Maldraxxus and Necromancy

[WaltherLeopold]

I think, being based in Northrend which is apparently where the veil between Azeroth and the Shadowlands is weakest, the Nerubians likely tapped into the Shadowlands somehow and mimicked what they found.

This would explain why the Nerubians seemingly abandoned their religion(IE worshipping Yogg-Sauron) after some time in Northrend, as they found a new one with the Shadowlands. Kind of interesting that they went from being children of "the old god of Death" to venerating the plane of death itself.

There's 0 basis for this anywhere in the lore.

[Wangming]

Well the original meaning of necromancy is to use the spirits of the dead for divination. Hence the mancy part. The new meaning created by neckbeards with no sense of linguistics is: Dark wizard who summons undead warriors.

Neither of these makes any lick of sense in the underworld. Also why does the underworld need a huge fucking army again? Does it get attacked that often?


This just seems like a desperate move to make the Shadowlands more relevant.

[Aucald]

Well the original meaning of necromancy is to use the spirits of the dead for divination. Hence the mancy part. The new meaning created by neckbeards with no sense of linguistics is: Dark wizard who summons undead warriors.

Neither of these makes any lick of sense in the underworld. Also why does the underworld need a huge fucking army again? Does it get attacked that often?

This just seems like a desperate move to make the Shadowlands more relevant.

"Necromancy" being the term for magic-users who truck in death magic is a pretty old concept, far older than WoW. Sauron was called "The Necromancer" in the original publication of The Hobbit, back in 1937 - and he had nothing at all to do with divination specifically.

[shade076]

Neither of these makes any lick of sense in the underworld. Also why does the underworld need a huge fucking army again? Does it get attacked that often?


.

It would seem so, by both the light and void. As well as threats from within, a lot of bad actors going there. We know the Jailor doesn't originate there and was a massive problem before as well.

[Tharivor]

-snip-
Reconciling Shadowlands with earlier lore is an exercise in futility. Explaining the afterlife was a humongous mistake that kills the stakes not just now but for all time by nullifying death completely as a factor, especially given the mundanity of the afterlife.

Everything you wrote above basically agrees with my initial thoughts on the matter. I'm just hoping that at least they can give the retcon some depth and internal consistency: it will at least make the expansion marginally more bearable to play.

Otherwise, its very interesting to see a realm in which are preconceived connotations are thrown out the window. Light & Shadow are equal in the eyes of the Kyrians. Necromancy is a necessary thing in the shadowlands that becomes an abomination when taken to other planes of existence. But actually I think we'll learn that the shadowlands are entirely an abomination: Souls are simply supposed to naturally return to the twisting nether as we were told initially: Kyrians have to ferry them personally seems unnatural, and souls left behind become scourge: Azeroth being cut off from any kind of natural cycle. Sylvanas might be correct: The World is a Prison.

Throwing away preconceived notions just for the sake of it is silly though. The Light and Shadow thing is a perfect example: we've seen both of them heavily involved in the fate of souls in Azeroth, yet all that has gone out of the window. I'm not sure how my light-worshipping characters are supposed to keep their faith knowing now that all the spiel about having rest in the Light is a big lie and that they will inevitably abandon the worship of the Light after they die anyway.

-snip-
TL;DR in the physical universe Necromancy is a perversion of life and spirit, whereas in the Shadowlands Necromancy is more akin to basic surgery.

Thanks for this. So basically Necromancy is just Shadowlands war-magic used for purely pragmatic purposes by the Necrolords that only becomes unnatural and perverse when used in the physical universe where it was never supposed to be used? I guess I can roll with that; I suppose the Scourge was only ever a big army anyway.

The only thing thats still bothering me is the opposition between the Light and Necromancy we see on Azeroth. Under the old lore it was fairly simple: Necromancy drew on shadow magic and defiled the graves of the dead, while the Light obviously opposed the Shadow and wanted to allow faithful souls to pass into their eternal rest in the Light. Yet if necromancy is at best a neutral force unrelated to the Shadow, and in fact most souls will pass out of the Light's reach anyway, why does the Light care? Surely in fact it would be in their interest to openly advocate the raising of Light-undead like Calia than have this strange obsession with sending souls safely to the Shadowlands, which is a goal that the new lore associates with the Light-hostile (or at least Light-indifferent) Kyrians?

[Aucald]

The only thing thats still bothering me is the opposition between the Light and Necromancy we see on Azeroth. Under the old lore it was fairly simple: Necromancy drew on shadow magic and defiled the graves of the dead, while the Light obviously opposed the Shadow and wanted to allow faithful souls to pass into their eternal rest in the Light. Yet if necromancy is at best a neutral force unrelated to the Shadow, and in fact most souls will pass out of the Light's reach anyway, why does the Light care? Surely in fact it would be in their interest to openly advocate the raising of Light-undead like Calia than have this strange obsession with sending souls safely to the Shadowlands, which is a goal that the new lore associates with the Light-hostile (or at least Light-indifferent) Kyrians?

It's not directly spoken to, but there's no mention of Shadow magic being used in Maldraxxus to perform Necromancy. This might be a difference between the nature of the two realms (the Shadowlands and the physical universe), in that our universe requires the application of Shadow to achieve true undeath, whereas in the Shadowlands it does not. In the Shadowlands the practitioners of Necromancy seem to use pure Death magic or anima-related (Spirit, I assume) powers to achieve the creation of what we think of as undead constructs, forms, and effects. In point of fact, most of the denizens of the Shadowlands seem to look down on both the Void and the Light as conceptual forces. Maldraxxus specifically has gone to war with the Void Lords more than once, Bastion has also been attacked by the Void, and Revendreth has been invaded by the Light (leading to the creation of the Ember Ward). The Necrolords seem to rely on Death and Spirit magic to achieve their Necromancy, not bothering with Shadow, Light, or any other power sources.

[Oneirophobia]

There's 0 basis for this anywhere in the lore.

Yes, but you wrote:

Are you saying that the nerubian society saw an architectural revolution in tandem with them being annihilated by the scourge and, so subsequently rearranged and remodelled their entire civilization to match maldraxxus architecture?

Which is a long-winded way to say "this doesn't make any sense it's impossible REEE BLIZZARD WRITERSSS"

I'm just offering one of many different ways the Nerubians basing their architecture off Maldraxxus isn't some terrific insult to the lore can that never be explained. A lot of complaints about the lore basically boil down to "this hasn't been completely explained to me and I'm unable to come up with a way to explain it, so I am therefore angry."

[WaltherLeopold]

Which is a long-winded way to say "this doesn't make any sense it's impossible REEE BLIZZARD WRITERSSS"

I'm just offering one of many different ways the Nerubians basing their architecture off Maldraxxus isn't some terrific insult to the lore can never be explained.

Well they said that nerubian architecture is linked to maldraxxus architecture because nerubians were one of the original discoverers of necromancy which has no basis in lore.

You stating conjecture doesn't mean anything.

[Oneirophobia]

Well they said that nerubian architecture is linked to maldraxxus architecture because nerubians were one of the original discoverers of necromancy which has no basis in lore.

You stating conjecture doesn't mean anything.

They who, Ersula?

They wrote,

]It's not exactly a ret-con for the Scourge architecture to be based on Nerubian architecture, then reveal that it originates in the shadowlands, as Nerubians were already almost completely taken over by the scourge when we first encounter them.

Thats what you responded to. I don't see any mention of Nerubians being the first necromancers.

[Wangming]

"Necromancy" being the term for magic-users who truck in death magic is a pretty old concept, far older than WoW. Sauron was called "The Necromancer" in the original publication of The Hobbit, back in 1937 - and he had nothing at all to do with divination specifically.

Sorry but neckbeards doesn't always mean wow fans or devs. Neckbeard is a pretty old concept even if they were not called WoW fans back then.
Also who is to say Sauron didn't use the original form of necromancy. Say what you will about Tolkien, but he was a linguist after all. And we never really saw Sauron in action.

[Aucald]

Sorry but neckbeards doesn't always mean wow fans or devs. Neckbeard is a pretty old concept even if they were not called WoW fans back then.
Also who is to say Sauron didn't use the original form of necromancy. Say what you will about Tolkien, but he was a linguist after all. And we never really saw Sauron in action.

You see plenty of action from Sauron in the Silmarillion - he's a peerless smith, able to cast a powerful and compelling glamour that sways the heart and mind, a shapeshifter, and has access to similar magical powers as Gandalf and Saruman (being of the same order of being as they are, one of the Maiar). None of those powers involve death or divination in any real sense. The closest Sauron actually has to death magic is his control over the ringwraiths, but that's less power over spirit beings and more power over the mind-controlling rings they still bear as wraiths.

[WaltherLeopold]

Thats what you responded to. I don't see any mention of Nerubians being the first necromancers.

You must not be looking very hard then;

Annihilated isn't the right word. And we know Nerubians are also one of the first cultures to experiment with necromancy, so instead we can infer it was a slow & gradual assimilation. They "peered behind the veil" so to speak.

Which is just headcanon, hence "no basis in lore"

[KainneAbsolute]

It needs and explanation unless each covenant has a mechanism to allow the return of souls to the living world:

- Bastion: your only way to return is as spirit healer.
- Night Fae: if you are important, you reborn.
- Venthyr: you do not return.
- Necrolords: you return as an undead.

It is the only way I can fit the concept of Necrolords, Scourge and Necromancy. Maybe the Necrolords enjoy battle so much, that they developed necromancy as a way to enter the world of the living and start a conquest there. Or maybe dissident groups who hate to be in Shadowlands.

[Tharivor]

It's not directly spoken to, but there's no mention of Shadow magic being used in Maldraxxus to perform Necromancy. This might be a difference between the nature of the two realms (the Shadowlands and the physical universe), in that our universe requires the application of Shadow to achieve true undeath, whereas in the Shadowlands it does not. In the Shadowlands the practitioners of Necromancy seem to use pure Death magic or anima-related (Spirit, I assume) powers to achieve the creation of what we think of as undead constructs, forms, and effects. In point of fact, most of the denizens of the Shadowlands seem to look down on both the Void and the Light as conceptual forces. Maldraxxus specifically has gone to war with the Void Lords more than once, Bastion has also been attacked by the Void, and Revendreth has been invaded by the Light (leading to the creation of the Ember Ward). The Necrolords seem to rely on Death and Spirit magic to achieve their Necromancy, not bothering with Shadow, Light, or any other power sources.

What even is "Death magic" anyway? Its only mentioned in-game as the source of the Drusts magic, but that is quite different from what we see in Maldraxxus. Considering that many of the Necrolords covenant abilities inflict Shadow damage I'm inclined to believe that they really just wield a type of highly specialised Shadow magic, unless there is anything specific in-game that excludes this. After all its never been required to believe in the Void to utilise the shadow.

[Aucald]

What even is "Death magic" anyway? Its only mentioned in-game as the source of the Drusts magic, but that is quite different from what we see in Maldraxxus. Considering that many of the Necrolords covenant abilities inflict Shadow damage I'm inclined to believe that they really just wield a type of highly specialised Shadow magic, unless there is anything specific in-game that excludes this. After all its never been required to believe in the Void to utilise the shadow.

Shadow damage is a game system mechanic, whereas Shadow magic and Death magic are two of the six different primordial energies of the Warcraft metacosm as shown here:



Death is not Shadow in terms of the lore.

[huth]

Shadow damage is a game system mechanic, whereas Shadow magic and Death magic are two of the six different primordial energies of the Warcraft metacosm as shown here:

[IMG]

Death is not Shadow in terms of the lore.

I think that's part of the reason they tend to go with Light and Void instead of Shadow nowadays. Still, maybe they need to rename the schools, possibly even on a per-class basis. Wouldn't mind Druids getting Solar and Lunar so people stop using that as evidence Druids use Arcane magic, and it would fit better with Astral.

[cparle87]

It's a mess. Liches were originally the orcs with Ner'zhul pushed into bodies, hence their very much non-human skulls, Kel'thuzad aside. The Scourge architecture was based on nerubian architecture. Undeath, as you point out, was the imperfect alignment of the soul to the body, which had moral/emotional costs attached.

Now Liches look like that in Maldraxxus too and the architecture is from there, and they have the tusks and nerubian look for some reason anyway. Despite being entirely astral beings that can shape whatever form they want, including recoloured living ones, like Vashj choosing to go from night elf to naga, they are inexplicably rotten and decayed. I'm unsure if they're even considered undead, since undeath refers to a soul outside the afterlife inhabiting its body outside the order of things. Hell, I'm not sure how undeath works in the first place - how long does it take a soul to reach the Shadowlands? How come Uther and company weren't members of the Blue Man Group when they appeared in Legion? What about the various undead in places like King's Rest, where they've been dead for eons? In-story I mean, obviously the real answer is because Blizzard hadn't invented them yet.

If I had to answer your question I'd say necromancy has a bad rap because undeath in the real world is unnatural in that the soul should be in the Shadowlands not there, which changes the person. Or doesn't respectively, given recent lore (?). Maldraxxus undead aren't really undead any more than people in Bastion or Ardenweald are, because they don't have bodies, they just have shaped something for their souls to inhabit in the afterlife, the fusion of which is perfect, hence why they're unchanged. They just look rotting to sell Scourge nostalgia because they're cosplayers and like looking undead for intimidation.

Reconciling Shadowlands with earlier lore is an exercise in futility. Explaining the afterlife was a humongous mistake that kills the stakes not just now but for all time by nullifying death completely as a factor, especially given the mundanity of the afterlife.

Gotta correct you in a few places. The orc souls placed in bodies were the death knights, not liches. Some of those death knights were with Ner'zhul when Kil'jaeden caught him and were transformed into liches to keep serving him when he was forcible made the first Lich King. Other liches are simply powerful mages or necromancers who became powerful undead either by being raised or through ritual. And as we now know Kil'jaeden was quite aware of the Shadowlands which explains why the liches he was responsible for resemble the ones in Maldraxxus.

As for your next point, remember that nerubians got the architecture from the northrend tol'vir they slaughtered and appropriated it. Who were made the Titans. Who also have a connection to the Shadowlands.

[huth]

As for your next point, remember that nerubians got the architecture from the northrend tol'vir they slaughtered and appropriated it. Who were made the Titans. Who also have a connection to the Shadowlands.

I haven't seen any hints at the Titans having a connection. Besides, Nerubian architecture doesn't that much look like Maldraxxian.

The Helm allowing glimpses into the Shadowlands explains where Arthas/LK got the ideas from, though.

[Soon-TM]

- Venthyr: you do not return.

I was under the impression that Venthyr lets you off the hook if you are reedemable - otherwise you are sent straight to the Maw, at least under normal conditions

[cparle87]

I haven't seen any hints at the Titans having a connection. Besides, Nerubian architecture doesn't that much look like Maldraxxian.

The Helm allowing glimpses into the Shadowlands explains where Arthas/LK got the ideas from, though.

We were talking architecture. Scourge took it from nerubians, who took it from tol'vir, who were made by the Titans. Scourge later adapted it according to Arthas' visions of the Shadowlands. It was revealed that Kil'jaeden visited the Shadowlands and that was where he created Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination.