's applied 100% of the time and consistent. The issue is, it never will be. It's like punishing kids. Kids that receive negative reinforcement don't learn from their wrongs, they learn how to not get caught and lie. It becomes more about avoiding the consequences and working around them rather than learning how to overcome their bad behavior.

If players are given extra incentives to act kind and be nice, they'll do so. People like to get a pat and recognition for playing by the rules and working hard. Players slowly realize that bad/toxic behavior isn't rewarded, but good/happy, stick it out behavior is. Not saying this would remove toxic players from the game, there will always be people like that, but you'd see more results with positive reinforcement than you would with negative reinforcement.

[munkeyinorbit]

the moment you know that if i dont pick talent A you will do 20% less dps and say to yourself "i know this talent makes me lose 20% dps but fuck it i dont care" is being bad on purpose like how is it not?

It's not being bad on purpose in the same way that following a guide and picking the "right" talents isn't toxic. You actually have to play bad on purpose to play bad on purpose just like you have to be toxic to people not chosing the right talents to be toxic. Different gameplay styles is a thing. What if there's a talent that adds complexity to a rotation but the player can't perform it efficiently? What if the shit talent is passive and is easier to play? What if it adds survivability and stops a player from dying?

This is just another example of people acting toxic to others because they don't play the game the way some guide has told them. I bet you don't even sim and just blindly follow whatever guide you have been told is a good one. You don't know that a talent is better until you sim it yourself everytime you get a new piece and there are still scenarios where that better dps isn't actually better dps. Stop being so toxic.

[arkanon]

the moment you know that if i dont pick talent A you will do 20% less dps and say to yourself "i know this talent makes me lose 20% dps but fuck it i dont care" is being bad on purpose like how is it not?

The moment i find a playstyle i enjoy, i say "I really enjoy this spec! cant wait to play it this week!". The scenario you present is only valid for MAYBE 5% of the player population - and thats being generous. The reality is, if you are in the top 5%, that is something you really do need to take into consideration - for everyone else, play what you enjoy. You are arguing from extremes to try and present an extremely unrealistic scenario, and then suggesting that is the norm.

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Correct. Some sites will tell you that some will overall be a certain % stronger but none are near 20%.

Even the ones that are 5% or even 10% are calculated in a vacuum. For most players, they will get better overall performance playing a spec they are comfortable with and enjoy compared to simply copying FOTM shit posted on some website or discord, or trying to emulate the top 5%. Far too often i see average or below average players trying to emulate the success of the top 5%, only to fail horribly and perform much, much lower than the "easy" spec with a 10% lower potential output.

Remember, potential output is exactly that - potential. Many of them require advanced play to reach those levels, and for the majority of players, that is simply out of reach. Fire mage in earlier expansions was a prime example - some of the best in the world with extremely high crit from bis gear produced amazing numbers, so mr average man decided he could do the same, and stubbornly run around as fire with 5% crit doing terrible dps, refusing to swap to frost because "bro, fire does WAY more damage"

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You can't control it. Best thing to do is to put people on ignore and move on with your day.

Yeah im not sure why this needs to be said, but some clearly need to hear it. I dont really actively use the ignore function, except for the odd spammer who is trying to be E-Famous by endlessly spamming some generic bullshit. Other than that, if someone annoys me, i literally just stop paying attention to them.

[munkeyinorbit]

Why would people be more toxic? Players get rewarded for not leaving, so you can imagine people would be nicer or bite their tongue. I'll admit people will be less willing to pug out of fear of joining a bad group, but I know one thing, negative reinforcement is going in the wrong direction. The only way negative reinforcement works is if it's applied 100% of the time and consistent. The issue is, it never will be. It's like punishing kids. Kids that receive negative reinforcement don't learn from their wrongs, they learn how to not get caught and lie. It becomes more about avoiding the consequences and working around them rather than learning how to overcome their bad behavior.

If players are given extra incentives to act kind and be nice, they'll do so. People like to get a pat and recognition for playing by the rules and working hard. Players slowly realize that bad/toxic behavior isn't rewarded, but good/happy, stick it out behavior is. Not saying this would remove toxic players from the game, there will always be people like that, but you'd see more results with positive reinforcement than you would with negative reinforcement.

Adding a reward for people who don't leave will lead to players afking if they think it will ruin their rio. It's more efficient that way. In your system you don't get punished for being kicked so it's more efficient to start attacking others. It makes no sense for someone who is toxic to bite their tongue or to complete the run. It makes more sense to increase toxicity. Why waste unknown time when you can waste completetime? Why waste completetime when you can just get kicked for no consequences? Banhammer is the only way to go. If you are toxic then you are excluded. If the toxic people are excluded then they can't be toxic