Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[prwraith]

idk what my IO is but I do 20's pretty regularly..it's only a part of the game if you're in a bad / no guild. I don't even have the addon installed

[Twdft]

you would be put into one of the following groups:

And noone would use LFD anymore. Mythic+ is actually too hard for automatic matchmaking. All you would accomplish is players would search for groups outside dingeon browser, something like openraid would pop up again.

[cherb]

LFD tool.

You have to have a M+ key in order to queue, but M+0 would also be on the LFD tool. You would be grouped with other players either on or one step below your key range. This would be based off the loot that drops out of the M+ chest as below:

*M+2 and 3 (435)
*M+4 (440)
*M+5 and 6 (445)
*M+7 (450)
*M+8, 9, and 10 (455)
*M+11, 12, and 13 (460)
*M+14 and 15 (465)

If a key would be upgraded/depleted, all of the group's keys are upgraded/depleted.

For example, if you had an M+7 key, and joined LFM+, you would be put into one of the following groups:

*Your or another player's M+7 key, with players with M+5 through M+7 keys
*Another player's M+9 key, with players with M+7 through M+10 keys

Legitimately one of the worst ideas I've ever seen for m+. Not everything in wow needs automated matchmaking. It's ok for people to choose their groups and exclude people that they don't want to play with.

[david0925]

LFD tool.

You have to have a M+ key in order to queue, but M+0 would also be on the LFD tool. You would be grouped with other players either on or one step below your key range. This would be based off the loot that drops out of the M+ chest as below:

*M+2 and 3 (435)
*M+4 (440)
*M+5 and 6 (445)
*M+7 (450)
*M+8, 9, and 10 (455)
*M+11, 12, and 13 (460)
*M+14 and 15 (465)

If a key would be upgraded/depleted, all of the group's keys are upgraded/depleted.

For example, if you had an M+7 key, and joined LFM+, you would be put into one of the following groups:

*Your or another player's M+7 key, with players with M+5 through M+7 keys
*Another player's M+9 key, with players with M+7 through M+10 keys

So as long as someone have a key I can't filter people? Why?

Why must information be hidden that people can't intelligently form their group, just so a subset of people can hide behind lack of information?

[Firebert]

And noone would use LFD anymore. Mythic+ is actually too hard for automatic matchmaking[...]

...without proper entry restrictions; this does so as the keys indicate the level of your own matchmaking and is in and of itself an entry restriction.

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Not everything in wow needs automated matchmaking.

Dungeons fell behind community gatekeeping; LFD created.
Raids fell behind community gatekeeping; LFR created.
It's the logical next step.

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So as long as someone have a key I can't filter people? Why?

Why must information be hidden that people can't intelligently form their group, just so a subset of people can hide behind lack of information?

Because the community can't be trusted with the information.

[This One Time At Bandcamp]

Gearscore literally got implemented into the default UI.

You can already see peoples highest keys and progress without addons - in the armory.

Its to stop tricking people into boosting you - and deplete peoples keys.

[Twdft]

Dungeons fell behind community gatekeeping; LFD created.
Raids fell behind community gatekeeping; LFR created.

LFR/LFD were made because realms died, they were the first possibility to play cross realm.

[Kaver]

Comparing gearscore to raider.io is extremely stupid. It just shows that the OP has no idea what he is talking about and is probably just mad that he cannot trick his way into groups to get boosted.

[Relapses]

Because the community can't be trusted with the information.

What, exactly, is your idea of trust? Because actively making the game worse by removing the basic ability to form your own fucking group and adding M+ to a fucking matchmaking queue is such a brazen and insultingly terrible approach that it's actually hard to believe you're serious.

[ID811717]

Why is a +9 with a second overtime less worth than a +7 barely in time? Why? This makes no sense. The score is already a bit lower due to the run being slower.

+9 AD exactly on time gives 90.0 score.
+9 AD one second over time gives 80.0 score.
+7 AD 3-chested in 8m22s gives 79.3 score.
+9 with a second over time will never be worth less than +7.

This is true for all key levels. If you deplete a key by just a couple of seconds, you will always get roughly the same score as if you timed the same key at one level below that:
+29 ML one second over time gives 556.0 score.
+28 ML one second under time gives 556.0 score.

Also i don't get why dungeons above +10 give even more points per level. This shows the difference between 2000 and 2100 greater than it actually is.

Raider.io explained it here:

We wanted to reward players for successfully running higher and higher keys, so we made the base value of a dungeon increase exponentially — just like the difficulty of the dungeons themselves.

And here are the number of points you get for each key level.

If you want to get into the nitty-gritty, assume that some key level is X times harder than +2 (meaning all mobs have X times more health and deal X times more damage). Then timing this key level will give you roughly this much score:

46 points * X

(The above scaling kicks in roughly starting from +8. Keys below +8 actually give less raider.io score per difficulty).

Here are some data points showing the base difficulty (in percentage) for different key levels, and how many points you get based on this difficulty:

02 100%
03 110%=100%+10%
04 121%=100%+21%
05 133%=100%+33%
06 146%=100%+46%
07 161%=100%+61%
08 177% --> 80 points / 1.77 times increase over +2 difficulty = 45.19 points
09 194% --> 90 / 1.94 = 46.39
10 214% --> 100 / 2.14 = 46.72
11 235% --> 110 / 2.35 = 46.80
12 259% --> 121 / 2.59 = 46.80
13 285% --> 133 / 2.85 = 46.66
14 313% --> 146 / 3.13 = 46.64
15 345%=100%+245% --> 161 / 3.45 = 46.66
16 379% --> 177 / 3.79 = 46.70
17 417% --> 195 / 4.17 = 46.76
18 459% --> 214 / 4.59 = 46.62
19 505% --> 236 / 5.05 = 46.73
20 555% --> 259 / 5.55 = 46.66
...
27 1083%=100%+983% --> 505 / 10.83 = 46.66
28 1191% --> 556 / 11.91 = 46.68
29 1310% --> 612 / 13.1 = 46.71
30 1442% --> 673 / 14.42 = 46.67
31 1586%
32 1744%

Basically, if someone has 3 times higher score than yours, it indicates they are doing M+ levels that are 3 times harder than what you do. (Assuming you both are doing all dungeons). For example +27 key is roughly 3 times harder than +15 key, and so someone who has timed all +27s will have 3x more score than someone who timed all +15s. Similarly, someone who has timed all +32s will have roughly 5x more score than someone who timed all +15s, because 1744% / 345% = 5.05.

And i'm not even stepping into the problem we will have with shadowlands again - no points for dungeon runs on a bigger server without someone on a smaller one in the group towards the end of the week.

Blizzard has been showing every char's highest timed keystone in each dungeon on Armory since December 2018. Raider.io quickly started fetching this information, so the big server problem no longer exists. You might still lose score for some of your depleted runs, but in the current community those runs are not considered as an achievement (and raider.io scores reflect that).

[dragnipur]

What, exactly, is your idea of trust? Because actively making the game worse by removing the basic ability to form your own fucking group and adding M+ to a fucking matchmaking queue is such a brazen and insultingly terrible approach that it's actually hard to believe you're serious.

Idk why R IO gets so much hatred.

It's basically a quicker way to check somebody's armory. It's even more lenient than armory because armory only displays the highest timed key.
If you timed a +6 ages ago when gearing and then ran a +17 out of time recently the armory STILL lists your +6 as the "best" run.
R IO gauges runs by points and that +17 is going to be worth way, WAY more points than +6, even out of time.

Aside from that, it also provides high-end players a competitive environment.
The game itself does not do that. Achievements end at +15, there's nothing to gain beyond this. R IO gives you score. And people are pushing keys for this score, to rank better against others. And to show off this high score in game. If you see a player with 5000 rating you know he's a big D pusher. This is thanks to IO, otherwise all you can see in game is keymaster mount for all 15's. Nothing more.

I agree with you two on 100%.I find RIO quite usefull.It displays all the information i need.I don't just blindly invite people.After seeing what is their RIO and ilvl i go to the site to see have they timed the dungeon which i'm doing.If they did with what affixes.When did they do it.What was their best try.I really like all the filters RIO provides.I hope it stays the way it is.Only the ignorant will rely only on the score.

[rodinspfc]

When I read some "solutions" for R.IO here I actually feel glad that none of this people will ever get near a position to actually make a decision, going from "high skilled players need to teach everyone" to a half ass LFD+. This people have the whole information about wow at their fingertips and yet they choose to complain about non existent problems.

[Shakhar]

...without proper entry restrictions; this does so as the keys indicate the level of your own matchmaking and is in and of itself an entry restriction.

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Dungeons fell behind community gatekeeping; LFD created.
Raids fell behind community gatekeeping; LFR created.
It's the logical next step.

- - - Updated - - -


Because the community can't be trusted with the information.

Mate, you have automated entry to dungeons on your proper level, it is called Heroic.

[Surfd]

Gearscore literally got implemented into the default UI.

Kind of a "chicken and egg" thing there though.

Gear always had an item level / stat budget back in the days of Gearscore. It's what Gearscore itself was actually based on: People datamining / reverse engineering the game code to figure out exactly how stats on items were determined so they could make a comparative analysis of 2 pieces of gear and be able to say "this piece is X% better than that one". The only difference was that in the Gearscore days the iLevel was hidden.

Blizzard just finally decided that if people were going to datamine/reverse engineer the iLevel on stuff, they might as well just directly expose it.

So it wasn't so much that Blizzard implimented gearscore into the Default UI, but instead that blizzard just decided to stop hiding the info that gearscore was based around in the first place.

[Firebert]

Mate, you have automated entry to dungeons on your proper level, it is called Heroic[...]

...and Normal, and LFR.

Like I said, it's the next logical step.

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What, exactly, is your idea of trust? Because [...] it's actually hard to believe you're serious.

Unfortunately Pandora's box has been opened. There are far too many people looking at the top 1% of M+ and applying it to the rest of the population. The "trickle down" mentality needs to change. It is unlikely to.

I am serious.

[Wuusah]

...and Normal, and LFR.

Like I said, it's the next logical step.

No, it really isn't. It's not a logical step to make everything automated... There is a reason why only the lowest of the lowest of difficulties are done via LFD/LFR. It's because LFD/LFR falls apart the moment there is some difficulty. Just look at Cataclysm release dungeons. Those dungeons weren't THAT difficult as everyone makes them seem. If you went in with decent players in a premade group, you'd just crush them with pre-raid equip without much of a problem.
But the moment you go in it with completely random players, is them moment where everything falls apart. Even in this M+ idea where you only get into your own key level with random players. It just wouldn't work. Just because someone has a high key doesn't mean that they know what they are doing.

We are playing an MMO and communication is a big part of MMOs. The communication in group building is an important part of that. LFD/LFR is more like playing a singleplayer game with bots.

edit: You have it backwards. LFD/LFR is Pandora's box.

[Firebert]

There is a reason why only the lowest of the lowest of difficulties are done via LFD/LFR.

Heroic dungeons aren't the lowest dungeon difficulty.

Just because someone has a high key doesn't mean that they know what they are doing.

Except they only got that key because they were successful in what they were doing.

LFD/LFR is Pandora's box.

Fortunately, it's the future.

[Wuusah]

Heroic dungeons aren't the lowest dungeon difficulty.

They are part of the cluster of lowest difficulties. There is no difference between normal and heroic other than normal being used for leveling and heroic being used for max level only. The difficulty difference is negligible.

Except they only got that key because they were successful in what they were doing.

Someone who can do +15 Junkyard doesn't necessarily know how to do +15 SotS. Dungeon doesn't equal dungeon. On top of that you could have a dps getting carried through by the rest of the team and now that person decided to be the tank. Just because they managed to reach a +15 key doesn't mean they know how to tank on that level, do they?

Fortunately, it's the future.

It's quite literally the past. There was a time when LFD was the highest difficulty dungeons were offering and then Blizzard made Mythic and then M+ where you cannot join via LFD. They did this intentionally. It's not an oversight. M+ will NEVER be part of LFD. There was a time when LFR gave decent ilvl rewards. Nowadays Blizzard tries to keep LFR as useless as possible. It's incredible how delusional you are.

[Bloodyleech]

Someone who can do +15 Junkyard doesn't necessarily know how to do +15 SotS. Dungeon doesn't equal dungeon. On top of that you could have a dps getting carried through by the rest of the team and now that person decided to be the tank. Just because they managed to reach a +15 key doesn't mean they know how to tank on that level, do they?

Absolutely this.
Last ID I had a tank in a 15 UR that didn't know about necrotic or raging. He just went completely facetank and jumped with 40 stacks into next enemy groups.
He wasn't even aware that he did the mistake and flamed the healer for it, even though people told him. These are the worst people, like.. really.

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Heroic dungeons aren't the lowest dungeon difficulty.


Except they only got that key because they were successful in what they were doing.


Fortunately, it's the future.

The highest difficulty is not runnable via lfr/lfd.
See rated PvP, Raids (and moreso mythic, which can't be done crossrealm without 100 alli/horde finishing it first), Mythic Dungeons.

And just because someone got a 15 key it doesn't mean he's able to run this dungeon level.

[Firebert]

They are part of the cluster of lowest difficulties.

Ah, moving the goalposts. I like playing the "draw the arbitrary line" game:

Normal raids are part of the cluster of lowest difficulties

M+0 is part of the cluster of lowest difficulties

There is no difference between normal and heroic

Explicitly false, even taking into account your reason: mob difficulty scales in Normal to level, and Heroic drops better loot.

Just because they managed to reach a +15 key doesn't mean they know how to tank on that level, do they?

It does.

[...]Blizzard made Mythic and then M+ where you cannot join via LFD. They did this intentionally.

All group content existed initially without a queuing system. PvP Battlegrounds required manual groups. Dungeons required manual groups. Raids required manual groups. Arena required manual groups. After enough time, community gatekeeping mandated automated systems.

M+ was intentionally not on the LFD queue for esports reasons. They're trying to make M+ celebrities from premade teams; this can't happen if the groups are randomised

If MDI fails, which I think it will, the gatekeeping will force Blizzard's hand.
Infracted;