Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[DemonDays]

Because it lets Blizzard get away with leaving shit unbalanced, breeds toxicity, and causes people to think they are better than they are.

If there is a choice of a skill that gives you insane dps, a good one, and one that gives you negative dps and people can easily swap Blizzard doesn't need to worry about that last talent right away and may even just leave it until they get enough flak. But if its something hard to change and people can't just instantly change Blizzard has to fix that shit fast.

As another poster said - you assume Blizzard actually fucking cares?

If Blizzard CARED they wouldn't have left Talents in the state they're in currently.

Are you aware that over the course of 2 years this expansion has had the least amount of balance changes in the history of this game?

Why haven't talents received a decent tuning pass in 2 years? Possibly because they don't give a fuck.



Maybe if Blizzard wants to push this MEANINGFUL CHOICE narrative they should clean their fucking room and take a look at BASE SYSTEMS like TALENTS first? Aye?

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What are you talking about? I called out your lying bullshit I didn't say anything about me needing to get into a guild or anything.

I'm not annoyed about people having accurate tools. If someone learns that a frost dk has the best dps and chooses to invest his time and effort into leveling and gearing up to catch up to current content thats fine. What I'm annoyed with is that many people are using it to get into content they can't clear without using the most op shit. Your defensiveness makes it pretty clear that your one of the people who knows they couldn't make it without the extra help. I want people to put work in while you want to be handheld. Which one of us needs the reality check? We will see who has to drop down a tier when Blizzard keeps covenants the way they are.

I can't "put work in" if I am arbitrarily doing 15-20% less DPS than the Unholy DK beside me just because I chose the Covenant that I liked the cosmetics on.

No amount of skill can amount for 15-20%. Which is the current difference between some talent rows. Which is the difference between some Azerite, Corruptions and Essences.


You assume Blizzard gives a fuck enough to put the EFFORT in required to balance such a complex and BINDING choice. You assume WRONG.

[qwerty123456]

As another poster said - you assume Blizzard actually fucking cares?

If Blizzard CARED they wouldn't have left Talents in the state they're in currently.

Are you aware that over the course of 2 years this expansion has had the least amount of balance changes in the history of this game?

Why haven't talents received a decent tuning pass in 2 years? Possibly because they don't give a fuck.



Maybe if Blizzard wants to push this MEANINGFUL CHOICE narrative they should clean their fucking room and take a look at BASE SYSTEMS like TALENTS first? Aye?

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I can't "put work in" if I am arbitrarily doing 15-20% less DPS than the Unholy DK beside me just because I chose the Covenant that I liked the cosmetics on.

No amount of skill can amount for 15-20%. Which is the current difference between some talent rows. Which is the difference between some Azerite, Corruptions and Essences.


You assume Blizzard gives a fuck enough to put the EFFORT in required to balance such a complex and BINDING choice. You assume WRONG.

Um you do realize you can change covenants right? You just can't instant swap.

[Craaazyyy]

its of course right, catering to majority of your customers

if only they knew that it's not the majority of all of their customers(including former customers)

or that not appealing to them changes nothing for them

[DemonDays]

Um you do realize you can change covenants right? You just can't instant swap.

You can change with a heavy grind. Which makes you lose access to the cosmetics you probably chose the Covenant for in the first place. Which is honestly probably what they're hoping for hey, keep those active user numbers up.

You see. All you people parroting for "MY RPG BINDING CHOICE" are hilarious because it isn't even permanent.

It's almost like Blizzard knows they will fail to balance these.



Or you know. You could make the choice of Covenant permanent but make the Abilities swappable. It's almost like that would be ideal for everyone.

[qwerty123456]

You can change with a heavy grind. Which makes you lose access to the cosmetics you probably chose the Covenant for in the first place. Which is honestly probably what they're hoping for hey, keep those active user numbers up.

You see. All you people parroting for "MY RPG BINDING CHOICE" are hilarious because it isn't even permanent.

It's almost like Blizzard knows they will fail to balance these.



Or you know. You could make the choice of Covenant permanent but make the Abilities swappable. It's almost like that would be ideal for everyone.

When have I said "my RPG Choice". I have said I'm against instant swaps because it lets lazy bads enter content they shouldn't.

It's funny how all you people claiming this will destroy the game all parrot that its only casual haters trying to hurt the big elites. It's like you can't actually come up with an argument as to why its bad. If everyone can't swap easily then clearly content will be balanced around that fact. If you choose to focus on the better raid ability then its ok to deal with a less than optimal arena skill or swap and then do a grind to get your raid skill back. It's like you people feel like you need to be perfect in every situation. And don't forget once you unlock transmogs you get them for good. So maybe switch to your cosmetic transmog at the end of the expansion when you don't need your raid/pvp skills anymore?

Put work in stop being lazy.

And the heavy grind is getting back to a covenant you betrayed by leaving.

[Elbob]

As another poster said - you assume Blizzard actually fucking cares?

If Blizzard CARED they wouldn't have left Talents in the state they're in currently.

Are you aware that over the course of 2 years this expansion has had the least amount of balance changes in the history of this game?

Why haven't talents received a decent tuning pass in 2 years? Possibly because they don't give a fuck.

You gonna need a citation, last time you made a similar claim it was "We just went an entire TWO YEAR expansion cycle without a single tuning pass to under or over performing talents" which was COMPLETELY untrue. Just want to point this out cause you are known to spout pure BS in the past and I think people should expect citations for your claims.

[razorpax]

fun fact: casuals outnumber the vocal minority (hence minority). Blizzard will always cater to the largest portion of people giving them money.

right or wrong, its how the world works.

then i hope nobody ever tries to say blizzard caters to the top end again

being happy that others are having the way they have played this game for a decade changed and they dont like it is really creepy and extremely selfish

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When have I said "my RPG Choice". I have said I'm against instant swaps because it lets lazy bads enter content they shouldn't.

It's funny how all you people claiming this will destroy the game all parrot that its only casual haters trying to hurt the big elites. It's like you can't actually come up with an argument as to why its bad. If everyone can't swap easily then clearly content will be balanced around that fact. If you choose to focus on the better raid ability then its ok to deal with a less than optimal arena skill or swap and then do a grind to get your raid skill back. It's like you people feel like you need to be perfect in every situation. And don't forget once you unlock transmogs you get them for good. So maybe switch to your cosmetic transmog at the end of the expansion when you don't need your raid/pvp skills anymore?

Put work in stop being lazy.

And the heavy grind is getting back to a covenant you betrayed by leaving.

ok heres a reason

anhancement shamans have an ability that does not work for them
it is functionally a dead button
this same ability works well with the other specs

so why not allow swappable abilities

"swappable abilities means baddies get into content"
yet at the same time
"not being optimal doesnt effect your ability to do content"

if ppl just admit they dont want others to enjoy their gameplay then this wouldnt need 4 new threads a day trying to paint it as some great crime to want swappable abilities

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if only they knew that it's not the majority of all of their customers(including former customers)

or that not appealing to them changes nothing for them

making the abilities swappable indeed does nothing negative for players

if players dont want to swap then they dont have to

if they dont want to swap covenants or experience the system the way it is now they can wait between swaps

idk why theres a sudden obsession over "fixing" how players have played this game for years and this obsession is from players who arent effected by it

[DemonDays]

When have I said "my RPG Choice". I have said I'm against instant swaps because it lets lazy bads enter content they shouldn't.

It's funny how all you people claiming this will destroy the game all parrot that its only casual haters trying to hurt the big elites. It's like you can't actually come up with an argument as to why its bad. If everyone can't swap easily then clearly content will be balanced around that fact. If you choose to focus on the better raid ability then its ok to deal with a less than optimal arena skill or swap and then do a grind to get your raid skill back. It's like you people feel like you need to be perfect in every situation. And don't forget once you unlock transmogs you get them for good. So maybe switch to your cosmetic transmog at the end of the expansion when you don't need your raid/pvp skills anymore?

Put work in stop being lazy.

And the heavy grind is getting back to a covenant you betrayed by leaving.

Oh okay. I'll just swap back to the cosmetic choice I want AT THE END of the expansion and re-grind all my Renown? What an absolutely idiotic argument. It's not only cosmetics. It's lore and story questing for the entire expansion too.

If this is the type of argument you consider "good" then maybe you should re-evaluate your own posts calling others out?

Also hilarious that you'd attempt to claim swapping allows bads to enter content they shouldn't. Because its the exact opposite. There's even a post on this forum from a self confessed awful player who is praising the Covenant system because it will allow him to get in to more groups and stop getting denied. All on the merit of a binding choice. Not his own skill: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Yes-here-s-why

It's ironic that you should say "put work in, be lazy". This is exactly what Blizzard should do - but have proven time and time again that they're too fucking lazy to do REGULAR BALANCE PATCHES.

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then i hope nobody ever tries to say blizzard caters to the top end again

being happy that others are having the way they have played this game for a decade changed and they dont like it is really creepy and extremely selfish

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ok heres a reason

anhancement shamans have an ability that does not work for them
it is functionally a dead button
this same ability works well with the other specs

so why not allow swappable abilities

"swappable abilities means baddies get into content"
yet at the same time
"not being optimal doesnt effect your ability to do content"

if ppl just admit they dont want others to enjoy their gameplay then this wouldnt need 4 new threads a day trying to paint it as some great crime to want swappable abilities

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making the abilities swappable indeed does nothing negative for players

if players dont want to swap then they dont have to

if they dont want to swap covenants or experience the system the way it is now they can wait between swaps

idk why theres a sudden obsession over "fixing" how players have played this game for years and this obsession is from players who arent effected by it

"Blizzard is constantly catering to the 1%!! They're ruining the game!"

-Dumbed down class design.
-Dumbed down talent system.
-Removal of re-forging.
-Dumbed down stats.
-Removal of tier sets. No need to raid anymore.
-GCD change to slow game down and help awful players.
-AoE target cap change to slow game down.
-Removal of master loot.
-Increase of passive RNG proc effects removing SKILL from the game. Now over 50% of your damage comes from random sources you have no control over. "Are you an awful player who can't do their rotation properly? Never fear, the damage will fire off randomly on it's own now!"

THEY'RE CATERING TO THE 1%!!!!

[iinverse]

The op title is a bait.

Game will not be ruined either fixed or non-fixed covenant choice. It even will be not ruined if there are no covenants at all.

Fixed covenant will ruin competitive part of the game because either will be a bad underperformed choice or content will be balanced taking underperformed variants in mind, so it will be less competitive or it will be too umblalanced combinations for competitive content.

Simple way to fix that problem: remove all abilities that can affect character performance in verious competitive encounters (m raids, rated pvp, m+), from covenant choice. Make permanent lore\transmog\etc choice for RPG lovers, and freely switching abilites for min-maxers.

[Zyky]

-snip-

The game has been ruined since Warlords when they started listening to the crying casuals.

[Caerrona]

Oh okay. I'll just swap back to the cosmetic choice I want AT THE END of the expansion and re-grind all my Renown? What an absolutely idiotic argument. It's not only cosmetics. It's lore and story questing for the entire expansion too.

If this is the type of argument you consider "good" then maybe you should re-evaluate your own posts calling others out?

Also hilarious that you'd attempt to claim swapping allows bads to enter content they shouldn't. Because its the exact opposite. There's even a post on this forum from a self confessed awful player who is praising the Covenant system because it will allow him to get in to more groups and stop getting denied. All on the merit of a binding choice. Not his own skill: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Yes-here-s-why

It's ironic that you should say "put work in, be lazy". This is exactly what Blizzard should do - but have proven time and time again that they're too fucking lazy to do REGULAR BALANCE PATCHES.

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"Blizzard is constantly catering to the 1%!! They're ruining the game!"

-Dumbed down class design.
-Dumbed down talent system.
-Removal of re-forging.
-Dumbed down stats.
-Removal of tier sets. No need to raid anymore.
-GCD change to slow game down and help awful players.
-AoE target cap change to slow game down.
-Removal of master loot.
-Increase of passive RNG proc effects removing SKILL from the game. Now over 50% of your damage comes from random sources you have no control over. "Are you an awful player who can't do their rotation properly? Never fear, the damage will fire off randomly on it's own now!"

THEY'RE CATERING TO THE 1%!!!!

To be fair, the first 5 points you made could also apply to the "top 1%" as the arguement usually boils down to "if im a uh dk i MUST have the same gear, skills, talents with no rng and no outside factors and who ever presses their buttons harder wins"

I understand what you mean though, just throwing my 2 cents in.

[goldlock]

What are you talking about? I called out your lying bullshit I didn't say anything about me needing to get into a guild or anything.

I'm not annoyed about people having accurate tools. If someone learns that a frost dk has the best dps and chooses to invest his time and effort into leveling and gearing up to catch up to current content thats fine. What I'm annoyed with is that many people are using it to get into content they can't clear without using the most op shit. Your defensiveness makes it pretty clear that your one of the people who knows they couldn't make it without the extra help. I want people to put work in while you want to be handheld. Which one of us needs the reality check? We will see who has to drop down a tier when Blizzard keeps covenants the way they are.

I mean im not really defensive I am just saying reality is going to hit you like a bus.

Blizzard rarely buffs broken specs much less spells during a patch. They might nerf ones that are to powerful but buff? That is rare.

[Caerrona]

I personally like how they are set up atm. All the systems we have seen from vanilla > now have pretty much equaled an illusion of choice if you wanted to min-max. Gear, talents, teir pcs, azerite, corruptions and whatever else involved 0 choice because you just pick the best all the time if you wanted to min-max.

Even if you could pick out of the 4 at any given time it still would be a non choice (not more choice) because you would just pick the best at that time.

I hope they find some middle ground like swapping moves your renown over but keep the cd on going back idk.

[Elbob]

The op title is a bait.

Game will not be ruined either fixed or non-fixed covenant choice. It even will be not ruined if there are no covenants at all.

Fixed covenant will ruin competitive part of the game because either will be a bad underperformed choice or content will be balanced taking underperformed variants in mind, so it will be less competitive or it will be too umblalanced combinations for competitive content.

Simple way to fix that problem: remove all abilities that can affect character performance in verious competitive encounters (m raids, rated pvp, m+), from covenant choice. Make permanent lore\transmog\etc choice for RPG lovers, and freely switching abilites for min-maxers.

100% agree with your first/2nd line.

The balance difference on these is entirely overhyped. Some will provide more overall throughput across a dungeon or raid but that doesnt make the others unusable. Just cause mage A does more trash dmg with covenant X doesnt mean he shaved more time off the dungeon than mage B who took covenant Y and did more dmg to bosses but less trash dips. The goal with less flexible covenant abilities is it injects utility of all the covenants into most grps. Sure MDI teams or world first races possibly favor a certain cov but just cause limit is likely to go Kyrian and/or dwarf for the first raid doesnt mean horde races and other covenants won't also have great utility as well. I know a ton of progression guilds really just play world of replication craft where they copy every aspect of better guilds/players but there isnt only 1 right answer to these strats.

Your third point is the exact reason why they linked abilities to covenants. Making free swaps to cov abilities will make them not much a choice but a pre dungeon/boss checklist. Do I need Door of Shadows for this route/boss etc. Taking them out from instanced content is just awkward player power removal especially when many of them effect core rotations.

[Doffen]

Um, the second point, u are completely out of context or subject. You made a claim about covs making people special with these interactions. I told you these interactions are crazy buffs that might probably be nerfed and are not a healthy system. Never did i argue in that segment about swaping choice.
Stop answering strawmen. Answer SPECIFICS not GENERALISATIONS or irrelevant segments.

Mhm, the usual moving of goalpost. When someone calls gets called out on bullshit, lets go with "stop strawmanning". That's when I stop answering.

You did argue about swapping choice, I mean it's your main argument here. And also the only one. I have answered specifics and gave you a well rounded answer(well not to you, but you act silly so I prefer discussing with actual adults). I even did split it up for you so it would be easier to follow.

You do move goalpost like you did with the example you talk about here. Yes, the ability you talk about is probably getting nerfed, but that was not my point, and not yours initially, you just move the goalpost because you had nothing to argue against my point about flavor. Then now I gotta answer that. And you know my opinion, and I know yours, so no point in going down the hole further with you.

[Lolites]

if only they knew that it's not the majority of all of their customers(including former customers)

or that not appealing to them changes nothing for them

well yeah, clairvoyance would be usefull, but until they get it they need to cater to majority of customers they have...
"changes nothing for them" well it changes a lot for players... it changes very little for blizzard, bcs vast majority of people will whine about shadowlands on forums and then go and buy it anyway

[iinverse]

The balance difference on these is entirely overhyped. Some will provide more overall throughput across a dungeon or raid but that doesnt make the others unusable. Just cause mage A does more trash dmg with covenant X doesnt mean he shaved more time off the dungeon than mage B who took covenant Y and did more dmg to bosses but less trash dips. The goal with less flexible covenant abilities is it injects utility of all the covenants into most grps. Sure MDI teams or world first races possibly favor a certain cov but just cause limit is likely to go Kyrian and/or dwarf for the first raid doesnt mean horde races and other covenants won't also have great utility as well. I know a ton of progression guilds really just play world of replication craft where they copy every aspect of better guilds/players but there isnt only 1 right answer to these strats.

Thats more like: don't have teleport ability to skip trash in high m+? gtfo. Noone care about your +5% trash dps if you cant skip.

Your third point is the exact reason why they linked abilities to covenants. Making free swaps to cov abilities will make them not much a choice but a pre dungeon/boss checklist. Do I need Door of Shadows for this route/boss etc. Taking them out from instanced content is just awkward player power removal especially when many of them effect core rotations.

Permanent choice imay be good for roleplay, but sh*t for competitive content. Thats why either remove abilities or make it swappable.
Anyway roleplayers will get their sh*t: lore, look, etc.


UPD. FF14 offer much more roleplay, but you can change everything on the fly, even your class. So its poor excuse for covenants.

[Lolites]

making the abilities swappable indeed does nothing negative for players

oh my god, could people read or at least pretend to read answers by people who dont make them echo chamber?
bcs this blatant lie was answered at least a thousand times, yet people still say it an ignore counterarguments...

what the hell is the point of discusion forum if you ignore all arguments of other side and keep repeating the same bullshit thats been already proven to be complete lie? you might as well take a piece of paper, write "everyone is wrong but me" and staple it to your monitor, you will get the same feedback you are getting from this, and at least we wont have to read THE SAME STUPID UNTRUE argument over and over and over...

[DemonDays]

100% agree with your first/2nd line.

The balance difference on these is entirely overhyped. Some will provide more overall throughput across a dungeon or raid but that doesnt make the others unusable. Just cause mage A does more trash dmg with covenant X doesnt mean he shaved more time off the dungeon than mage B who took covenant Y and did more dmg to bosses but less trash dips. The goal with less flexible covenant abilities is it injects utility of all the covenants into most grps. Sure MDI teams or world first races possibly favor a certain cov but just cause limit is likely to go Kyrian and/or dwarf for the first raid doesnt mean horde races and other covenants won't also have great utility as well. I know a ton of progression guilds really just play world of replication craft where they copy every aspect of better guilds/players but there isnt only 1 right answer to these strats.

Your third point is the exact reason why they linked abilities to covenants. Making free swaps to cov abilities will make them not much a choice but a pre dungeon/boss checklist. Do I need Door of Shadows for this route/boss etc. Taking them out from instanced content is just awkward player power removal especially when many of them effect core rotations.

Incorrect.

EG. Night Fae looks to be the overall best in all situations for Death Knights of all three specs.

Blizzards balance team is dogshit. Anyone who has faith in them balancing these is delusional.

[Elbob]

Thats more like: don't have teleport ability to skip trash in high m+? gtfo. Noone care about your +5% trash dps if you cant skip.


Permanent choice imay be good for roleplay, but sh*t for competitive content. Thats why either remove abilities or make it swappable.
Anyway roleplayers will get their sh*t: lore, look, etc.


UPD. FF14 offer much more roleplay, but you can change everything on the fly, even your class. So its poor excuse for covenants.

The number of grps that expect this sort of thing is so minor in number and even smaller are the number that play at that level and pug spots. I will personally message you an apology the first time I get asked what cov I'm in and get declined for w/e answer i give, but I damn near guarantee it wont happen. I was never once asked what level my neck or artifact weapon were, or what corruption level my cloak was I expect this trend to continue. If you push stuff over ~22's the grps will likely get more stringent but that doesnt mean advantages cant be gained with the "non-meta" covenants.

I never once mentioned role play so i dunno what you are attacking with your second point just some wild swings at nothing i guess. If you want to bring FF14 into the argument you are hurting yourself unless you also advocate for class swapping, or do you reroll every tier for the top parsing class? My main point is about allowing your covenant (much like your class) to bring unique utility to every grp you are in. Cov A may be better for A B C and Cov B better for X Y Z encounters sort of thing, so depending on the fights you wish to excel at you get to choose much like how the class you play does the same thing.