Constantly switching spec/talents/trinkets is not fun?

[facefist]

It is fun if it affects my gameplay. If the talent swap is something that doesn't really change my gameplay then it's quite lame, but if there actually were choices that make the spec feel different then that is what I find fun.

Picking between two passives where one if better for aoe and one better for single is for example really dull.

[Toybox]

You don’t understand why it’s fun for some

Ok that’s fine

You won’t do it yourself

Ok that’s fine

You don’t want the people who like it to be able to do it...that’s where the problem is

It’s like a pvp player saying mythic needs removed because it requires essentially a rated bg team

It’s like me saying lfr needs removed because it doesn’t do anything for me

Pretty much.

To put it even more simply, why wouldn't I want to pick my AoE talents on an AoE fight? I mean, doesn't it sound more fun to tweak my rotation a bit & get a lot more out of my class on a big AoE fight by simply speccing for Cleave? If it doesn't sound fun, well, whatever works for you & the content you do is fine, but it's not how a lot of people choose to play the game.

[HumbleDuck]

and now you will also be able to swap soulbinds and conduits...

The only problem I have with this system is that I wish covenant swapping was easier than what it is ( well, what they say it will be ).

[Surfacin9]

Isn't being able to adjust your gameplay through gear, talents and other powers based on the fight fun? Isn't it what the current talent system all about? You pick 1 talent for this, another for a different thing. You go into an add fight with heavy AoE prio with a single target build, how fun can that be to you? It also removes the good-old cookie-cutter builds which you set and never touch again. Yes, there are always prefereable choices or the only option in a talent row that is viable, but having levelled every class and looked at talent recommendations for their specs many allow variance in choice in the important rows.

On a rogue alt that just does heroic I switch between outlaw and assasination based on the boss, and even go outlaw for trash because its awfully boring to aoe as assasination that I might as well afk the trash pulls. Its not about being optimal to maximise dps, but it is when it comes to progression of any kind starting with heroic raids. You don't have to switch, but why wouldn't you if it makes you feel more useful.

People did respec when they needed. Dual-spec wasn't something Blizzard came up with to decrease inviduality, but because it was asked heavily by the community. Then community asked for tri-spec and we got the current state. Gear swaps were even messier back then. In wrath I had to have no less than 2 sets for each spec based on the amount of buffs we had (do we have the +hit%, +expertise, +haste to meet haste caps? 1 set for yes, another for no).

If your spec wasn't suited - you were benched for another class. Now you can just swap talents or specs and be in the raid for the player you are and not the class you play. If the boss required a 3rd tank or an extra healer - you can get benched, or may be the raid won't happen because you lack those. If you're a healer or a tank and the boss required less of those, you'd be benched. The ability to swap specs and remain useful HELPED the guilds maintain a roster (you don't have to recruit a 3rd tank for that 1 fight and then manage the pain of raotating them on other bosses) and HELPED players stay in a raid group and continue being viable. Nobody expects the offsepcs to be on the same level as main spec, that was never the case in the casual or semi-hardocre community.

If you don't want to swap to resto when the group needs it, then accept being benched, getting less invites, because, hell, most RLs would prefer a guy who is willing to switch when asked. Or you can play in a tight group of friends who don't care much about the progress pace or ability to kill a certain boss and just go for it.

Personally I always maintain 2 specs on any main and primary alt with, with main's OS and both alt speccs being at least 80% optimal but never at 100% since I don't have the time for it. yet even on pure dps specs I change per boss fight or trash (lock destro/affli, rogue outlaw/assa).

[Aphrel]

healers and tanks especially but also alot of dps classes complained throu vanilla and tbc that they couldnt enjoy bgs or gridning because they didnt have the talents for it and respeccing between raids wasnt feasable.

Dual spec came to the game for a reason...

It's not fun when choices made to make you the best at one part of the game cripples you in the other parts. That will lead to you feeling exluded from the other parts of the game.

You think healers had fun trying to farm elementals in tbc? Every mob took half a damn minute to kill for them.

Warriors were not happy having to respec between arms and prot between raids and arenas, (50% mortal strike was absolutely mandatory). At best it was a goldsink each week of 100g, at worst it made them completly avoid arenas altogether.


giving players the option to change their specialization was a good change.

[Grimbold21]

"Back in the day" we used to complain that our specs/classes were boxed in to certain tasks and roles. Now, with the ability to change your talents on the spot, and the availability of tasks for most situations, that complaint is close to non existent.

So, the choices would be: do you enjoy making a decision and dealing with its consequences, or not being barred by ultimate choices and do whatever you feel like, while at the same time (and in my opinion) eroding any sense of identity that the character you play may or not have?

[Geckoo]

Pretty much.

To put it even more simply, why wouldn't I want to pick my AoE talents on an AoE fight? I mean, doesn't it sound more fun to tweak my rotation a bit & get a lot more out of my class on a big AoE fight by simply speccing for Cleave? If it doesn't sound fun, well, whatever works for you & the content you do is fine, but it's not how a lot of people choose to play the game.

Let me add that wanting to adapt your class/spec to a certain situation does not mean that your class/spec becomes the best at that situation, or that the player expects his class/spec to be the best for that situation, it just means that your class/spec becomes better than it was for that situation. The inherent strengths and weaknesses each class/spec has are not being questioned here, that's why this whole debate exists with covenants and has never existed with classes.

It's also important to consider this with a group mentality, because you might have talents more oriented to AoE, but maybe your group already has the apropiate people to deal with that part of the fight and you'll help more by sticking to one target since it also happens to be what your spec does best. And the same can happen the other way around if your group lacks those good AoE class/specs and you need to step up with whatever you can to help.

It's the possibility to toy around with all that stuff both from a personal and group point of view what makes it fun. Adapt to a given situation to perform better as a way to both improve your performance and help out your group, even if the second happens just as a consequence of the first. And when it comes to things you can unlock or adquire, like different sets of gear or trinkets, it's fun to obtain them, to slowly build your arsenal and reaching a point where you can basically play multiple builds optimally because you did make an effort to have the apropiate tools.

[razorpax]

"Back in the day" we used to complain that our specs/classes were boxed in to certain tasks and roles. Now, with the ability to change your talents on the spot, and the availability of tasks for most situations, that complaint is close to non existent.

So, the choices would be: do you enjoy making a decision and dealing with its consequences, or not being barred by ultimate choices and do whatever you feel like, while at the same time (and in my opinion) eroding any sense of identity that the character you play may or not have?

personally i dont think 1 ability makes my character any more unique especially when it hinders my gameplay because i like playing multiple specs

you can keep identity through the cosmetic options your class has

i think blizzard forgot this when they designed the covenants around a ton of cosmetic rewards

[Vdub4133]

Yes, I know what spirit does. Which was the point of my post literally all spirt did was act as an artificial barrier to healing because without it you arbitrarily couldn't heal. Hence my comment about tank stats, they were also arbitrary but they still actually did something.

It's still very possible to go oom on live as a healer. Further, it was always, always the case that after a certain point in the gear cycle healers would stop going oom and spirit became a dead stat, there are multiple blue posts and dev watercoolers about spirit making gear feel bad for healers after a point. I remember clearly at the end of ToC and early ICC tanks were just stacking stam because it was impossible for a healer to oom just spamming them.

You raise great points! Maybe it is just nostalgia, but as someone who has played a resto shaman/holy paladin since TBC, healing isn't as fun as it used to be, nor as difficult. I personally enjoyed spirits function rather than mana regeneration be talented or driven by a passive effect.

[Capultro]

yes,it is not fun.look dhs 1 build good for all.

may be would be good some talents for solo,no more. we are not be changing talents after every boss,and gear this is stupid

but,some differents buils/game play builds is good based in exclusive talents...

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Yes, people like to be able to make choices on the fly.

Imagine that.

There is only 1 choice when you can change anything anytime and everyone will just sim/google the best choice. I do honestly think there's quite a lot of people that don't quite understand the issue.

Making a choice to spec single target or not for a dungeon for example has so many variables cause you have to look at the dungeon and your group as a whole, but if you can change everything for let's say Harlan Sweete everyone is going to spec for single target and that's it. You wouldn't spec for any utility ever. You would also be able to pick the talents that have the longest cooldowns cause hey, it's the last boss.

Understanding long dungeons as whole is much more difficult than going brrrrrr single target for bosses then back to aoe legendaries and spec for all the trash. Only skillful thing about changing specs would be keeping tabs which spec has their cds ready, switching to that for one fight then going for the next. Does not really seem quite interesting and heavily benefits triple dps classes more.

edit: Also how do you balance weapon enchants if you can change weapons while one is on cd, how do you balance on use trinkets if you swap them away when they are on cooldown? How do you balance triple dps spec classes that have cds on each spec vs single spec dps classes? This system allows so much more space to create all these things it's not even a thing worth arguing about that much.

[pewpmeiser]

the vast majority don't do this, only if you get a hard on for min/maxing

[Aggrophobic]

No one is forcing you though.

No ones forcing you to do anything. Eat, sleep, whatever.
If you want to play the game though, yeah you are forced to do that.

[WaltherLeopold]

If you want to play the game though, yeah you are forced to do that.

No you're not, who is FORCING you to do this?

[Stardrift]

Link logs for this top performance?

It's a casual raiding group that barely tips their toes into mythic by the end of an expansion. You really want links and proof for something so trivially achieved? I'm not even with the guild any more as I've deleted my account, so I cannot give you any logs even if I wanted to.

How many guilds are exactly like mine? How many of them are better/worse but achieved the same things? Do you know how many people that makes being at the top of their guild's performances? It makes me quite insignificant, if you think I'm trying to brag here.

All I'm saying is your tireless min/maxing, number pinching and stretching completely does not matter whatsoever (except for high end mythic guilds, of course) and when you start bitching and whining at people who also don't do it, you're making yourself look even more redundant.

[sephrinx]

I switch specs/talents/etc all the time, multiple times a day usually.

If I'm not allowed to do that in Shadowlands I'll just play another game that lets me have fun.

[Tyris Flare]

It's a casual raiding group that barely tips their toes into mythic by the end of an expansion. You really want links and proof for something so trivially achieved? I'm not even with the guild any more as I've deleted my account, so I cannot give you any logs even if I wanted to.

How many guilds are exactly like mine? How many of them are better/worse but achieved the same things? Do you know how many people that makes being at the top of their guild's performances? It makes me quite insignificant, if you think I'm trying to brag here.

All I'm saying is your tireless min/maxing, number pinching and stretching completely does not matter whatsoever (except for high end mythic guilds, of course) and when you start bitching and whining at people who also don't do it, you're making yourself look even more redundant.

I just think it's funny when someone claims to be a "top performer" with no context is all. Getting that hot 15 parse while the rest of your guild gets an 8 isn't all that impressive!

[Alkizon]

MiiiMiii
I don't understand how anyone think it's fun to bring a stack of switch-any-talent-for-1min in their bag and between every single boss fight, they switch to the optimal talents for that boss. I have even seen people switch for trash mobs then back to boss talents. How is choosing a talent a choice, if you change them around every fight?

This again. I'll quote only part of it:

Current design of classes' organization is very flawed in quality of "development", since perks are too "greedy" for influence (a lot of them are too significant to be just talents (they create spec mechanics, not complement/benefit specific "whole class'" ones), as well as what is distributed to specs separately by default - these systems disrupt organization of healthy, both momentary and long-term choices
- - -
there happened not only possibility, but also need for constant switching of what was previously always available, hanch such general dominance and demand of min&max-ing mentality; think for yourself, how often you would need to switch old talents in side-altars of your priority build, mmm? maximum "PvP/PvE and other role" right? because there was no such significant burning feeling that you were losing something class related much and this despite fact that if your build will be very different from "standard", you were staying just representative of your class, highly specialized or broad-based on your choice; and all because degree of influence and appointment of new and old talents differs greatly within design
- - -
that over past six months we have also discussed in sufficient detail, and even devs didn't miss opportunity to turn this into ridiculous meme/put in service of marketing), which is why, when trying to return "build" significance within classes in Legion, the latter one were simply smashed to pieces (which we, in fact, have been talking about for years, and smart people talked about this already during process of new system's formation). The latter speaks (again) in favor of fact, that no matter how pleasant new system is/was, but foundation laid in Cata and implemented in MoP wasn't in favor of game.

Problem is in class structure and specifics of talents. There was no such thing before, which means that in general there was no such urgent need. Sad that there are some individuals asking for "more and more really significant talents". When offering something it's worth thinking about consequences first. I repeat, main talents' task is to support certain mechanics available in the whole class (at the same time, freedom of choice must be respected/without spec's "default" stuff, useful or unhelpful, significant or irrelevant, mandatory or optional, it's player, who has to make any decision, even every another +1%, but none of devs; this is players' right to do "like everyone else", find cunning stuff or make mistake, it adds flexibility (even if just imaginary), since, due to insignificance of 1 step in chosen direction, error/assumption doesn't seem as catastrophe and therefore doesn't require constant momentary change/moderation; system must obey hierarchy without random/misplaced/borrowed~temporary $hit), but not turn each of directions into separate one.

[Popokolara]

9/12mythic down, we are taking it slow, thank for asking...
i thought we are average, but given we dont rly care about having the best classes/talents, and still progress i guess we must be amazing, given how many people claim its necessary to be omptimal in all situations...

- - - Updated - - -



"optimized" yes, optimized to 100%, no
you can have couple "worse" talents and the difference will be pretty much unnoticable, ofc not all specs and all talent rows...

You are not just slow, you are slower than my old alliance guild where the raid leader doesnt even read tactics and they try to six heal encounters because people die.

[Popokolara]

Exactly.

Hilarious

"I'm not getting more fun out of it, so no one can possibly have more fun"

And we are right back to belittling the opinion of people who don't share the same point of view.
It's not even like we are trying to argue in all honesty that system like these have been essential parts of the game.
Like - we are saying it would sure as hell be nice if we had more systems like that, because we prefer it over the current way of things.

Also 50g are way more expensive back in Vanilla when the game was rather fresh than it is now in Classic.
A lot of people didn't have Expert Riding or even Expert Flying in BC several months in after hitting max level even though they played all day. But I don't really want to discuss this, because it's not relevant.

Lets play a game whenever you say something that is not true or answer to a comment that was never made you slap yourself.

He said that you restrict him with your prefered design and then that you do not explain exactly what fun means.

He did not say you arent having fun.he is implying your idea of fun is a low maturity placebo effect.

You may proceed to slapping.

- - - Updated - - -

The game shouldn't be balanced around mythic raiders. They are a minority

Hey guys lets balance around those that dont use the tuning of balancing !gulp!