Baine is the worst leader.

[qwerty123456]

Garrosh got bailed out of trouble in a side book by Baine, in terms of both his personal issues regarding his dad, Thrall etc. and his agenda, as well as the conflict he brought to the story, he was top notch. Baine and Vol'jin only exist as characters with definable personality traits, and their races as anything other than recoloured orcs in contrast with Garrosh and his orcs. As for Sylvanas, people have been free to leave the Forsaken up until the second to last book. Don't take my word for it, all you need to do is play the first few quests in Tirisfal that tell you outright that you can join the Forsaken or go on your way.

We saved his ass in Nagrand, Borean Tundra , and Twilight Highlands. I'm sure there are other cases but those are just what I remember offhand. I haven't played a forsaken in awhile but I clearly remember them mentioning killing anyone who doesn't sign up.

Going back to Baine, the game constantly tells you what a great dude he is, with every character going at length about how he is all that is good in the Horde. They fail spectacularly at presenting this, to be sure, but that is their intention. The game doesn't reference any of the things I or others have in this thread. It's a failure of execution, not an absence of intent. To give you a comprehensible comparison - see how Grom is meant to be redeemed and heroic at the end of WoD apropo of nothing, the story intent is to cast him as a hero, but we the audience can see that he's still a bad dude on the basis of his record. Intent is not execution.

You may be right I dunno I don't really remember any dialogue in game dick riding him. I may have just missed it.

The opposite - Anduin and everyone Alliance-side act like they know they're in the video game and it can only end in a copout, despite as far as they're being concerned they can see the Horde being universally hostile to them. Jaina's turn in Thros to deciding her dad was wrong after Brennadam is pure absurdity, and so is Baine being a reason that Anduin spares the Horde, considering Baine did fuck all to interfere with Sylvanas until patches later. Not even the game's intent is that.

Anduin doesn't know what Baine did or didnt do. He does know he is seemingly a good person and a member of the Horde. Then he also then has Saurfang show that even more Horde aren't just evil monsters. Since I don't think either of us are going to change our mind we will just have to agree to disagree.

They do take place in the same universe. I don't see how that has any relevance to anything - they didn't intend any lesson and no lesson can be gleamed from the content involved. Don't take my word for it, just read the dev statements. While WC3 was in the works WoW had the idea to still have bad orcs and playable Scourge. Everything is dynamic, their intent changes as they go.

Do you got a source?

Wrath's main selling point was obviously the Lich King, but the reason they put Garrosh back in and took the writing route is because people wanted the war back in Warcraft and were bored by the passivity of the factions in Vanilla and especially TBC. It's a meme now, but that's the general sentiment that existed at the time. Your Batman vs Joker example proves to show the same point I'm getting at - that you don't need a final victory because the conflict itself is the selling point. The temporary victory, or the victory that opens up other stories can happen. Batman can never take out the Joker, but you still have a ton of good stories tied around this and it's part of what makes the franchise what it is. Ditto, the Alliance and Horde - neither faction will ever fully destroy the other, but races can take places, lose leaders, change etc. You can destroy zones or seize cities or what have you. And unless it's something like BFA it doesn't need to be central either.

It was your Batman vs Joker example I just explained why you were wrong. And there are plenty of Batman stories where the joker dies or doesn't even exist. The Joker(or anyone in comics) can't die because of money not good story telling.

As for BFA, Blizzard successfully sold the expansion based on faction conflict. The reason it's hated was because it wasn't faction conflict - it was the game at war with itself, the story doing its best to dismantle the Alliance and Horde and the writers ultimately being halted by the game devs who luckily needed that sweet faction swap money. Consider the reaction to the BFA cinematic vs the reaction to the Burning of Teldrassil or the later Saurfang cinematics. One of these things is very popular, the others are hot garbage that wasn't liked the first time they did it in Mists, when it was done much better.

People weren't rating BFA as god tier up until the Horde starts turning on Sylvanas. And BFA cinematic reaction cause there was a tit for tat where both factions got a "win" and nobody really lost. Teldrassil pissed everyone off because most of the Horde players didn't sign up to be monsters and the Sylvanas fanatics were upset that she seemed to do it out of spite. Saurfang cinematic people hated because Sylvanas gets bullshit powers, goddess Sylvanas was tricked, Saurfang went out like a bitch, etc.... Many of the reasons are the same reason people got pissed at the Sylvanas Bolvar fight.

Do you remember any hype around fighting Deathwing? A guy who went from a complex schemer to a big dumb Godzilla in a raid full of reused assets? How much does anyone still talk about any of that vs. how much they talk about the faction parts of Cataclysm. Did anyone really like/care about the Twilight's Hammer? Who gives a bit of a shit about the Highmountain tauren? The only story there with longevity, and indeed the only faction story in Legion was Stormheim - and it's the most discussed part of it to this day. God knows no one talks about that one naga invasion or about the 4 plot coupons. Mists is gameplay-wise one of the most well-loved expansions. BFA is trash in both story and gameplay and that's because it was neither an actual faction war given the zones were entirely deprived of it and the story from not even the halfway point on was about world peace and cooperation, nor a good Old God expansion since N'zoth wasn't actually the one masterminding anything but just a dupe. Oh, and the gameplay was really bad. That last part especially.

Nobody talks about the faction shit in Cata unless its Ally being pissed all they ever get is losses or Horde Garrosh fans who try and prove he was such an amazing dude because he tossed a guy off a clifff. That "faction story" in Legion is discussed because its a who shot first moment Horde and Alliance use to try and claim their side is justified. And even then it was only used to set up the future pve and ended up otherwise meaningless faction conflict wise. Tayren players give a shit about high mountain? Did you not say before that you liked the faction conflict because it gave more lore to the races?? And I would argue the Nightborne is a thousand times more discussed than the Genn vs Sylvanas which again is because of controversies.

The zones were entirely deprived of it? Have you even played BFA dude? It's all over em lol. You could maybe argue that Voldun and the Witch one didn't have as much but to say there wasn't any is just silly.

The Argent Crusade are a stand-in for human paladins, an Alliance thing. The Death Knights supplant the blood elves and Forsaken in their own revenge plot and do it in a more boring way, since they lack much of the baggage. They provide an infinitely more shallow experience because they provide an aesthetic without history. Hamuul helping Malfurion doesn't make 4.2 any less about night elves fighting Rag any more than Thrall having a yellow tag makes him any less the Warchief of the Horde. And I don't know about you, but I remember how much shit Jaina rightfully got for being a peacenik back in Wrath. People were bored to tears of this kind of thing. Thrall himself was coasting by on nostalgia - there's a reason that from Cata onwards he's been widely disliked and his reappearance in BFA was greeted with groans for the most part.

In your opinion.

The faction war was the B-plot of the entire expansion. Grizzly Hills, Icecrown, Borean Tundra, Howling Fjord - when you're not fighting Scourge or Loken, you're fighting the guys wearing the wrong colour. That was even one of the selling points along with the Lich King. As for Cataclysm, yes, the winners were predetermined - as it always has been with every conflict. More so than that, the stories this switch was used to tell were in general very good Horde-side. But even that is no longer a relevant concern, given how you can now do asymmetric victories without gameplay effect by using phasing or that time dragon.

Borean Tundra is escorting a deserter to the Alliance and not killing them. Oh and I guess looting the dead of the other faction happens too. So much faction conflict. Howling Fjord I'm pretty foggy on as I don't normally do the zone but I think there were one or two questlines of faction conflict. So like 10 quests out of a couple hundred? And again I don't really do Grizzly Hills either but I do remember that logging pvp area and I think maybe a prisoner in the arena questline? The Iron Dwarves, Worgen, and Firbolg were much more memorable. So aside from 2 questlines and a pvp area theres pretty much no faction conflict anywhere except Icecrown and Wintergrasp.

One of the complaints re: TBC was the lack of faction crap. No one gave a shit about the faction flag. They were much too busy complaining about how Illidan, Kael and Vashj were cunted on the story front. GoT's ending is in fact, very bad, but it's because it also killed the franchise going forward and ended at that note. The reason the faction war crap is talked about is because it also yields dividends later on in generating interest. One is conclusive, the other is proactive and gets more attention. Argus being a patch rather than an expansion answers nothing about the points I've made regarding it and how it has every complaint you've voiced re: the factions, except worse.
Wrath was improved by the faction conflict - BC has none, so I don't see your point. Cataclysm is much better remembered for the faction fare than its abysmal main story. In general, the more the individual races have their own defined identity and get to do their thing, the more it's liked. As I've told you several times - this is additive to a strong main plot against a big bad, not a replacement.

You do realize TBC is one of if not the most highly rated of the expansions right? And considering that the expansions that focus more on it are like the lowest rated its not looking good for your argument. And there wasn't a lack of faction conflict crap. In Hellfire you bomb the others siege weapons then fight over the flag shit, then you move on to Aldors vs Scryers and Haala sure it might not be as much as Wraths 4 total questlines but it does help show that faction conflict isn't necessary to make a good expansion and hell it could even be argued that it ends up a detriment to both the non faction conflict storyline as well as the expansion itself.

Of course it does. You really think the storyline for Argus wouldn't have been better had it been an actual expansion and the Army of the Light didn't turn out to be a bunch of space goats and 4 non goats?

[Verdugo]

You do realize TBC is one of if not the most highly rated of the expansions right?

For gameplay, not story. Story that is often mocked and ridiculed to the extent of Blizzard using the setback memes. Stop being dishonest.

[Gann Stonespire]

disagreeing with warmongering crazy leaders makes you a bad leader?
k

i know its world of WARcraft and not PEACEcraft.
so in order to maintain the WAR, sure hes a bad leader, but if it had been irl id say hes one of if not THE best leader of the horde.

IRL Baine would've been overthrown instantly when he stated his civilians deserved to be firebombed, let alone when he exiled the people defending the gate of Mulgore.

[qwerty123456]

For gameplay, not story. Story that is often mocked and ridiculed to the extent of Blizzard using the setback memes. Stop being dishonest.

Do you have any proof?

[geco]

Now that'd be an interesting thing to try, I wonder where people would rank them. I'm going to try to work with "alive/still active despite not technically being alive/has done things worth being called a racial leader yet. (which is why I'm exempting Voss, Calia, and Gazlowe for the time being)"
--particularly great--
Vol'jin
Lor'themar Theron
High Arcanist Thalyssra
--inoffensively good--
Mayla Highmountain
Overlord Geya'rah
Queen Talanji
Kiro
Ji Firepaw
--made some pretty big mistakes but atoned for them--
Thrall
Baine Bloodhoof
--Almost always evil--
Jastor Gallywix
Sylvanas

A really tough ranking to do actually from best (top) to worst (bottom) considering the majority of them have had relatively small screentime, and characters like Baine and Thrall have done both good and bad things as a direct result of more narrative focus over a longer period of time. I resorted to making subcategories.

I agree but would put Sylvanas over Baien.
If we remove BFA from the Middle Sylvanas was a great leader. It was not perfect but it was one of those who had done the most for her people.

Then in BFA she was reduced to a book villain.

Maybe when they do even more shit in Shadowlands there if I let it down from Baien.

[Combatbutler]

Do you have any proof?

Metzen apologizing for the entire draenei race retcon for example.

[Super Dickmann]

We saved his ass in Nagrand, Borean Tundra , and Twilight Highlands. I'm sure there are other cases but those are just what I remember offhand. I haven't played a forsaken in awhile but I clearly remember them mentioning killing anyone who doesn't sign up.

You give Garrosh therapy in Nagrand. You don't save him in either Borean Tundra or Twilight Highlands. As for Forsaken, check your memory, or just read the quests at the very start of Tirisfal - it's told to you in literally the first quest.

You may be right I dunno I don't really remember any dialogue in game dick riding him. I may have just missed it.

Everything surrounding his captivity and his stand before hand tells you how he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. They just fail to get it across because they're bad at their jobs. The game endlessly tells you about his competence, honor and so forth, and both you and I, at odds about most things can agree that he spent most of his time doing fuck all.

Anduin doesn't know what Baine did or didnt do. He does know he is seemingly a good person and a member of the Horde. Then he also then has Saurfang show that even more Horde aren't just evil monsters. Since I don't think either of us are going to change our mind we will just have to agree to disagree.

Everyone in a war is rationally aware that not everyone to a man in the opposing population is planning their deaths. They still impose terms at the end to ensure those nations aren't a threat to them. Anduin knowing Baine is a good dude is not a reason for him to provide a white peace. Jaina's mother and her nation should not be deciding the orcs are swell dudes after just being their victims.

Do you got a source?

The WoW Vanilla dev book when it comes to the undead being a race for one of the factions, and the Scourge being the first take. They also intended naga and things like that. WoW and WC3 being developed in parallel is something you can look up. In general, you don't need a lot of inside knowledge to know that WC1 and WC3 were done with vastly different mindsets and one was done with zero expectation the other would happen. Ditto WC3 and things like Mists. Thrall's Horde was not meant to last. It's unfit to last because of its total lack of potential for dramatic storytelling.

It was your Batman vs Joker example I just explained why you were wrong. And there are plenty of Batman stories where the joker dies or doesn't even exist. The Joker(or anyone in comics) can't die because of money not good story telling.

The Joker or any other such character doesn't die for long because the conflict with them is one of the main storytelling points. Ditto, Warcraft isn't Warcraft without Horde versus Alliance. Orcs and humans, red vs. blue. It's the foundation of the franchise and where it started off.

People weren't rating BFA as god tier up until the Horde starts turning on Sylvanas. And BFA cinematic reaction cause there was a tit for tat where both factions got a "win" and nobody really lost. Teldrassil pissed everyone off because most of the Horde players didn't sign up to be monsters and the Sylvanas fanatics were upset that she seemed to do it out of spite. Saurfang cinematic people hated because Sylvanas gets bullshit powers, goddess Sylvanas was tricked, Saurfang went out like a bitch, etc.... Many of the reasons are the same reason people got pissed at the Sylvanas Bolvar fight.

People were rating BFA as shit once it came out for both story and especially gameplay reasons. But the pre-release hype was very large and it was based on the product sold - that being the faction war. Once it came out that the gameplay was Legion minus and the story was Mists minus and we were sold something entirely different, people naturally got pissed. Saurfang cinematics got a bad rap because they were a repetitive retread of a story we already did and were a massive money sink. That's what I'm getting at - the BFA marketed and fairly popular and the BFA that actually took form were very different, especially on a story front, and the hype for the story rested largely on the faction war premise being played straight for a change.

Nobody talks about the faction shit in Cata unless its Ally being pissed all they ever get is losses or Horde Garrosh fans who try and prove he was such an amazing dude because he tossed a guy off a clifff. That "faction story" in Legion is discussed because its a who shot first moment Horde and Alliance use to try and claim their side is justified. And even then it was only used to set up the future pve and ended up otherwise meaningless faction conflict wise. Tayren players give a shit about high mountain? Did you not say before that you liked the faction conflict because it gave more lore to the races?? And I would argue the Nightborne is a thousand times more discussed than the Genn vs Sylvanas which again is because of controversies.

The zones were entirely deprived of it? Have you even played BFA dude? It's all over em lol. You could maybe argue that Voldun and the Witch one didn't have as much but to say there wasn't any is just silly.

People still talk about Silverpine, Stonetalon, Hillsbrad etc. Hell, half of the Sylvanas arguments settle on crap from Cataclysm, ditto Garrosh, not just Stonetalon. Southern Barrens is at the center of all Baine discussion, including in this topic. Compare and contrast how many still talk favorably about the Twilight's Hammer or Thrall. No one cares about Highmountain, because it's boring as all fuck. I've never talked to a tauren player here, but I've yet to have a single conversation about the entire zone. If you can show me otherwise, please do. I genuinely want to meet someone passionate about that sleep deprivation medication of a zone.

Zandalar was about the Zandalari - there's one (1) Alliance involvement, in a side area where you don't even have to go, facing some sailors. It's only in 8.1 that it's back into focus. You need to only look at its progenitor Mists at how central you can really make the factions at every turn even in an identical preening, moralizing narrative. Kul Tiras is the same - the Horde appear in Stormsong and that's it. But here's the trick - you remember it more because it was so prominent, because it was interesting. Because Brennadam is a talking point, and the tentacle men you fight were non-entities.

Borean Tundra is escorting a deserter to the Alliance and not killing them. Oh and I guess looting the dead of the other faction happens too. So much faction conflict. Howling Fjord I'm pretty foggy on as I don't normally do the zone but I think there were one or two questlines of faction conflict. So like 10 quests out of a couple hundred? And again I don't really do Grizzly Hills either but I do remember that logging pvp area and I think maybe a prisoner in the arena questline? The Iron Dwarves, Worgen, and Firbolg were much more memorable. So aside from 2 questlines and a pvp area theres pretty much no faction conflict anywhere except Icecrown and Wintergrasp.

The thing you do when you first enter Howling Fjord is fight the Alliance, then you do it repeatedly across the zone. Borean Tundra has it referred to, but I'll give you it's a side thing. In Grizzly Hills, Wintergrasp and parts of even Icecrown it's pointed out - hell, it's in the last raid. And it was a selling point - the 'war back in Warcraft', as it's a meme now. You say the furbolg were much more memorable, but I don't know who you think you're kidding. Ask a Horde player if they remember Gorgonna or the Redfang and you'll know the answer, even though you know it already. Wrath has more faction conflict in its raids than Mists or BFA, sans Battle for Dazar'alor.

You do realize TBC is one of if not the most highly rated of the expansions right? And considering that the expansions that focus more on it are like the lowest rated its not looking good for your argument. And there wasn't a lack of faction conflict crap. In Hellfire you bomb the others siege weapons then fight over the flag shit, then you move on to Aldors vs Scryers and Haala sure it might not be as much as Wraths 4 total questlines but it does help show that faction conflict isn't necessary to make a good expansion and hell it could even be argued that it ends up a detriment to both the non faction conflict storyline as well as the expansion itself.

I am. And you know how many praise TBC's story? Fucking zero. Blizzard included, hence why they rewrote Illidan, rewrote Kael and even went back and rewrote things like the Arakkoa and ogres to not be so terrible as they were in that expansion. The non-faction questline was abysmal, the faction questlines were nonexistent. And for the story to be good, both need to be accounted for.

[Gann Stonespire]

Now that'd be an interesting thing to try, I wonder where people would rank them. I'm going to try to work with "alive/still active despite not technically being alive/has done things worth being called a racial leader yet. (which is why I'm exempting Voss, Calia, and Gazlowe for the time being)"
--particularly great--
Vol'jin
Lor'themar Theron
High Arcanist Thalyssra
--inoffensively good--
Mayla Highmountain
Overlord Geya'rah
Queen Talanji
Kiro
Ji Firepaw
--made some pretty big mistakes but atoned for them--
Thrall
--made some pretty big mistakes and never atoned for them--
Baine
--Almost always evil--
Jastor Gallywix
Sylvanas

FIXED.

And Baine never did anything for the Tauren in BFA, all he did was for the humans, seemingly the only race he cares about.

[qwerty123456]

You give Garrosh therapy in Nagrand. You don't save him in either Borean Tundra or Twilight Highlands. As for Forsaken, check your memory, or just read the quests at the very start of Tirisfal - it's told to you in literally the first quest.

Yes we save him in Borean Tundra. He kept sending people to their deaths and making shit get worse. It wasn't until the player saves the day and then Saurfang saves us from certain death does the Horde do anything but die thier. And in Twilight Highlands he has our escorts go attack alliance which causes us to get attacked and shot down. We then save everyone while he does jack shit. My bad about the undead I must have misrememberedmiss read : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Those_That...n%27t_Be_Saved

The Joker or any other such character doesn't die for long because the conflict with them is one of the main storytelling points. Ditto, Warcraft isn't Warcraft without Horde versus Alliance. Orcs and humans, red vs. blue. It's the foundation of the franchise and where it started off.

It's not about main storytelling points its about what sells. There have been tons of Acclaimed Batman comics who have none of his rogues gallery or introduced new characters some who went on to become major villians. Harley Quinn wasn't introduced into the comics because of her conflict with Batman she was brought in after they saw how much wood she was giving fans of the Batman animated series(and its comic which was set in the animated universe and not the main one).

People were rating BFA as shit once it came out for both story and especially gameplay reasons. But the pre-release hype was very large and it was based on the product sold - that being the faction war. Once it came out that the gameplay was Legion minus and the story was Mists minus and we were sold something entirely different, people naturally got pissed. Saurfang cinematics got a bad rap because they were a repetitive retread of a story we already did and were a massive money sink. That's what I'm getting at - the BFA marketed and fairly popular and the BFA that actually took form were very different, especially on a story front, and the hype for the story rested largely on the faction war premise being played straight for a change.

Some people liked the idea of a faction war. There were plenty of people who were sick of it and even many forum posts here that complained as such.

People still talk about Silverpine, Stonetalon, Hillsbrad etc. Hell, half of the Sylvanas arguments settle on crap from Cataclysm, ditto Garrosh, not just Stonetalon. Southern Barrens is at the center of all Baine discussion, including in this topic. Compare and contrast how many still talk favorably about the Twilight's Hammer or Thrall. No one cares about Highmountain, because it's boring as all fuck. I've never talked to a tauren player here, but I've yet to have a single conversation about the entire zone. If you can show me otherwise, please do. I genuinely want to meet someone passionate about that sleep deprivation medication of a zone.

Who are these people? And why ignore my point about the nightborne? Nightborne were talked about far more than 2 people arguing about Garrosh or something. If you don't talk to people and only talk to the ones of interest to you of course you are going to think the faction conflict is this super important thing that all people love. And don't forget that most people don't spend hours talking about something they love if they get it. Look at the million page High elves thread. It literally blows any of your faction threads out of the water. Does that mean Alliance High Elves are good? No just like the talk about faction shit. Hell even the T*%#@s (dont want to accidentally summon him) threads drag on even longer and are posted more about.

Zandalar was about the Zandalari - there's one (1) Alliance involvement, in a side area where you don't even have to go, facing some sailors. It's only in 8.1 that it's back into focus. You need to only look at its progenitor Mists at how central you can really make the factions at every turn even in an identical preening, moralizing narrative. Kul Tiras is the same - the Horde appear in Stormsong and that's it. But here's the trick - you remember it more because it was so prominent, because it was interesting. Because Brennadam is a talking point, and the tentacle men you fight were non-entities.


The thing you do when you first enter Howling Fjord is fight the Alliance, then you do it repeatedly across the zone. Borean Tundra has it referred to, but I'll give you it's a side thing. In Grizzly Hills, Wintergrasp and parts of even Icecrown it's pointed out - hell, it's in the last raid. And it was a selling point - the 'war back in Warcraft', as it's a meme now. You say the furbolg were much more memorable, but I don't know who you think you're kidding. Ask a Horde player if they remember Gorgonna or the Redfang and you'll know the answer, even though you know it already. Wrath has more faction conflict in its raids than Mists or BFA, sans Battle for Dazar'alor.

Um the Alliance areas existed from the beginning dude. Both Horde and Alliance have to go set up bases in each of the other factions zones one even at 102 or something. And you literally just proved yourself wrong claiming these things were memorable but then missing all the Alliance and Horde shit in all the zones. And you are saying 2 5 quest questlines is bigger than the HUNDREDS of faction conflict quests in BFA????

Its a side thing they are fighting and yet just straight up give deserters to the other faction with no conflict whatsoever? And hate to break it to you bud but I am a Horde player. And considering how many things you have said wrong about the questing while I have only gotten the undead thing wrong (which I race changed years ago) I'm starting to doubt you even play the game anymore.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Howling_Fjord_quests
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Category:Quests_at_110_-_120

I am. And you know how many praise TBC's story? Fucking zero. Blizzard included, hence why they rewrote Illidan, rewrote Kael and even went back and rewrote things like the Arakkoa and ogres to not be so terrible as they were in that expansion. The non-faction questline was abysmal, the faction questlines were nonexistent. And for the story to be good, both need to be accounted for.

Show some proof.

[Powerogue]

I agree but would put Sylvanas over Baien.
If we remove BFA from the Middle Sylvanas was a great leader. It was not perfect but it was one of those who had done the most for her people.

Then in BFA she was reduced to a book villain.

Maybe when they do even more shit in Shadowlands there if I let it down from Baien.

I mean I wouldn't change my categories pre-BFA. At most generous, I'd rename the last category "almost always evil, but usually to the benefit of their race at least" as both Sylvanas and Gallywix's most-definitely-still-evil scheming was beneficial to the faction as they obtained territory, wealth, and forces through it.

- - - Updated - - -

You give Garrosh therapy in Nagrand. You don't save him in either Borean Tundra or Twilight Highlands. As for Forsaken, check your memory, or just read the quests at the very start of Tirisfal - it's told to you in literally the first quest.

Man I wish they had kept that beta version. What a way to start.

* BROOM SMACK *
Wake up! Glory to the Banshee Queen!

[Super Dickmann]

Yes we save him in Borean Tundra. He kept sending people to their deaths and making shit get worse. It wasn't until the player saves the day and then Saurfang saves us from certain death does the Horde do anything but die thier. And in Twilight Highlands he has our escorts go attack alliance which causes us to get attacked and shot down. We then save everyone while he does jack shit. My bad about the undead I must have misrememberedmiss read : https://wow.gamepedia.com/Those_That...n%27t_Be_Saved

No, he didn't. It's Saurfang who saves you after Garrosh sends you to a shit location, not you who save Garrosh. The game goes out of its way to tell you how Garrosh is successfully waging war, including Saurfang himself sending you a letter about it how Garrosh is winning so much that it's sending a message he's worried about to the rest of the Horde. This is mirrored in what Cairne says later in the Shattering about how often Garrosh was successful in Northrend. Ditto, you don't save Garrosh in Twilight Highlands. You crash after he peels away his support, then he pops back up some quests after you crashed without you fishing him out.

It's not about main storytelling points its about what sells. There have been tons of Acclaimed Batman comics who have none of his rogues gallery or introduced new characters some who went on to become major villians. Harley Quinn wasn't introduced into the comics because of her conflict with Batman she was brought in after they saw how much wood she was giving fans of the Batman animated series(and its comic which was set in the animated universe and not the main one).

Harley Quinn was indeed brought in for sex appeal and stories have multiple selling points, that's quite right - but the Rogues Gallery is a huge part of Batman's selling point. Ditto, Horde vs. Alliance is core to how the game has been sold and its appeal. Ditto, Warcraft has many more selling points than the above, but this is one of the crucial ones. And just like how Batman wouldn't be Batman without the rogues, Warcraft wouldn't be Warcraft without orcs and humans. Hell, it's the first thing you do when making a character - pick a race and wow, some of them are red and others are blue.

Some people liked the idea of a faction war. There were plenty of people who were sick of it and even many forum posts here that complained as such.

That's true, there are detractors. But compared to the detractors of 'Sylvanas fails to kill burning man' and 'Woo Pandas' as expansion trailers and selling points, BFA made off like gangbusters and it was, unlike any other expansion, sold theme-wise solely on the basis of the faction war. Yet it featured less faction war than either Cataclysm or Mists.

Who are these people? And why ignore my point about the nightborne? Nightborne were talked about far more than 2 people arguing about Garrosh or something. If you don't talk to people and only talk to the ones of interest to you of course you are going to think the faction conflict is this super important thing that all people love. And don't forget that most people don't spend hours talking about something they love if they get it. Look at the million page High elves thread. It literally blows any of your faction threads out of the water. Does that mean Alliance High Elves are good? No just like the talk about faction shit. Hell even the T*%#@s (dont want to accidentally summon him) threads drag on even longer and are posted more about.

People in this very topic for one. You, for participating in this thread while there's five Jailor threads up where you haven't written a thing. Hell, the last time I saw you post in this sub-forum it was about Horde reparations. The majority of threads at time of writing tackle races and faction at a glance at the present lore page. I will admit though that the Nightborne were a massive ommission on my part and that you are quite right that they were the most approved of story bit of Legion, ditto Suramar.

Also the high elf posters don't count since they have a containment thread. This is one of a long line of a million Baine threads that all tackle the same points. If Aucald have made a Cow Appreciation Society thread it'd be different.

And hate to break it to you bud but I am a Horde player. And considering how many things you have said wrong about the questing while I have only gotten the undead thing wrong (which I race changed years ago) I'm starting to doubt you even play the game anymore.

Press X to Doubt. You've been wrong about everything regarding Garrosh and you will a little while from now tell me about how Howling Fjord lacks faction quests despite a list that shows how many of them there are relative to faction content and the zone kicking it off Horde-side with that. Something you'd know if you played Horde rather than claim you do for some reason.

Um the Alliance areas existed from the beginning dude. Both Horde and Alliance have to go set up bases in each of the other factions zones one even at 102 or something. And you literally just proved yourself wrong claiming these things were memorable but then missing all the Alliance and Horde shit in all the zones. And you are saying 2 5 quest questlines is bigger than the HUNDREDS of faction conflict quests in BFA????

Its a side thing they are fighting and yet just straight up give deserters to the other faction with no conflict whatsoever? And hate to break it to you bud but I am a Horde player. And considering how many things you have said wrong about the questing while I have only gotten the undead thing wrong (which I race changed years ago) I'm starting to doubt you even play the game anymore.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Howling_Fjord_quests
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Category:Quests_at_110_-_120

Hundreds is really pushing it. There's more faction quests in Jade Forest than there are in all of BFA's launch material, but that's neither here nor there. When it comes to Howling Fjord, as I told you in my last post, you literally start the zone as Horde fighting the Alliance and that follows on for about ten quests. This doesn't include the faction exclusive quests regarding the Blight and so forth, but mostly as a courtesy towards you - if I included them I'd have to cut not just the anti-faction quests, of which there are as noted - three in a side area of Zuldazar, but also the initial parts of the war campaign that you chiefly spend going after unrelated factions. I will give you though that I was wrong about Borean Tundra as I was remembering faction-exclusive quests rather than faction-fighting quests.

Show some proof.

Sure, just off this sub-forum alone the only ones thought to be worse are WoD and BFA - https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...the-worst-Lore. TBC is widely considered to have some of the worst lore of all time, and dev action shows you this given how they dealt with Illidan, Vashj and Kael'thas later and how Suramar is essentially the blood elf TBC story except done better.

@Powerogue

It would have really added to my immersion. I like to think that the broom would have Sylvanas's logo on it so her branding gets you fresh out of the grave.

[CTiranno]

Some people liked the idea of a faction war. There were plenty of people who were sick of it and even many forum posts here that complained as such.

Just some people liked the idea of a faction war? Are you sure about that? Because, if you are, you might need a second watch of the entire marketing around BfA.
Blizzard knows very well the selling points of their expansions and "Horde vs Alliance" is certainly one of the strongest.
And this expansion, looking at the whole marketing around "Faction pride" and "Why is the Alliance attacking Undercity?", at the beginning sounded like an experience focused on the Alliance being the proactive faction (for once) and the Horde being pushed to discover once again its need for unity against the Alliance.

All hints pointed at an expansion focused on both factions and their inevitable war pushed by "warbringers" like Jaina and Sylvanas.
What we got instead? Not only an expansion where the Horde was, once again, the first to attack but also Blizzard yelling at us that we should be ashamed for bringing war in a fictional world and for pushing the division between factions (even though that was the aim of all the advertisement for BfA).

Basically Blizzard asked us to be hyped for an awesome plate just to bodyshame us after delivering a mediocre dish.
For this reason I hate Baine as a character. He is the ingame rappresentation of everything wrong with this expansion. He should be a leader of the Horde, instead, as a Horde player, I saw him making more effort to help the Alliance than his own faction just to satisfy his own vision of the Horde without accepting that most of the faction wants to fight the Alliance for multiple reasons.

P.S. A reminder of the marketing for BfA

[Lazuli]

I'm not sure people care about faction war as much as blizzard thinks we do. I certainly didn't like the commercials or the idea of the xpac at all since its been done before. It just goes to show they don't have the talent anymore to make anything fresh. Faction pride was cool when I was like 15.

Its ok though its time to ride the wotlk 2.0 train, what will we rehash next?

[geco]

I mean I wouldn't change my categories pre-BFA. At most generous, I'd rename the last category "almost always evil, but usually to the benefit of their race at least" as both Sylvanas and Gallywix's most-definitely-still-evil scheming was beneficial to the faction as they obtained territory, wealth, and forces through it.

But being evil doesn't make you a bad leader.

For example forgiving the Horde over and over again. It led to Teldrazzil passing and then another war where supposedly a lot of other people died. There being good makes you guilty of a genocide. To have dismantled the Horde "being bad" would have saved a lot of lives.

[Jester Joe]

But being evil doesn't make you a bad leader.

For example forgiving the Horde over and over again. It led to Teldrazzil passing and then another war where supposedly a lot of other people died. There being good makes you guilty of a genocide. To have dismantled the Horde "being bad" would have saved a lot of lives.

As a blanket statement, being evil doesn't make you a bad leader, sure that can be true but they do usually end up contradicting each other and Sylvanas is a perfect example of that.

Reminder, even in Legion she was Warchief of the Horde, and while people love to rail Genn for his actions in Stormheim, it seems to go under the radar that Sylvanas took off with a small group of her own followers in an attempt to enslave Eyir, which would have placed Odyn against the Horde as a result.

At the time, this was thought to maybe be her trying to find a means to secure the Forsaken's future, but now it's shown that all along she was just working for the Jailer at that time. She also chose to align with Helya, who is shown to be a villain in general, past her hate for Odyn (who did screw her over, yes, but she isn't just looking for revenge against him anymore).


And I'm honestly confused how you're trying to say that forgiving the Horde led to Teldrassil. The Alliance certainly didn't "forgive" at that point for Varian still (leaving aside whether or not they're in the right for blaming them). Anduin himself might have not harbored hate exactly, he was still distrustful of Sylvanas. The real reason for the lull wasn't out of forgiveness, it's because both factions were just getting back from a huge war against the Legion and now there's a giant sword in Azeroth. The last thing anyone thought to do was to go back to war, except Sylvanas.

[Arrashi]

Tauren are presumably pacifist in nature. In that regard Baine probably did what was in line for the culture of the Tauren.

Else if they're not pacifist in nature, I wouldn't know why it seems to be a continuously recurring theme for them.

Ignoring taunka, yaungol, grimtotems and all tauren who are horde soldiers tauren are indeed very pacifist. Hell, even highmountain have some spine. Its just baine who is parody of that concept.

[geco]

And I'm honestly confused how you're trying to say that forgiving the Horde led to Teldrassil. The Alliance certainly didn't "forgive" at that point for Varian still (leaving aside whether or not they're in the right for blaming them). Anduin himself might have not harbored hate exactly, he was still distrustful of Sylvanas. The real reason for the lull wasn't out of forgiveness, it's because both factions were just getting back from a huge war against the Legion and now there's a giant sword in Azeroth. The last thing anyone thought to do was to go back to war, except Sylvanas.

How could the burning of Teldrassil happen without the Horde?

It is like leaving all the murderers on the loose and if they kill it is the police's fault for not being there at the right time. (Thing that more or less happens in my country XD)

Aperte I don't know if you read the novels. But Teldrassil happens because Varock agrees with Return to war. Because no one in the Horde remembers his Honor or his treatises.

[Jester Joe]

How could the burning of Teldrassil happen without the Horde?

It is like leaving all the murderers on the loose and if they kill it is the police's fault for not being there at the right time. (Thing that more or less happens in my country XD)

Aperte I don't know if you read the novels. But Teldrassil happens because Varock agrees with Return to war. Because no one in the Horde remembers his Honor or his treatises.

Teldrassil burning is, as much as it's memed, is largely on Sylvanas and to some degree also Saurfang.

The plan wasn't to burn Teldrassil. It was to kill Malfurion. When Saurfang spared Malfurion because he felt it was dishonorable, Sylvanas decided to burn the tree instead. It's arguable how much blame actually lands on the Horde itself, but honestly it's pretty irrelevant here because the point is that Sylvanas was the one who ordered it.

No one expected it, nothing hinted towards it at all. Saurfang even helps save civilians after and has the Horde champions do so too, as was seen in the pre-patch event for BfA.

[Super Dickmann]

No one expected it, nothing hinted towards it at all. Saurfang even helps save civilians after and has the Horde champions do so too, as was seen in the pre-patch event for BfA.

This never happens - your only input into saving civilians is in the attack of one of many settlements. Saurfang himself approved sending armies of rogues preemptively in the War of Thorns. Later on, the Darkspear trolls in Darkshore use night elves as target practices and orcs fight alongside skeletons.

Saurfang has no in-game appearances after until Lordaeron, where he was the only one throwing the fight (and his troops' lives) by purposefuly sparing Anduin, with everyone else fighting for the Horde still. No one else even mentions Teldrassil afterwards except for a God of War meme character and Lor'themar, but the latter only brings it up after the war is already over. Sylvanas's orders were followed with zero hesitation from either the catapult teams or the shamans who helped speed up the flame and resulted in no uprising. Nothing resulted in a large scale uprising, the Horde schism was solved when Sylvanas herself called them all names and flew off, not a mass movement against her on the basis of Teldrassil or any other moral failing. The Horde is culpable for Teldrassil, not just Sylvanas.

[Jester Joe]

This never happens - your only input into saving civilians is in the attack of one of many settlements. Saurfang himself approved sending armies of rogues preemptively in the War of Thorns. Later on, the Darkspear trolls in Darkshore use night elves as target practices and orcs fight alongside skeletons.

It definitely did happen, whether it was a pre-patch World Quest or something else, I'll have to keep digging to find it but I remember it quite well. It took place near Lor'danel and it came from Saurfang, talking about how the civilians shouldn't be caught up in this murder and to help them get out alive.

Now if that's what you mean by "that's one of many settlements", I feel like I should point out I never said he helped save civilians from Teldrassil nor implied that either, a bit of an assumption there.