Maldraxxus and Necromancy

[Ersula]

We were talking architecture. Scourge took it from nerubians, who took it from tol'vir, who were made by the Titans. Scourge later adapted it according to Arthas' visions of the Shadowlands. It was revealed that Kil'jaeden visited the Shadowlands and that was where he created Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination.

Arthas' non canonical visions of the shadowlands? If recontextualizing existing lore is a retcon to you, then all of this is a retcon because none of this was intended at the time of Wrath. These devs weren't even working on Warcraft during Wrath. The Helm of Domination literally coming from the shadowlands was not canon until they announced the Shadowlands expansion. But I don't think giving more context things we've only gleaned should be considered a retcon.

(Also, Loken made the Tol'vir. Not a titan, in fact, Loken hated the titans. It's never said anywhere Kil'jaeden made the Lich King's armaments, just that he commissioned the dreadlords to acquire them. And at this point we don't even know if Arthas knew about the Shadowlands: We can only assume he might have because Bolvar knows about the Shadowlands. While it is implied that Kel'thuzad had extensive knowledge of the Shadowlands as he apparently came & went from them as he pleased.)

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Which is just headcanon, hence "no basis in lore"

"This ornate box is covered with webs of gold and the skittering script of the nerubians. Inside is a heart, gray with age but still very much alive. It beats slowly, as if dormant." Most of the Nerubian Archeology works refer to various unliving rituals. Necromancy. I'm just trying to show you that there are other possible explanations to nerubains having Necrolord-esque buildings at the time of Warcraft 3: Even besides the most obvious one being the Scourge just had them built.

Re-contextualizing existing lore is something that always happens to long franchises.

[WaltherLeopold]

"This ornate box is covered with webs of gold and the skittering script of the nerubians. Inside is a heart, gray with age but still very much alive. It beats slowly, as if dormant." Most of the Nerubian Archeology works refer to various unliving rituals. Necromancy. I'm just trying to show you that there are other possible explanations to nerubains having Necrolord-esque buildings at the time of Warcraft 3: Even besides the most obvious one being the Scourge just had them built.

Re-contextualizing existing lore is something that always happens to long franchises.

There's almost no references to necromancy within nerubian lore that doesn't pertain to the scourge.

This is paper thin, stop it.

[Super Dickmann]

Gotta correct you in a few places. The orc souls placed in bodies were the death knights, not liches. Some of those death knights were with Ner'zhul when Kil'jaeden caught him and were transformed into liches to keep serving him when he was forcible made the first Lich King. Other liches are simply powerful mages or necromancers who became powerful undead either by being raised or through ritual. And as we now know Kil'jaeden was quite aware of the Shadowlands which explains why the liches he was responsible for resemble the ones in Maldraxxus.

As for your next point, remember that nerubians got the architecture from the northrend tol'vir they slaughtered and appropriated it. Who were made the Titans. Who also have a connection to the Shadowlands.

You are both right and wrong on the DK point. Yes, the Death Knights were put into human bodies after the Shadow Council got killed but the liches were the bodies of Ner'zhul's followers, chiefly left over warlocks, but also Death Knights who following the destruction of Draenor got punted into the Twisting Nether into KJ's hands, whereupon he turned them into liches. These are two separate events.

As for the nerubians, I'd be willing to accept the idea that they glimpsed into the Shadowlands, if at a real stretch as regular nerubians don't seem to use much, if any, necromancy. What I'd be less willing to accept is that there just so happened to be an unrelated, functionally identical spider person population in Maldraxxus.

[Saltysquidoon]

Re-contextualizing existing lore is something that always happens to long franchises.

Retcons existing is not a problem in of itself. The problem arises with the reasons, execution, and frequency that underpins them.

As I said in my first post it is blatantly obvious maldraxxus was a business decision because this is the undead expac and in Warcraft undead means scourge, the fact the expac doesn't take place on azeroth be damned the PR department gets 'scourge'.

You can do blizzard's work for them if you really want, no one can stop you. But pretending a literal 1:1 recreation of the scourge even down to nonsensical things like both having spider people is lazy, sloppy and blatantly appealing to nostalgia bucks at the expense of consistency.

I think that's part of the reason they tend to go with Light and Void instead of Shadow nowadays. Still, maybe they need to rename the schools, possibly even on a per-class basis. Wouldn't mind Druids getting Solar and Lunar so people stop using that as evidence Druids use Arcane magic, and it would fit better with Astral.

That's because the cosmology chart is a retcon (even if plenty of people here will claim its a mere 'recontextualization'), because necromancy used to be powered by shadow magic.

It's the same reason the titans were primarily pitted against the old gods and the naaru against the legion, despite each opposing the other force on the cosmology chart.

[Wangming]

You see plenty of action from Sauron in the Silmarillion - he's a peerless smith, able to cast a powerful and compelling glamour that sways the heart and mind, a shapeshifter, and has access to similar magical powers as Gandalf and Saruman (being of the same order of being as they are, one of the Maiar). None of those powers involve death or divination in any real sense. The closest Sauron actually has to death magic is his control over the ringwraiths, but that's less power over spirit beings and more power over the mind-controlling rings they still bear as wraiths.

You are doing this on purpose aren't you? Listen I consider you a far more inteligent person to believe you don't understand what I'm trying to say. Do I have to talk to you as if you were a toddler to make sure you respond to the intended meaning? We haven't seen Sauron in action during the time he went by the title 'The Necromancer' so we have no idea how he earned said title. In fact, the true identity of the Necromancer came as a revelation. Now I don't particularly like Tolkien as an author, but I do stand by my belief that as a competent linguist he would not have called a character a Necromancer just because it would sound cool.

[Combatbutler]

- Venthyr: you do not return.

Depends once you are absolved of your sins you get resorted and might end up in bastion.

[Aucald]

You are doing this on purpose aren't you? Listen I consider you a far more inteligent person to believe you don't understand what I'm trying to say. Do I have to talk to you as if you were a toddler to make sure you respond to the intended meaning? We haven't seen Sauron in action during the time he went by the title 'The Necromancer' so we have no idea how he earned said title. In fact, the true identity of the Necromancer came as a revelation. Now I don't particularly like Tolkien as an author, but I do stand by my belief that as a competent linguist he would not have called a character a Necromancer just because it would sound cool.

Well if the purpose is providing proof for my prior assertion (e.g. "Necromancer" having a wider popular meaning than one who divines via manipulation of the dead), then yes, I am doing it on purpose. I don't think there's anything otherwise immature about that, so I'm not sure where this toddler idea of yours is coming from. I, and most people who dabble in fantasy literature, already know what the origin of the suffix "-mancy" means, and the older, archaic meaning of "Necromancer." But the term has broadened considerably in popular fantasy fiction - that's what I'm talking about. This broadening was well into effect by Tolkien's time, as well; so it's not as if he was making a linguistic faux pas by using the term in the manner he did. Kind of like pyromancy originally being a form of divination done by watching the movement of a flame in a brazier, but now pyromancy (and pyromancer) is the general term of use for a magic-user who specializes in fire magic.

[Ersula]

You can do blizzard's work for them if you really want, no one can stop you. But pretending a literal 1:1 recreation of the scourge even down to nonsensical things like both having spider people is lazy, sloppy and blatantly appealing to nostalgia bucks at the expense of consistency.

"both having spider people" ...because the spider people went to shadowlands when they died. Reincorporating things from past lore, especially in a magical, metaphysical way, may be lazy but it's not inconsistent. It's the opposite. Reincorporation is the bread & butter of fantasy universes.

[huth]

That's because the cosmology chart is a retcon (even if plenty of people here will claim its a mere 'recontextualization'), because necromancy used to be powered by shadow magic.

It's only a retcon if existing canon is changed. Everything else is simple addition. Before the chart, where Necromancy came from wasn't really explained in any fundamental manner.

It's the same reason the titans were primarily pitted against the old gods and the naaru against the legion, despite each opposing the other force on the cosmology chart.

Not even close. We already know both Light and Avoid have attacked Death at some point. The various forces getting into conflict is simply normal, they aren't limited to their direct opposites.

[Houle]

"both having spider people" ...because the spider people went to shadowlands when they died. Reincorporating things from past lore, especially in a magical, metaphysical way, may be lazy but it's not inconsistent. It's the opposite. Reincorporation is the bread & butter of fantasy universes.

mate, i think youll find that you are in the minority with that opinion.
maldraxxus exists SOLELY to cater to the scourge fans. how anyone can deny that is beyond me. its painfully obvious, especially since its the only place in the shadowlands where its suddenly all "zombies and undeath". not a single other place in the shadowlands is plastered with zombies, skulls and plague, in fact, most other shadowland realms look like they could just as well be living creatures on a normal planet
again, what in maldraxxus isnt scourge? it has zombies, skeletons, liches, nerubians, the same architecture, and, for some reason, even plague is present there
why would plague be in a place thats all about honorable armed combat, except to make player think "oh just like the scourge"

[cparle87]

Arthas' non canonical visions of the shadowlands? If recontextualizing existing lore is a retcon to you, then all of this is a retcon because none of this was intended at the time of Wrath. These devs weren't even working on Warcraft during Wrath. The Helm of Domination literally coming from the shadowlands was not canon until they announced the Shadowlands expansion. But I don't think giving more context things we've only gleaned should be considered a retcon.

(Also, Loken made the Tol'vir. Not a titan, in fact, Loken hated the titans. It's never said anywhere Kil'jaeden made the Lich King's armaments, just that he commissioned the dreadlords to acquire them. And at this point we don't even know if Arthas knew about the Shadowlands: We can only assume he might have because Bolvar knows about the Shadowlands. While it is implied that Kel'thuzad had extensive knowledge of the Shadowlands as he apparently came & went from them as he pleased.)

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"This ornate box is covered with webs of gold and the skittering script of the nerubians. Inside is a heart, gray with age but still very much alive. It beats slowly, as if dormant." Most of the Nerubian Archeology works refer to various unliving rituals. Necromancy. I'm just trying to show you that there are other possible explanations to nerubains having Necrolord-esque buildings at the time of Warcraft 3: Even besides the most obvious one being the Scourge just had them built.

Re-contextualizing existing lore is something that always happens to long franchises.

"The trolls fought them for many thousands of years but never succeeded in winning a true victory over the Aqir. Eventually, due to the trolls' persistence, the aqiri kingdom split in half as its citizens fled to separate colonies in the far northern and southern regions of the continent. Not long after the troll empires divided the insectoid kingdom of the aqir, the aqir that traveled north discovered and overthrew the tol'vir society in the northern wastes of Northrend. These aqir would eventually become the race we know as the nerubian today, having adapted the tol'vir's architecture for their own purposes."

First paragraph of the nerubian's page on wowpedia. Even the silithid's obsidian destroyers were captured tol'vir form Uldum.

I might have a weird idea of retcon, but I'll try to explain it. We're told A happens, but not why. Later we find out why. Like Illidan's motives and actions against the Legion that were revealed in Legion. We knew he did stuff, but not why. I don't consider this a retcon since it doesn't change events we know happened. Nothing Illidan did changed. Changing the eredar from demons who corrupted Sargeras into beings corrupted by him into demons is a retcon.

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You are both right and wrong on the DK point. Yes, the Death Knights were put into human bodies after the Shadow Council got killed but the liches were the bodies of Ner'zhul's followers, chiefly left over warlocks, but also Death Knights who following the destruction of Draenor got punted into the Twisting Nether into KJ's hands, whereupon he turned them into liches. These are two separate events.

As for the nerubians, I'd be willing to accept the idea that they glimpsed into the Shadowlands, if at a real stretch as regular nerubians don't seem to use much, if any, necromancy. What I'd be less willing to accept is that there just so happened to be an unrelated, functionally identical spider person population in Maldraxxus.

Um, the liches were the bodies of Ner'zhul's followers? I'm afraid you've lost me. Orc necrolyte spirit + human body = 1st generation death knights who were transformed into Liches by Kil'jaeden after Ner'zhul was caught. There's other ways to become Liches, though . I'm not sure what you were on about having orc souls made the death knights have unusual skulls. I'm lost.

[enigma77]

I think the idea is that necromancy as practiced by the Scourge is a corrupted form. The natural necromancy is attaching a willing soul to a constructed body, like in Maldraxxus. The perverted, corrupt form is forcefully doing that and enslaving the being's mind which causes trauma and emotional distress, i.e the soul being imperfectly attached.

That or the Necromancy practiced by the Scourge is inherently a different form of magic, Fel.

[Verdugo]

I think the idea is that necromancy as practiced by the Scourge is a corrupted form. The natural necromancy is attaching a willing soul to a constructed body, like in Maldraxxus. The perverted, corrupt form is forcefully doing that and enslaving the being's mind which causes trauma and emotional distress, i.e the soul being imperfectly attached.

That or the Necromancy practiced by the Scourge is inherently a different form of magic, Fel.

OR, Blizzard is pandering to nostalgia so that people are more likely to throw money at another shallow expansion.

Um, the liches were the bodies of Ner'zhul's followers? I'm afraid you've lost me. Orc necrolyte spirit + human body = 1st generation death knights who were transformed into Liches by Kil'jaeden after Ner'zhul was caught. There's other ways to become Liches, though . I'm not sure what you were on about having orc souls made the death knights have unusual skulls. I'm lost.

Ner'zhul didnt go alone through the portal, he had some followers, all of which were tortured together with Ner'zhul and then turned into first liches and why they have weird skulls, even the human liches for some reason.

[enigma77]

OR, Blizzard is pandering to nostalgia so that people are more likely to throw money at another shallow expansion.



Ner'zhul didnt go alone through the portal, he had some followers, all of which were tortured together with Ner'zhul and then turned into first liches and why they have weird skulls, even the human liches for some reason.

Now, now, that can't possibly be right.

[Super Dickmann]

Um, the liches were the bodies of Ner'zhul's followers? I'm afraid you've lost me. Orc necrolyte spirit + human body = 1st generation death knights who were transformed into Liches by Kil'jaeden after Ner'zhul was caught. There's other ways to become Liches, though . I'm not sure what you were on about having orc souls made the death knights have unusual skulls. I'm lost.

Gul'dan created the death knights out of the souls of the Shadow Council warlocks that Orgrim had killed. This was at the start of the Second War. Most of these Death Knights later fucked off, except for Gorefiend and some no names you can spam in Beyond the Dark Portal if you're not using the patrician ogre mage spam strategy.

Much later, Ner'zhul and other warlocks use the Sceptre of Sargeras to open portals to other worlds. Kil'jaeden catches them and used Ner'zhul's soul for the Frozen Throne while the bodies and souls of his followers for the liches. Being orcish skeletons, they kept the tusks, hence the tusks on the Lich model looking the way they do. There's other ways to make liches, but KT is just reusing their model in WC3.

These are separate processes and events.

[Soon-TM]

I think the idea is that necromancy as practiced by the Scourge is a corrupted form. The natural necromancy is attaching a willing soul to a constructed body, like in Maldraxxus. The perverted, corrupt form is forcefully doing that and enslaving the being's mind which causes trauma and emotional distress, i.e the soul being imperfectly attached.

That or the Necromancy practiced by the Scourge is inherently a different form of magic, Fel.

I like this theory. Especially when we know that the Scourge is (was?) of demonic origin.

[huth]

I like this theory. Especially when we know that the Scourge is (was?) of demonic origin.

It was still created by KJ. So there's probably some Fel corruption, and we already know Fel is fueled by souls, so it would inherently be damaging them.

[Nerovar]

Death is not Shadow in terms of the lore.

This is a retcon though. Undead used to be created through Shadow magic in the lore before they turned Death into its "domain" with associated powers.

[The Butt Witch]

So since Shadowlands was announced we've heard Maldraxxus described as the origin of Necromancy and inspiration for the Scourge, Liches, and all that stuff. However the more we learn about Shadowlands the more I'm wondering how this fits together? From what I can gather the denizens of Maldraxxus aren't actually undead in the traditional sense of "a spirit imperfectly reattached to the body through shadow magic", but rather they are actually dead spirits given new perfectly fitting but undead-looking (as in rotting flesh, bones, ect.) bodies because they like the aesthetic.

In what way then is Maldraxxus actually related to necromancy as we see it on Azeroth? And if it is necromancy somehow, then why is necromancy universally seen as evil and unnatural on Azeroth when it occurs perfectly naturally and is wielded perfectly honourably/virtuously by its originators in Maldraxxus?
This could I suppose be linked to the question asked elsewhere as to why we were initially told that the Forsaken were emotionally stunted because of the trauma of being raised to undead but now apparently undeath has no moral or emotional repercussions, which is the impression one gets from the characters we meet in Maldraxxus (again if indeed they are undead).

I'll admit to not having played the beta, so can someone tell me if I'm missing something here?

Because society in Azeroth is inspired from real life Christian society, and Christianity doesn't believe in necromancy nor an earth-bound afterlife, and finds it abhorrent. Most cultures do, for that matter. However ancient Egyptian culture certainly did not, nor did the Scandinavian for the most part.

[huth]

This is a retcon though. Undead used to be created through Shadow magic in the lore before they turned Death into its "domain" with associated powers.

That was at a time when shadow magic was basically like saying "black magic", though.