Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[Shinrael]

The thing is that Blizzard will acknowledge the ones who make a fuss the most. If they see subs dropping there's an even greater incentive.
And if you think a silent majority is one side or the other, all i can say is that it's like voting, if you don't vote, you're not part of the decision.
In wow's case you can vote even after this is live, so it depends how satisfied/dissatisfied one another is.

So i guess... when the covenant system is going to be live, we'll see which part is more vocal.

Then you have to "vote" with an in-game system that actively involves all players, not use an "off road" website which majority of players never visit as a meter.

[Krakan]

I suppose it all comes down to how "big" the population of high achievers (early CE, Gladiators and Giga key pushers) is. And if those same people compete in opposing content with regards to covenants.

If the raiderio number is anything to go by there are 4,5 million toons (not players) that have stepped foot in M+, the 1% of M+ is less than 50k players (give or take). Should a whole system be changed for those 1% ? Disregarding the "trickle down effect" that has been debated to death.

I'm mainly arguing the necessacity of 100% optimised play in all forms of content rather than "the community will demand XYZ when doing ABC content". I don't think specialisation (with regards to M+/Raids/PvP) is a bad thing. That remains my opinion. If they unlock covenants, we'll all just swap stuff around depending on content, with no second thought about it. Like we've done since TBC with easier respecs. (Might have been a later xpac, I don't remember know). But I still feel that there is a disconnect from the "casual" crowd (and by that I mean people that don't raid past HC, and are in essence average in all forms of content) about what it takes for CE raiders and Gladiators to accomplish what they do, and that somehow copy/pasting their loadouts will carry them more than actually taking the time to learn the spec and press buttons in the correct order.

But as per your personnal experience, nothing is really preventing you from picking the raiding covenant, get CE, then grind out the pvp one, and go back and forth in this manner between patches. Not saying it a good solution, and I guess it would largely depend on the actual time it would take.

Blizz is making changes on a daily basis, we can only hope number crunchers manage to cypher through all of this before release so everyone has a clue to where they should go. I'm not denying that we can't "choose" whatever in this game anymore, hasn't been the case since TBC. But it would be nice if blizz managed to make stuff "good" and "better" and not just "this is the only thing you'll ever use cauz the rest is trash".

I guess the take away is : you don't need to hyper-optimise to complete all forms of content UNLESS you want to be first.

Time is my enemy. When a tier ends most guilds don't really do dormant we switch over to sale runs to fund the next tier of progression ( I don't know how people farm gold outside selling carries now if I'm honest). This requires the same level of optimization. Add to that how pvp is a massive arms race at higher rankings and you can see my displeasure.

I dislike any system that seems to encourage grinding. I won't claim to know what the majority of the player base wants I know I just look back fondly on pre legion content where all you had to do was gear.

[Geckoo]

Take example from me. I don't give a single flying fuck about how covenants will be switched and for sure I would benefit from having them hotswappable.
But I do not want that simply because I do understand that for others, having them like talent row basically destroys entire feature making them meaningless.

Having them locked is destroying the feature for others, in fact, the hype for the expansion has been overshadowed by how this particular feature works since Blizzcon. So it really begs the question, is this system worth it? if you have locked covenants you destroy the feature for some players, if you have unlocked covenants you destroy the feature for other players. In all this years i haven't seen a single feature that could be as divisive as covenants are and with the potential to ruin the experience as covenants do.

Truth is that if back at Blizzcon they had announced a new talent row for each class and no powers attached to covenants, right now you won't have a single thread of players arguing about how those new talents should be locked to your covenant choice.

[Rayzen17]

Dude, people will check class, ilvl and rio. Just like now nobody checks corruptions essences and azerite traits which combined can be like 20-30% of your dps.
Not to mention difference between mediocre and very good player is alone about 50% (depending on specs).
Fight rng can easily screw you for like 30%.




You are another example of player that has horizon of 1 degree. It does involve practically all players.
Just because you cannot imagine how others value things in game it doesn't mean having hotswappable covenants "doesn't involve them".

Take example from me. I don't give a single flying fuck about how covenants will be switched and for sure I would benefit from having them hotswappable.
But I do not want that simply because I do understand that for others, having them like talent row basically destroys entire feature making them meaningless.

There's a difference between "rpg elements" and actual gameplay. If you can't see which is more important, then that's your problem.
RPG takes a backseat to gameplay usually.

[Popokolara]

Having them locked is destroying the feature for others, in fact, the hype for the expansion has been overshadowed by how this particular feature works since Blizzcon. So it really begs the question, is this system worth it? if you have locked covenants you destroy the feature for some players, if you have unlocked covenants you destroy the feature for other players. In all this years i haven't seen a single feature that could be as divisive as covenants are and with the potential to ruin the experience as covenants do.

Truth is that if back at Blizzcon they had announced a new talent row for each class and no powers attached to covenants, right now you won't have a single thread of players arguing about how those new talents should be locked to your covenant choice.

i still havent found a single person explaining how covenants without a lockdown are meaningless.
You can a) optimise every fight and b) you can optimise with a lockdown meaning you are forced to do some fights without optimising.
~Why is this some kind of divine gameplay virtue that we should aspire to? Why covenants selection and usage only has meaning if there is this " you optimise one out of 4" and not you can optimise all, you still need to play proper.

I dont care for myself a lot, i will do what in can to help my guild but i see zero actual value. Its like the flying thing, if you dont have flying you are forced to explore the map and find pathways, its a little trick to get you to see the zone, but the real problem with not seeing the zone up close if you had flying is you dont have a reason to explore it, so its a bandaid fix via uncomfrtable design.

[Dismayxz]

fun fact: casuals outnumber the vocal minority (hence minority). Blizzard will always cater to the largest portion of people giving them money.

right or wrong, its how the world works.

Fun fact: Yeah, and most of the human population is a bunch of sheep. No different with casuals. It's great that they are the majority, but when most of the majority only follows the information and ideals offered by the vocal minority, the problems of the vocal minority hardly seem that insignificant, mh? Let's not start talking about the like 2-8 hour a week casuals who barely have time to actually play the game, but somehow think they have a right to say what direction the game should go, because they pay for being able to play barely an inch of the content available.

TL;DR: You don't design around the braindead masses, you design in a way that fools the braindead masses into believing they are valued, if we want to maximize the whole money statement here.
_____

Now, that aside, I'm sure the usual MMO-Champion pleb wants to come out of the woodwork and talk about how this is psychologically twisted or otherwise, time to be on the topic:

No, the game should not be 'ruined' in pursuit of utopian competitive equality. Mainly, because utopian competitive equality does not exist and will never ever exist. Can you get a close spread? Yes. Would they need to homogenize to achieve this? Yes. Does that suddenly hurt class fantasy or any holier than thou RPG feel? Not really no, there are still visuals and a rotational theme you can use to apply a certain fantasy of play and even homogenized abilities can still be designed with flavorful differences that keep the core concept of the functionality.

And in that world, sure, yeah. Go for the balance over the RPG aspect or go for "ruining the game". It's such a ridiculous notion to begin with, when there are multiple similarly effective ways to represent an RPG aspect or a certain fantasy behind what's going on, as stated above. And those are arguably far more easily sellable to the dull minded mass AND more in-line with the MMORPG core philosophy.

[Raelbo]

No amount of skill at the game can overcome missing ap,essences or corruptions as well.

Without parameters or context this statement is utterly senseless.

One's performance is a combination of skill and equipment. And while there may be limits regarding how much being better skilled than another player can compensate for having worse gear, it can compensate for some.

Besides which, if you're talking about real scenarios, someone who is awesome at the game isn't going to have no AP, essences or corruptions unless they've gone out of their way to nerf themselves (maybe in order to try and prove some asinine point on MMO-C).

Simply put, if a good player is putting a moderate amount of effort into the game, they might not have the best corruptions, or the most AP, or all the essences, but they will have enough that they will be able to easily outperform a shit player, no matter how much time said shit player spends grinding.

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Bullshit.

Right back at you.

I don't even need to stretch for an example almost all essences require massive amounts of time you can't bypass.

Most of the essences are a by-product of just playing the game and doing stuff you'd be doing anyway. You don't even need all of them, you only need 4. And rank 4 (where most of the real "work" is) is purely cosmetic and provides zero performance benefit.

This put in the hard hours bs didn't exist in the past. You just sucked and thought it did since you got filtered by tiers.

That fact that you have to resort to telling me that I sucked demonstrates that you have no actual argument.

[Specialka]

Without parameters or context this statement is utterly senseless.

One's performance is a combination of skill and equipment. And while there may be limits regarding how much being better skilled than another player can compensate for having worse gear, it can compensate for some.

Besides which, if you're talking about real scenarios, someone who is awesome at the game isn't going to have no AP, essences or corruptions unless they've gone out of their way to nerf themselves (maybe in order to try and prove some asinine point on MMO-C).

Simply put, if a good player is putting a moderate amount of effort into the game, they might not have the best corruptions, or the most AP, or all the essences, but they will have enough that they will be able to easily outperform a shit player, no matter how much time said shit player spends grinding.

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Right back at you.



Most of the essences are a by-product of just playing the game and doing stuff you'd be doing anyway. You don't even need all of them, you only need 4. And rank 4 (where most of the real "work" is) is purely cosmetic and provides zero performance benefit.



That fact that you have to resort to telling me that I sucked demonstrates that you have no actual argument.

Mmh, Conflict and Strife is the Bis essence for most dps class and it is only available by doing pvp. Same for Blood of the enemy. So how about no ?

[Krakan]

Without parameters or context this statement is utterly senseless.

One's performance is a combination of skill and equipment. And while there may be limits regarding how much being better skilled than another player can compensate for having worse gear, it can compensate for some.

Besides which, if you're talking about real scenarios, someone who is awesome at the game isn't going to have no AP, essences or corruptions unless they've gone out of their way to nerf themselves (maybe in order to try and prove some asinine point on MMO-C).

Simply put, if a good player is putting a moderate amount of effort into the game, they might not have the best corruptions, or the most AP, or all the essences, but they will have enough that they will be able to easily outperform a shit player, no matter how much time said shit player spends grinding.

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Right back at you.



Most of the essences are a by-product of just playing the game and doing stuff you'd be doing anyway. You don't even need all of them, you only need 4. And rank 4 (where most of the real "work" is) is purely cosmetic and provides zero performance benefit.



That fact that you have to resort to telling me that I sucked demonstrates that you have no actual argument.

I don't get why people who show almost no knowledge of how the game works always get upset when called out on it. Most essences are not simply earned by playing the game but by excessively grinding something. From dailies to pvp. Well maybe excessive is the wrong word. They are excessively time gated to stretch out content.

[qwerty123456]

Good lord the amount of reaching in this post is hilarious. Do you often use strawmans?

What am I exaggerating? Do you even know what a strawman is?

Fine almost never any that mattered if you want to really split hairs. It doesn't help the point your desperately trying to make.

Look through those patch notes again there were plenty that mattered. Unless by mattered you mean going from lowest ranked to more op then any other spec then I guess you would be right.

[kaminaris]

Mmh, Conflict and Strife is the Bis essence for most dps class and it is only available by doing pvp. Same for Blood of the enemy. So how about no ?

And still people on top 10 on each boss without it so how about you count that manually and get back to us without bullshit?

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There's a difference between "rpg elements" and actual gameplay. If you can't see which is more important, then that's your problem.
RPG takes a backseat to gameplay usually.

Dude, that is prime example of narrow horizon. No, that is not "what is more important". Its just more important for you.
You literally cannot understand that there are people who don't give a flying fuck about what is important for you and value other things more.

Incapable of empathy

[Rayzen17]

And still people on top 10 on each boss without it so how about you count that manually and get back to us without bullshit?

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Dude, that is prime example of narrow horizon. No, that is not "what is more important". Its just more important for you.
You literally cannot understand that there are people who don't give a flying fuck about what is important for you and value other things more.

Incapable of empathy

Look, you can pretend that the covenants are locked and just play whatever you want. This doesn't affect your gameplay.

This does affect my gameplay, i can't pretend that the covenants are unlocked and actually switch.

Do you see the difference? Or you're just pretending you don't see it?

So don't talk to me about empathy, you just look like a hypocrite.

[alturic]

I'm still over here scratching my head with how people can't realize that in a numbers-based games, there will *always* be something that is the right choice and something that will be the wrong choice.

It's literally... math.

[Lolites]

I'm still over here scratching my head with how people can't realize that in a numbers-based games, there will *always* be something that is the right choice and something that will be the wrong choice.

It's literally... math.

people understand that there is always mathematicaly correct choice, thing is not all people base their decision on that single criterium, as there are plenty others that are more important for some people...

think bout job hunt: you have 4 positions offered to you, mathematicaly correct choice is the one with highest payment, but is it BEST choice?

[Echocho]

Look, you can pretend that the covenants are locked and just play whatever you want. This doesn't affect your gameplay.

This does affect my gameplay, i can't pretend that the covenants are unlocked and actually switch.

Do you see the difference? Or you're just pretending you don't see it?

So don't talk to me about empathy, you just look like a hypocrite.

For those that want permanent or semi permanent choices being able to swap whenever you want affect your gameplay greatly. I thought that should be obvious.

You already have a bunch of systems how to build your character for combat that cater to you, we don't have a single one. Pretty selfish dude.

[rrayy]

Nah, you guys are in the vocal minority in this case. Nobody cares if you get stuck in a covenant or not, but you seem to care that we can freely switch.
So stop being a hypocrite for a decision that doesn't involve you.

P.S. Also, your sig is cringe... like seriously.

Prove it. All you are doing is massively projecting your opinion. And I am not being a hypocrite either. Your elitist behavior is off the charts here.

[Rayzen17]

For those that want permanent or semi permanent choices being able to swap whenever you want affect your gameplay greatly. I thought that should be obvious.

You already have a bunch of systems how to build your character for combat that cater to you, we don't have a single one. Pretty selfish dude.

You have them all... just don't switch? That was hard.

[rrayy]

Look, you can pretend that the covenants are locked and just play whatever you want. This doesn't affect your gameplay.

This does affect my gameplay, i can't pretend that the covenants are unlocked and actually switch.

Do you see the difference? Or you're just pretending you don't see it?

So don't talk to me about empathy, you just look like a hypocrite.

BS. YOu don't have to be super leet to get everything done. It's your entitlement talking.

[Rayzen17]

Prove it. All you are doing is massively projecting your opinion. And I am not being a hypocrite either. Your elitist behavior is off the charts here.

Wait until the system goes live.

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BS. YOu don't have to be super leet to get everything done. It's your entitlement talking.

Let's see 2 abilities that i can use whenever i want next expac, or 8 abilities that i can switch around and use whenever i want.

Tough choice for better entertainment indeed!

[goldlock]

What am I exaggerating? Do you even know what a strawman is?



Look through those patch notes again there were plenty that mattered. Unless by mattered you mean going from lowest ranked to more op then any other spec then I guess you would be right.

That isn't how this works love. I wish it was but it isn't. You have a host of people telling you otherwise. Blizzard doesn't salvage dead specs between patches often.