Easy vs Hard?

[melodramocracy]

WoW is as easy or difficult as you want it to be. The underlying issue is that it's a game that often demands that you keep up with the expectations of other players rather than the game itself.

Difficulty has almost nothing to do with how engrossing a game is to play.

[WowIsDead64]

But if you get the gear mailed to you like you want then what will you do? If you don't actually play the game then why do you care about gear? This is the concept that you have trouble with grasping.

So you imply, that taking baseline power away to force it's grinding back - isn't terrible system? It's not about "gear mailed". My baseline power just should be returned back to what it was back in previous xpacks. I'm just not one of that players, who like to play "on edge", like in video, I posted before. There are special kinds of content for that players. Mythic+ for example. If they want to be "on edge" - they should go there. And outdoor has always been for players, who just want to relax and do their stuff routinely.

You are interpreting casual and hardcore game play wrong. Casual game play is stuff that you can pick up and do by yourself anytime anywhere. It doesn't matter how long it takes. Eg include pet battles, leveling 1000 pets to 25 and queable content. Hardcore play is stuff that you need some sort of preparation. Raiding, rated PvP, and pet dungeons.

That's why casuals are linked to be bad. They don't have the ability to consistently do hardcore content.

So, you imply, that speed-runner, who does 100500 game runs every day, even if this game is easy, like Super Mario Bros - isn't hardcore? Ok.

[arkanon]

So, you imply, that speed-runner, who does 100500 game runs every day, even if this game is easy, like Super Mario Bros - isn't hardcore? Ok.

Ah yes, the speed runners doing over 100,000 runs of a game every day - a VERY common thing to refer to that further strengthens your argument! At least you didnt resort to hyperbole and arguing from extremes to make your point!

Now lets turn your own "argument" back on you; What about someone who runs SMB 10-20 times every few days to try and improve? What about someone who waits for the weekend and throws down 50 runs on a saturday night?

[WowIsDead64]

Ah yes, the speed runners doing over 100,000 runs of a game every day - a VERY common thing to refer to that further strengthens your argument! At least you didnt resort to hyperbole and arguing from extremes to make your point!

Now lets turn your own "argument" back on you; What about someone who runs SMB 10-20 times every few days to try and improve? What about someone who waits for the weekend and throws down 50 runs on a saturday night?

Some people here seem to not understand concept of linear interpolation. Hard to talk with people, who don't know so basic things. Extremes are the best way to set base values, as everything else lies in between, so you can always say something like "it's 60% of X". As you can see, my graph is gradual, not black and while. And that's for reason.

[arkanon]

Some people here seem to not understand concept of linear interpolation. Hard to talk with people, who don't know so basic things. Extremes are the best way to set base values, as everything else lies in between, so you can always say something like "it's 60% of X". As you can see, my graph is gradual, not black and while. And that's for reason.

hmm, but you only mentioned "100,500 runs" and not "50 - 100,000 runs". Almost like you intentionally used the data point that better suited your argument...and an entirely unrealistic one at that.

[kaminaris]

This whole pool and post is absolutely irrelevant because its more like
effort = win
or
skill = win

certainly at the begining of wow it was former but now its being shifted into later.

To git gud (and gear) in vanilla you needed to have time, and really not much of a skill, that continued till wotlk.
Past wotlk you needed more skill, even with recent expansions.

You don't need even a fraction of that time to get on highest level but you need to have some skill.

[Your Mommy]

I am a casual player, I never do high end m+ nor mythic raiding, I do believe the game is more casual-friendly than ever before... all I could ask is for them to make alts easily viable again and I am happy...

[munkeyinorbit]

Some people here seem to not understand concept of linear interpolation. Hard to talk with people, who don't know so basic things. Extremes are the best way to set base values, as everything else lies in between, so you can always say something like "it's 60% of X". As you can see, my graph is gradual, not black and while. And that's for reason.

Making things up and putting it into a graph means nothing. Your fantasy graphs may be using graduation but you speak in absolutes.
Using the SMB example is a poor choice. That game is harder than what most of WoW is. By the definition of casual v hardcore, SMB is hardcore whether you do it once or 100,500 times a day.

- - - Updated - - -

I always thought that it's all about commitment per se. I mean, are there any official description of casual and hardcore?

Yes there is. The official MMOC definition of casual and hardcore is

"Anyone who is not on my level of progress is a casual, anyone who is ahead of me on progress is hardcore. I play the game the right way and anyone who doesn't play like me on my level is wrong. Casual and hardcore are meant to be derogatory terms".

In reality it's to do with commitment but not necessarily time commitment. Once you get over that hump at the beginning of an expac or patch even hardcore players can raidlog.

[cparle87]

Well, I sorta get you.
Trying to max out a char, as a casual player is way too time consuming now.

I recently returned to WoW, to play PVP while I wait for SL.. But getting the currency to buy all the corruptions I need on all my gear, is way too timeconsuming - it makes the goal seem unreachable. Especially because I like to play a new char everyday I log in.

But then again - I dont expect to have the same gear as people who play the game multiple hours every day.
(But some more catch-up mechanics would be nice this far into the expac)

"Trying to max a character" "as a casual" Those two comments do not relate. See, this is the problem that you and the OP have. You claim to be casual, but only after you keep your AP caught up, get good corruptions/azerite, and do a million other tasks. That is not a casual. You are a semi-hardcore, not a casual. And seriously? Some more catch-up? You get handed a 50 ilvl neck and can get multiple levels a day up until the 70s, can buy rank 3 essences on your alts after like a week of dailies, and can skip half the questline to get the cloak. What more catchup do you need?

[Mermeoth]

WoW is as easy or difficult as you want it to be. The underlying issue is that it's a game that often demands that you keep up with the expectations of other players rather than the game itself.

Difficulty has almost nothing to do with how engrossing a game is to play.

Oh this is so true I just had to quote it.

[kukkamies]

Using the SMB example is a poor choice. That game is harder than what most of WoW is. By the definition of casual v hardcore, SMB is hardcore whether you do it once or 100,500 times a day.

Have you actually played SMB... It's one of the easiest games that exists out there, much easier than any other game from that time period. Probably why it got so popular, anyone could play through it and make progress without practicing.
You just mentioned that "Casual game play is stuff that you can pick up and do by yourself anytime anywhere" which is exactly what SMB is. Do you even have your own definitions of casual v hardcore made?

Games are pretty much all about the time you put in. In most cases skill and getting good just means putting in more time and playing more, practicing more. Preparation is also time you need to do before the event or game itself and nothing more.
Some games give you mindless grinds, others make you focus. I'd think hardcore is a line with required time and focus. Just letting a game run that needs 0 interaction wouldn't be hardcore. Also a game that's over in 1 hour but needs constant focus isn't that hardcore. However needing some focus and 200 hours would be, as little focus and 2000 hours would also be.

[Zephire]

- pictures of charts -

I don't really get this one either.

What happens if I put a low amount of time doing very difficult content? Am I hardcore or not?

What if I put an insane amount of time on very easy content? Is that being casual?

I mean, in the start of BFA I spent at least 2h per day only doing world quests. Not because they were hard but because I needed rep or other rewards. I did this for at least 45 days straight before I just couldn't do it any more, it was so boring. I'd say that is totally hardcore.

I'm doing a mythic 15 or higher every week, the 3 invasions, a vision, the mini vision and 2 raids of mythic Ny'alotha. I think my playstyle I'm pretty casual at the moment. Like 6h of raiding and 2h for everything else, thats 8h online time per week, a little more than 1h per day. What would I be according to your shart?

[WowIsDead64]

I don't really get this one either.

What happens if I put a low amount of time doing very difficult content? Am I hardcore or not?

What if I put an insane amount of time on very easy content? Is that being casual?

I mean, in the start of BFA I spent at least 2h per day only doing world quests. Not because they were hard but because I needed rep or other rewards. I did this for at least 45 days straight before I just couldn't do it any more, it was so boring. I'd say that is totally hardcore.

I'm doing a mythic 15 or higher every week, the 3 invasions, a vision, the mini vision and 2 raids of mythic Ny'alotha. I think my playstyle I'm pretty casual at the moment. Like 6h of raiding and 2h for everything else, thats 8h online time per week, a little more than 1h per day. What would I be according to your shart?

Why not? I played Battletoads 1hr a day back in old days. And I was HARDCORE back then, because this game is HARDCORE. Dunno about newer hard games, because I don't play them. Meatboy? Boshy? Dark Souls or something like that? I guess, even if you play such game just for 1hr a day - then you're already hardcore.

Dunno. This discussion goes to deadlock. Overall, I just try to say, that I'm not bad player. I just prefer to play games differently. I play more, when game is easier, routine, relaxing and allows me to play it my way. That's it. I bought Terraria at May. After that I've bought two another games, I really liked. And I wanna buy 3rd, when it will be on sale. Problem is - I still don't have time to play them, because I still like Terraria and have lots of things to do in it. I still haven't reached crimson in my first world. And haven't defeated any boss, except Cthulhu. And what about Wow? There is no place for players like me in current Wow. We have group content or hard content. No more options. Barely can keep playing for 1 month not to waste sub fee. And as I buy more and more other games, Wow loses more and more room in my game budget for this year.

[Argenon]

IMO, this gave has never been more casual friendly than it is right now. You can see all the content without ever being in a guild or static group. Now if you want to go beyond LFG or normal difficulty, then it may be more difficult, but at that point you are leaving the "casual" crowd behind. During what some would call progression, I log on mostly only on raid days and am still able to achieve heroic level content. I would consider myself in the tier above casual. And honestly, finding a group to run normal raids with is pretty simple.

Leveling is easier than ever before. Gearing has more avenues. Dungeons have multiple difficulties so you can stomp whatever you want or challenge yourself to whatever extent you please. I can't think of any content that doesn't have entrance points at multiple difficulties. Again, in my opinion as someone who has played the game for 15+ years, this game has never been more casual friendly.

What do you mean play it "your way"? From what I can tell is you want hack and slash mechanics where you can just mow through mobs, thats not MMO. Is scaling seriously a problem? I can spend a week or so leveling and gearing an alt and that scaling seems to be non-existent.

Well, there's my two cents. On with the chlorophyl...

[Triceron]

One of the problems I have with WoW is that every feature, every possible venue of content, is measured in terms of time vs reward.

Even if I enjoy something like PVP for the sake of PVP, I would have to pick and choose what avenues of PVP would best serve my goals to progress my character, otherwise I run into feeling like I'm wasting my time in a game that is built around time vs reward. This is one of the things that makes me not really care about world PVP; it's not that it's not fun, but over time I've considered it as a waste of time.

For example, a lot of people say that if you want an easier run of content through Raiding, then just do LFR or normal runs and have your fun there. Now the problem I personally have with this answer is that if I'm a hardcore player who is running heroics/mythics and want to just have more casual fun, then running a regular raid isn't going to be that. The act of running a raid is to put in my time to get a progress-related reward, and if I'm already progressing through Heroic or Mythic then the rewards of LFR/Normal aren't an incentive to do the content. And if I'm just doing the content 'for fun' then we have to address the fact that raids themselves aren't really that much fun; they're content that is a means to an end just like doing dailies is a means to an end.

I find the carrot on the stick is often in the way of getting to enjoy things just as they are, and instead we're kind of forced into just doing the content because it gives you a +10 rep bonus or a chance at a new shiny. They add lots of fun little gimmicky fun things in the game that people would only experience once because it's tied to a quest or an achievement. Sure, maybe you can do it as many times as you want after the quest is done, but who really plays the Plants vs Zombies minigame more than once?

It's odd, because I can spend hours and days on playing a Roguelike or a Platformer that has no reward for completion, but I wouldn't even think about running casual content in WoW if it didn't offer some substantial worth to doing.

[Thage]

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding going on here. BFA isn't doing anyone any favors with its design. Casual players constantly feel like they're buried under a tidal wave of busywork (they are) and hardcores feel like there's a tidal wave of needless grind for the sake of grind in order to stay current (there is). BFA is matched only by WoD in how cynically the casual endgame has been developed, although in opposite directions. BFA just throws white-noise busywork that's easy to develop en masse while WoD just gave everyone mobile menu-clicker minigames.

People are getting nostalgic for MoP's dailypalooza because it presented a more structured form of casual endgame, with visible goals, story progress as you gained reputation, and the dailies were built up in such a way that it made sense why you had to reclear out certain strongholds. The problem with MoP was the reps locked behind reps and the Golden Lotus opening up multiple daily hubs instead of rotating those hubs to keep things manageable. World quests just feel hollow even as the NPCs exult your grand accomplishments, because there's both no structure nor story progress to be had until, if you're lucky, a quest or two at Exalted. Let's not even get into how readily they abandoned islands and warfronts instead of iterating and improving designs that had some potential with the systems that were in place. On top of all this, we got fewer dungeons both at launch and from patches.

It's not just hardcores who had a bad time in BFA. Casual players got shafted, too. I can only suppose BFA was designed for the players who found the Laughing Skull rep grind in WoD engaging and stimulating content.

[Zephire]

Why not? I played Battletoads 1hr a day back in old days. And I was HARDCORE back then, because this game is HARDCORE. Dunno about newer hard games, because I don't play them. Meatboy? Boshy? Dark Souls or something like that? I guess, even if you play such game just for 1hr a day - then you're already hardcore.

Dunno. This discussion goes to deadlock. Overall, I just try to say, that I'm not bad player. I just prefer to play games differently. I play more, when game is easier, routine, relaxing and allows me to play it my way. That's it. I bought Terraria at May. After that I've bought two another games, I really liked. And I wanna buy 3rd, when it will be on sale. Problem is - I still don't have time to play them, because I still like Terraria and have lots of things to do in it. I still haven't reached crimson in my first world. And haven't defeated any boss, except Cthulhu. And what about Wow? There is no place for players like me in current Wow. We have group content or hard content. No more options. Barely can keep playing for 1 month not to waste sub fee. And as I buy more and more other games, Wow loses more and more room in my game budget for this year.

Ah, you define hardcore just by the game itself? Right that clears a lot of misunderstandings, thanks

I can relate to not always wanting to put time into something that is difficult. Sometimes I just want to relax and do stuff without really thinking too much about it. Like, I like really good movies but I don't always want to watch them because to me, a good movie requires my full attention. At times I just want some cliché action with predictable plot and good visuals.

I'm curious though, would a speedrunner of Terraria be hardcore or is that out of the question since the game itself defines what is hardcore and Terraria is not (correct me if I'm wrong here)?

Sidenote, I have not played Terraria but defeating Cthulhu sounds like a feat :P

[Kaver]

I dont know why everything has to reward power.

This exactly. Why do all content of WoW have to play into this extreme loop of infinite power progression. Other games are perfectly cable of providing quality content which are not based on some sort of power increasing reward. It’s okay to be “finished” with a character in term of power. It doesn’t have to be an infinite loop of RNG.

[BeepBoo]

This exactly. Why do all content of WoW have to play into this extreme loop of infinite power progression. Other games are perfectly cable of providing quality content which are not based on some sort of power increasing reward. It’s okay to be “finished” with a character in term of power. It doesn’t have to be an infinite loop of RNG.

I think the prime issue is blizzard wrote themselves into a corner. They've eroded every other audience they had away to nearly nothing. Now, the majority of people they have left that bankroll this game (and thereby all other bliz development) are only the type of people who endlessly seek character progression. So they're left with two choices:

1) Risk alienating that group by going away from the "infinite progress" model and hope that previous audiences return and give them another chance (which I see as very unlikely... most people have just flat moved on and won't look back)

2) Double down and get a death grip on the audience they have left, developing nearly exclusively for those types of players and finding every way possible to exploit their mentality and milk them.

[Demithio]

WoW hasn't been "hardcore" for many years now. There are however, many versions of what 'easy vs hard' means exactly. Although raiding in mythic + (or whatever they're calling it these days) may be very difficult; the leveling, normal dungeon running, normal raiding, and gearing is mind numbing easy. WoW on a whole is extremely casual friendly and in fact tuned for casual game play. Its nowhere near the amount of work and commitment it used to be in the early days. Back in the 'day you used to have to really work, and scrape, and grind, and (most importantly) figure things out to progress. Leveling took centuries compared to today. Do a few quests and a few dungeons sprints these days and you'll look as cool as the next guy.

I think the main problem with WoW is that its not challenging or meaningful at all, its just plain boring. The core game has been homogenized and putrefied to the nth degree.