Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Thage]

I think people are misremembering Gearscore - It's a LOT worse than anything Raider.io is doing.

Agreed. GearScore actively promoted lootwhoring on items you would never reasonably use, simply because it inflated your score to 'acceptable' numbers. I was in several ICC10 pugs where someone snuck in using caster trinkets on their rogue and other such shenanigans because the raid leader arbitrarily decided ICC10 Normal required ICC25H gear. If it were about optimal clear times, the raid lead wouldn't have just been inviting anyone who had sufficient GS, they would still be checking Armory pages and inspecting ingame. The raid lead was just lazy and inflated the required GearScore because that was 'in' at the time.

GearScore just promoted lazy thinking among pug leads, a pandemic that still affects the game to this day with day-one pugs requiring AOTC and an item level only found in previous-tier Mythic. People still aren't inspected to ensure that item level comes from good gearing, or that they didn't just floor-tank the achievement. That is one aspect r.io helps, as much as pugs sometimes/often abuse the system to block people learning the fights out of Normal pugs (YMMV).

[Twdft]

M+ was intentionally not on the LFD queue for esports reasons. They're trying to make M+ celebrities from premade teams; this can't happen if the groups are randomised

If MDI fails, which I think it will, the gatekeeping will force Blizzard's hand.

Do you actually play m+ though? I don't think you do. You have a seriously warped perception of its difficulty and purpose.

[Saltysquidoon]

M+ was intentionally not on the LFD queue for esports reasons. They're trying to make M+ celebrities from premade teams; this can't happen if the groups are randomised

If MDI fails, which I think it will, the gatekeeping will force Blizzard's hand.

Wut? M+ was introduced without a queuing system because we saw in cata pugs can't even clear heroic when they're expected to actually know mechanics and dps at the same time. It's like blizzard has stated multiple times being autoqueued for content creates an expectation in a player's mind they will be able to clear the content, which is not what M+ is about its about.

Also, Blizzard has stated multiple times M+ is one of the most successful systems they've ever released, your pointless doomsaying and butthurt about esports out of left field is entirely unfounded.

[Wuusah]

Ah, moving the goalposts. I like playing the "draw the arbitrary line" game:





Explicitly false, even taking into account your reason: mob difficulty scales in Normal to level, and Heroic drops better loot.


It does.




All group content existed initially without a queuing system. PvP Battlegrounds required manual groups. Dungeons required manual groups. Raids required manual groups. Arena required manual groups. After enough time, community gatekeeping mandated automated systems.

M+ was intentionally not on the LFD queue for esports reasons. They're trying to make M+ celebrities from premade teams; this can't happen if the groups are randomised

If MDI fails, which I think it will, the gatekeeping will force Blizzard's hand.

1. I was never moving the goalposts. I said "There is a reason why only the lowest of the lowest of difficulties are done via LFD/LFR." DIFFICULTIES. I didn't say the lowest difficulty.
2. Why are you changing quotes into things I never said?
3. All group content existed initially without a queuing system. Then they made LFD. Then they made LFR. Then they made harder dungeons that you can't queue for.
4. MDI is not the reason why M+ is not in LFD... How freaking delusional are you...

You know what would happen if M+ was in LFD? Only bad players would use it. The good ones would still go in premade. Because nobody wants some shitter destroy their run.

[VinceVega]

All group content existed initially without a queuing system. PvP Battlegrounds required manual groups. Dungeons required manual groups. Raids required manual groups. Arena required manual groups. After enough time, community gatekeeping mandated automated systems.

M+ was intentionally not on the LFD queue for esports reasons. They're trying to make M+ celebrities from premade teams; this can't happen if the groups are randomised

If MDI fails, which I think it will, the gatekeeping will force Blizzard's hand.

I don't think MDI has anything to do with being able to queue fpr Mythic+

It is just not doable within a random group. DIfficulty is just to high with to much coordination needed.
Granted until +5 probably not. This could work at the end of an expansion when everyone is geared as hell.

It is annoying enough to get even one random who you don't know if he can pull his weight other than knowing his raider.io.
If you only have randoms in a key above 5 it will be HORRIBLE i guarantee it. Not because anyone is bad or anything. Because there will be no communications whatsoever.

[Kaver]

M+ was intentionally not on the LFD queue for esports reasons. They're trying to make M+ celebrities from premade teams; this can't happen if the groups are randomised.

Yes it can still happen. You can still make premade groups for normal and heroic dungeons even though these are in the LFD.

If Blizzard chose to put M+ in the LFD they would need to make an in-game ranked system similar to what they have in LoL and CSGO. They cant just group people 100% randomly for difficult content.

[Ssateneth]

Theres nothing wrong with r.io (or gearscore for that matter). The problem lies with the community. They have a mindset to require a MUCH higher bar than what is actually required to clear the content. I think having more information about a player is good. But misusing that information to create an artificially higher bar than what's needed in the name of "i just want a fast clear" is dumb. Sure, its a valid explanation, but you are filtered out of 99% of groups for that reason, it gets tiring. It becomes impossible to improve your performance metric, because nobody wants you unless you're already 3 levels higher than what the content actually calls for. Catch 22.

Which is when we go back to the ol' reliable answer of this problem. "Make your own group". That way you can dictate your OWN rules about who can join and who can't.

[Wuusah]

Theres nothing wrong with r.io (or gearscore for that matter). The problem lies with the community. They have a mindset to require a MUCH higher bar than what is actually required to clear the content. I think having more information about a player is good. But misusing that information to create an artificially higher bar than what's needed in the name of "i just want a fast clear" is dumb. Sure, its a valid explanation, but you are filtered out of 99% of groups for that reason, it gets tiring. It becomes impossible to improve your performance metric, because nobody wants you unless you're already 3 levels higher than what the content actually calls for. Catch 22.

Which is when we go back to the ol' reliable answer of this problem. "Make your own group". That way you can dictate your OWN rules about who can join and who can't.

This is really only the case with dps. And it is the case because there are too many dps players. Everyone who ever started a group knows that. You start a +15 and five seconds later a dozen dps are in your list. People don’t just require players who are overqualified. When dozens of overqualified players want to be invited, then why should anyone pick the “barely qualified” ones?

[Alteiry]

I still have rage-inducing memories about people in Wrath asking for 6000+ gearscore, or ICC 25 HC equivalent gear (~277 item levels), to do Archavon the Stone Watcher, the first boss of VoA that dropped what was at the time item level 200/213 items, equivalent to HC Dungeon/10man Tier 7 raid loot and 25man Tier 7 raid loot, respectively.

[Azharok]

It does.

It most certainly does not.

[Wuusah]

I still have rage-inducing memories about people in Wrath asking for 6000+ gearscore, or ICC 25 HC equivalent gear (~277 item levels), to do Archavon the Stone Watcher, the first boss of VoA that dropped what was at the time item level 200/213 items, equivalent to HC Dungeon/10man Tier 7 raid loot and 25man Tier 7 raid loot, respectively.

Why is it rage inducing if people are asking for some ridiculous high standards? You don’t have to join them. You are not entitled to a raid spot in their group.

Why do you care what others do in the game???

[Kaver]

It does.

I think this is the point where people realize that you have absolutely not idea what you’re talking about.

There is a good reason why people like you and people like me should never be put in a group together. If some random system would place us in the same group it would be a disaster.

[Wuusah]

i have done almost all dungeons on +15 in time with random groups...

- - - Updated - - -



i usually get easy invites to +15 when i link my past run details log to the leader... as enhancement shaman...

No, you have done +15s with pugs. You didn’t just roll the dice and picked whoever as teammates and then tried your luck in a +15. You beat +15s because the group leader looked at players “performance and achievements” aka rio

[VinceVega]

i have done almost all dungeons on +15 in time with random groups...

- - - Updated - - -



i usually get easy invites to +15 when i link my past run details log to the leader... as enhancement shaman... usually i end up doing the most damage by a good 50% ahead of the others... even though the other people have similar gear... sometimes i do more damage than the rest of the group together... most marked difference i have seen so far is doing 130k on gorak tul and others in the group was at 40k...

Not talking about Pugs. Talking about being queued wiothout influence about with whom you are matched. I don't think you did the 15 by just inviting the first 4 people who applied.

[Wuusah]

pug is a random groups... i dont know the people...

Pugs are not random. The people in there are “randoms” to you but the group is not random. It is not a random group when you inspect and handpick players

[ClassicPeon]

LFD tool.

You have to have a M+ key in order to queue, but M+0 would also be on the LFD tool. You would be grouped with other players either on or one step below your key range. This would be based off the loot that drops out of the M+ chest as below:

*M+2 and 3 (435)
*M+4 (440)
*M+5 and 6 (445)
*M+7 (450)
*M+8, 9, and 10 (455)
*M+11, 12, and 13 (460)
*M+14 and 15 (465)

If a key would be upgraded/depleted, all of the group's keys are upgraded/depleted.

For example, if you had an M+7 key, and joined LFM+, you would be put into one of the following groups:

*Your or another player's M+7 key, with players with M+5 through M+7 keys
*Another player's M+9 key, with players with M+7 through M+10 keys

This is the absolute - by far - worst suggestion i think i've ever heard on MMO-C.

And that says a lot.

Seriously. What would make anyone think that, not even giving incentive but, directly forcing people into random pugs(not the same as a pug) for end game content is a good idea oO

[VinceVega]

i queued for groups...

Same difference... seriously you know what i mean...

[Xe4ro]

Thats why blizz baked gearscore in the game.

Gearscore is not the same as item level. Ilvl did technically existed since classic as it was the "hidden" item budget. You needed addons to actually see it though. Gearscore, as the name says, tried to put a score on your items. The number you got was neither your total item level or average item level. Obviously it was tied to item lvl but it is not the same.

You could see the average item level with addons during that time already, with Examiner for instance.

[Firebert]

The highest difficulty is not runnable via lfr/lfd.

It used to be (Heroic Dungeons in WotLK). There's more precedent for LFM+ than not, in my opinion.

And just because someone got a 15 key it doesn't mean he's able to run this dungeon level.

...yes it does.

Do you actually play m+ though?

I smash some M+10s every now and then.

M+ was introduced without a queuing system because [...] cata pugs [...]

Mythic mode was added in WoD for dungeons. M+ was added at the beginning of Legion. This has literally nothing to do with PuG completion rate in Cataclysm. If it did, we would see solutions within the expansion (we did; nerfs) or the following expansion (we didn't).

It's like blizzard has stated multiple times being auto[-]queued for content creates an expectation in a player's mind they will be able to clear the content, which is not what M+ is about its about.

That's a balancing problem, not a community problem.

"There is a reason why only the lowest of the lowest of difficulties are done via LFD/LFR."

Heroic is higher than Normal, hence can't be "the lowest of the lowest of difficulties".

2. Why are you changing quotes into things I never said?

They are all identically valid statements based upon the arbitrary line drawn by you upon where "the lowest difficulty" is. I just refuse to draw the line.

3. All group content existed initially without a queuing system. Then they made LFD. Then they made LFR. Then they made harder dungeons that you can't queue for.

Exactly! Next logical step: extending the queue system.

If you only have randoms in a key above 5 it will be HORRIBLE i guarantee it.

I don't have problems in my M+10s with randoms with acceptable item levels. It may be true that Corruptions or the additional unbalanced systems may be making the dungeon "easier than intended"; that's a balancing problem more than anything else.

If Blizzard chose to put M+ in the LFD they would need to make an in-game ranked system similar to what they have in LoL and CSGO. They cant just group people 100% randomly for difficult content.

I identified a way to do this in my initial post in the thread.

I think this is the point where people realize that you have absolutely no[] idea what you’re talking about.

If you don't understand, ask questions and I can explain.

- - - Updated - - -

LFR/LFD were made because realms died, they were the first possibility to play cross realm.

Not true; PvP battlegroups were the first cross-realm activity.

[Wuusah]

It used to be (Heroic Dungeons in WotLK). There's more precedent for LFM+ than not, in my opinion.

Are you seriously comparing wotlk heroics with mythic+? Are you insane?

Exactly! Next logical step: extending the queue system.

No, it's not. You are literally the only person who thinks this.

I don't have problems in my M+10s with randoms with acceptable item levels. It may be true that Corruptions or the additional unbalanced systems may be making the dungeon "easier than intended"; that's a balancing problem more than anything else.

You are not playing in random groups. Your +10s are not done with random players. Those players in your groups are always handpicked by the group leader. They are not randomly picked. The quality of your groups would be significantly lower if people could just press a button and got into a random group. The last few years have literally proven that.


This is my last comment to you because at this point I'm convinced you are just trolling around. Nobody is that ignorant.
Infracted