2h Frost is back in Shadowlands!

[Super Kami Dende]

I also dont understand whats the point of this tooltip.. dual wielding alrdy made u hit with both weapons. And you already have both weapons runeforged. Secretly hoping there is another line that says it buffs the runeforge of the 2handed weapon to balance it out.

The point of the Tooltip is that People that have never played a DK or are New to the Game know what happens whilst Dual-Wielding vs 2H.

Not really hard to figure that out.

Also why are people so mad about a change which is pretty much the exact thing we had years ago before DW only?

[iosdeveloper]

doesn't matter in PvE, great stuff for PvP

[Bisque]

So obliterate will be the tuning fork for 2h. I feel that we have done this dance before and obliterate issues in pvp caused 2h to suck but maybe this time will be different... And to the people who wanted 2h frost to have 2 rune enchants equip-able, I doubt blizz ever saw that as an option, unless of course you allow blood and unholy to also use 2 rune enchants.

[RuneDK]

So obliterate will be the tuning fork for 2h. I feel that we have done this dance before and obliterate issues in pvp caused 2h to suck but maybe this time will be different... And to the people who wanted 2h frost to have 2 rune enchants equip-able, I doubt blizz ever saw that as an option, unless of course you allow blood and unholy to also use 2 rune enchants.

We've played this song and dance long enough to know they wont balance it right.

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An entire alpha and beta cycle with no meaningful changes whatsoever to Frost lol

They don't think anything is wrong with it and haven't for a while

[Unholyground]

The only way the increased proc chance on KM is even worth it is if Obliterate is removed from the GCD, having more procs is pointless because they will overlap too often.

[RuneDK]

This class got not much attention for its issues or even number tunings since GC left. Nobody with impact plays or understand the class issues at blizzard, so I would not hope for some change with the trend sind legion/bfa.

You can have again for months both DPS specs in simDPS and logs at the very bottom of every list and still not get any attention for the following raid tier months later, because nobody cares at blizzard. Number tunings after/in heroic raid weeks at least were a safety net till LEGION, but thats gone, they dont tune post content release anymore, so what you see now/first weeks of the expansion is what you get for at least the first 1-2 raid tiers and its the trend for the whole expansion.

If you played at least some parts of legion and bfa you should get the time frame for changes or band aid buffs.

Name 4 classes with multiple specs that *somehow* managed to get get in every content patch since WoD into the upper 1/3 in number tuning, got power-multipliers in gear progression tailored to their needs to go beyond balanced state (starting at 1/3) and never got nerfs or balanced changes to keep all classes competitive. If you think its random, you are clearly not paying any attention.

DKs were arguably in their worst state with GC in charge....Aside from WotLK time.

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The only way the increased proc chance on KM is even worth it is if Obliterate is removed from the GCD, having more procs is pointless because they will overlap too often.

that will never happen, they need to completely redesign KM not obliterate.

[Unholyground]

DKs were arguably in their worst state with GC in charge....Aside from WotLK time.

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that will never happen, they need to completely redesign KM not obliterate.

The other thing I was thinking about is allow KM to stack up to 5 times and have each additional charge spent on use increase the damage of your next Obliterate as well, that would create more interesting gameplay choices unique to 2H.

[Hoeth]

So they are just repeating, almost exactly, what made 2h one of the worst scaling (with gear upgrades) specs in the game.

Buffing OB and nothing else just makes 2h cleave/AOE damage terrible. Again, exactly the same situation for 2h as in early WoD.

Increasing KM proc chance just devalues critical strike rating. Granted that won't really be a problem for the first season or two, but it doesn't help a spec that is hampered by lack of secondary rating value. Better solution would have been for MotFW to allow critical melee hits to randomly proc OB to deal all frost damage. That helps increase the value of mastery and critical strike.

Loss of Razorice is a big deal. Why, why, why not just make MotFW allow for 2 runeforges??!

If 2h goes live like this it will be used for solo content only. Which may have been their intention from the get go, but is still disappointing.

[Unholyground]

So they are just repeating, almost exactly, what made 2h one of the worst scaling (with gear upgrades) specs in the game.

Buffing OB and nothing else just makes 2h cleave/AOE damage terrible. Again, exactly the same situation for 2h as in early WoD.

Increasing KM proc chance just devalues critical strike rating. Granted that won't really be a problem for the first season or two, but it doesn't help a spec that is hampered by lack of secondary rating value. Better solution would have been for MotFW to allow critical melee hits to randomly proc OB to deal all frost damage. That helps increase the value of mastery and critical strike.

Loss of Razorice is a big deal. Why, why, why not just make MotFW allow for 2 runeforges??!

If 2h goes live like this it will be used for solo content only. Which may have been their intention from the get go, but is still disappointing.

Or even better, make Razorice a passive and remove it as a rune forge, and only allow non throughput runes on the offhand.

[RuneDK]

The other thing I was thinking about is allow KM to stack up to 5 times and have each additional charge spent on use increase the damage of your next Obliterate as well, that would create more interesting gameplay choices unique to 2H.

KM should proc off FS and make your next OB be 100% frost damage. It will fix the crit scaling issue that 2H will have and will greatly increase mastery scaling for 2H. This way there's no clipping procs and essentially you get some form of control...and also fix major scaling issues the spec will have all in one swoop. just my opinion though. Even if this is what they do for MotFW only and not make it for the whole spec since this would make DW even better due to RI runeforge.

[Unholyground]

KM should proc off FS and make your next OB be 100% frost damage. It will fix the crit scaling issue that 2H will have and will greatly increase mastery scaling for 2H. This way there's no clipping procs and essentially you get some form of control...and also fix major scaling issues the spec will have all in one swoop. just my opinion though. Even if this is what they do for MotFW only and not make it for the whole spec since this would make DW even better due to RI runeforge.

That isn't a bad idea, considering it literally has Frozen in the name of the passive the frost damage makes sense. I was just coming up with solutions that fit in their design since we know they always try to band-aid the band-aids lol.

[RuneDK]

That isn't a bad idea, considering it literally has Frozen in the name of the passive the frost damage makes sense. I was just coming up with solutions that fit in their design since we know they always try to band-aid the band-aids lol.

The sad part is, it's such an easy fix that I dont understand how it feels like it's not even on their radar. And it would help fix the scaling issues frost has had since Cataclysm. KM as it is, has always been the problem with the spec and they keep band-aiding obliterate. I just wish for once they would openly listen to people who play the class and stop thinking because they design it they're smarter.

[Unholyground]

The sad part is, it's such an easy fix that I dont understand how it feels like it's not even on their radar. And it would help fix the scaling issues frost has had since Cataclysm. KM as it is, has always been the problem with the spec and they keep band-aiding obliterate. I just wish for once they would openly listen to people who play the class and stop thinking because they design it they're smarter.

They managed to make Enhancement feel pretty fluid after their major changes and while it is not perfect it is in a good place. Not sure why they feel DK is so hard to balance properly.

[Ascius]

They managed to make Enhancement feel pretty fluid after their major changes and while it is not perfect it is in a good place. Not sure why they feel DK is so hard to balance properly.

I'm likely very wrong, but I personally think they're absolutely afraid of going back to Wrath DK's and why they keep it so toned down, just tuning a knob and hoping it works, instead of actually working or reworking a class.

[Unholyground]

I'm likely very wrong, but I personally think they're absolutely afraid of going back to Wrath DK's and why they keep it so toned down, just tuning a knob and hoping it works, instead of actually working or reworking a class.

I mean I get it, I love DK and it will always be my favorite class at the end of the day but if they are making changes to better the health of the class and specs most people would be on board with them. Frost has been a sore thumb for them since Wrath and they never really knew how to fix them.

[Lucrece]

If for some coding reason they can't allow 2 runefrges on 2H weps, just baseline rune of razorice as a frost passive and limit runeforges to your mainhand weapon to put both weapons on an equal playing field.

I also like the idea of making KM proc off frost strike.

As a bonus wish list for frost, they could baseline frost scythe as an aoe builder and glacial advance as an aoe runic power spender.

[loanel]

I was sceptical about these changes at first but the more i think about it the better it's starting to look. All will depend on how big the actual numbers are. Obviously i'm a bit saddened by the fact that we won't be able to have two runeforges (honestly just to toy around with the new ones ill most likely have two one handers for open world), but these changes aren't as bad as they look at first glance, depending on how they are implemented.

First of all, the obliterate damage component; if that 25% increase will affect the killing machine part of the damage, then the talent is entirely different from how it was back in the cata - wod days. The fundamental problem with MOTFW earlier was that you lost mastery scaling while using a two hander; with the killing machine change that's not the case now. If the killing machine proc is calculated based off of the damage of the base part of the obliterate then we're golden for sure; if it's based on attack power then it's hard to gauge whether or not that 25% affects the killing machine part of the obliterate damage. It's the same attack so it should technically work?

The second part of the buff is even more important. If that change actually means that two handers will have MORE killing machine procs than a DVDK (they would have used a different wording if they just evened them out for the two types, like the one with runic attenuation), then it means that a somewhat different style of play would be opened up for a two hander. Scratch the breath, go inexorable assault/icy talons + murderous efficiency + frostscythe + glacial advance (razorice lasts 20 seconds, refreshes on appliance, glacial advance with decent haste has a 5 second cooldown; you can get 5 stacks on a mob in 25 seconds) + icecap. Stack haste>mastery>some crit. It might be weaker than just going breath like always, but at the very least, this playstyle seem cohesive and actually LOGICAL in its design; something that MOTFW was lacking with the stupid mastery scaling in all the earlier expansions.

Lastly, i think people are overestimating how vital the second runeforge might be at the end of it. They showed that they actually remember that runeforges exist by adding new ones, and i'd be surprised if they won't drop some more changes to balance them out more; at the end of it all i wouldn't be surprised if people actually ran razorice and the one that gives you more maximum RP for breath builds. Even currently you can run around with glacial advance to stack up the razorice stacks, which should work on certain fights. They actually showed this time that they are trying to do things, which is already better than what happened in BFA.

[Ange]

As a bonus wish list for frost, they could baseline frost scythe as an aoe builder and glacial advance as an aoe runic power spender.

I hope they kill FSc spam with overbuffing frozen pulse or doing something else. Overcapping all the time is really anoying and FSc spam makes it even worse.

Kill off Razorice, should nerf FSc usage and just buff and make alternatives usable for 2h and dw for generic ST and cleave mix.

If frost had the slower and less capped flow as unholy, it would be so much enjoyable to play. Sadly unholy is completly gone in shadowlands, even more split damage, even less impact from wounds, even more anoying GCD ussage in AoE and the worste, still forced to AotD cooldown times and is not back to what it was - a simple utility cooldown.

I hope 2h frost gets at least till viable state, I would even take it with some major buff auras to make it work for the first 1-2 tiers. If Unholy is the only real choice with the most stupid LEGION/BFA iteration, I would be really sad to see another shit DK expansion.

[RuneDK]

If for some coding reason they can't allow 2 runefrges on 2H weps, just baseline rune of razorice as a frost passive and limit runeforges to your mainhand weapon to put both weapons on an equal playing field.

I also like the idea of making KM proc off frost strike.

As a bonus wish list for frost, they could baseline frost scythe as an aoe builder and glacial advance as an aoe runic power spender.

That's the next problem with the spec. I didn't even want to start going there haha.

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I hope they kill FSc spam with overbuffing frozen pulse or doing something else. Overcapping all the time is really anoying and FSc spam makes it even worse.

Kill off Razorice, should nerf FSc usage and just buff and make alternatives usable for 2h and dw for generic ST and cleave mix.

If frost had the slower and less capped flow as unholy, it would be so much enjoyable to play. Sadly unholy is completly gone in shadowlands, even more split damage, even less impact from wounds, even more anoying GCD ussage in AoE and the worste, still forced to AotD cooldown times and is not back to what it was - a simple utility cooldown.

I hope 2h frost gets at least till viable state, I would even take it with some major buff auras to make it work for the first 1-2 tiers. If Unholy is the only real choice with the most stupid LEGION/BFA iteration, I would be really sad to see another shit DK expansion.

I miss when unholy was more about disease management...Original Festerblight was the best iteration of unholy imho. Problem with unholy looking grave again is they will probably focus on reworking unholy again instead of frost which needs serious mechanical changes. Unholy had numerous reworks...theyve been trying to force wotlk systems to work in a post-wotlk world and it just doesn't work anymore. The entire class may actually need an entire revamp.

[schwank05]

We also need Frost DK dw tanking to be a thing again.
That shit was cool.

Blood DPS is all I ask, I miss it to the point of not liking my DK since they killed it.

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That's the next problem with the spec. I didn't even want to start going there haha.

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I miss when unholy was more about disease management...Original Festerblight was the best iteration of unholy imho. Problem with unholy looking grave again is they will probably focus on reworking unholy again instead of frost which needs serious mechanical changes. Unholy had numerous reworks...theyve been trying to force wotlk systems to work in a post-wotlk world and it just doesn't work anymore. The entire class may actually need an entire revamp.

Yes, but rather than a Revamp How about a Revert back to WOLTK let all 3 specs tank or DPS and #MakeDKsGreatAgain