I can't be the only one predicting a permanent level 60 cap

[Shelly]

I'm talking about nerfing leveling at the end of Legion. They outright said they did it because of the complaints that leveling was going too fast. So it is quite hilarious to watch them nerf leveling into the ground and then claim that leveling is too daunting. They certainly didn't see it that way before they nerfed it into the ground, did they?

Hardly, especially if the levels come fast enough, If you can eat a 36 oz steak in the same amount of time as a 16 oz steak, the wieght of the steak is irrelevant and not daunting. There problem was how fast it took to level, not how many levels there are.

1) Show me the blue post.

2) No, you're confusing experience with time. The two are not the same.

[spleen1015]

It's not a pattern. It's what you want. If you are not afraid of big numbers, then you should be embracing my idea. You keep progression and don't make leveling more daunting.

As it is, this was a problem that Blizzard created by nerfing leveling into the ground at the end of Legion in the first place. Nobody saw it as daunting until after Blizzzrd did that.

You should stop saying people are scared of big numbers just because they disagree with you. This is just a passive aggressive way for you to insult people and it is ignorant.

I don't care about the numbers at all. The time it takes to get to max level is what matters. It doesn't matter if its 60 or 120 levels.

Instead of just blindly insulting people, maybe you should look at things from another point of view.

Blizz what they did at the end of Legion because leveling was broken.

[razorpax]

I understand there are people that like it but there are people that hate it too

I think a majority just don’t care honestly lol

Changing the out facing number on its own has 0 effect in game

[Drusin]

Your bubble must be very small, most people like level squish.

Source????

[Omedon]

Source????

Same as the inverse opinion.

[Redroniksre]

ANd the game will die. That makes leveling completely pointless and progression dead. People need to stop being scared of big numbers.

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Which means progression is dead and leveling is completely pointless. Keep increasing the level cap until 100 then bring it back to 50.

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THey don't hate the idea of leveling. Big numbers scare them.

Big numbers turn off new players, the idea alone of levelling to 120 now for new people is daunting as shit. That is why they even included the free boost with expansion purchase. Honestly, dropping to 50 at the end of each expansion is no different then your proposed "go to 100 then drop to 50". There is no loss of progression because currently once you are 10 levels over you decimate everything under that. The -only- thing that is really changing is the number, the experience will be exactly the same not to mention keeping it more reasonable for newbies.

[Cyanu]

I don't think I've seen this discussion hashed out since the leveling revamp was announced, and that surprises me.

So... I don't know where I got the impression, but it's in my head from somewhere that Ion Hazzikostas was put where he is partially to future proof WoW for the perpetuity that, really, they never expected for this game, once and for all. Whether that's his doing or not is debatable, but it's absolutely a thing that's happening.

As much as he claims not to want things to get too formulaic, you can see these efforts here and there: Flight/Pathfinder is an expected formula now, the patch cycle is relatively standardized with some wiggle room, legacy loot is a hard coded and necessary promise for those playing the transmog long game, and our expectations between main patches and "point five" patches have formed a straight line that has us anticipating timewalking right on time each expansion.

So let's look at the leveling overhaul in this vein.

You have your starting area bracket, your "legacy content" bracket, your "immediately prior expansion" designation for a smooth transition for new players being told a flowing story, and then your 10 levels for the current expansion. Pathfinder becomes something you do at the X.2 mark if you wanna fly in current content while it's current, and that achievement becomes of lesser import by the time that content goes legacy if not in the immediately following expansion. That's all very neat, tidy and as soon as we live through it once, going from 60 to 50 to climb it again, it's precedent.

...And it potentially happens again, every two years, as everything slots into its new place on the climb from 1-60. On schedule. Forever. Or as long as the game keeps going anyway.

It's so elegant it seems a sure bet at this point. How the hell does a "level 60-70" 10.0 even fit into this? It doesn't. We'll be 50 again for 10.0, Shadowlands will be the non-optional 10-50 game for new people, and BFA goes fully into the legacy pool of leveling options for veterans.

That's gotta be how this is going, right?

Right?

To be clear, I'm not complaining, but I haven't seen this accepted communally, this... nigh inevitability I'm seeing unfolding here.

this is not something you can do every expansion, yeah it happened once in 15 years, the next xpac is obviously 60-70

a number squish is far more likely instead

[Raugnaut]

Your bubble must be very small, most people like level squish. Even here we had only few threads from people that hated it.



I hate this term so much. Every expansion is hard reset of game and your farming in expansion A is meaningless in expansion B. Only difference is that in older expansions gear was ONLY progression path after max level. But that formula doesn't work anymore and WoD was clear evidence for that.

No, previously, you'd also get extra talents, new abilities, ect each expansion - Disregarding gear, your character would have more utility, power, survivability, ect over the previous expansion. So, yes, there would be things carried over to each expansion.

Now? Not so much.

[rrayy]

You should stop saying people are scared of big numbers just because they disagree with you. This is just a passive aggressive way for you to insult people and it is ignorant.

I don't care about the numbers at all. The time it takes to get to max level is what matters. It doesn't matter if its 60 or 120 levels.

Instead of just blindly insulting people, maybe you should look at things from another point of view.

Blizz what they did at the end of Legion because leveling was broken.

IOn said in one of their vido Q&A's exactly what I said they said. He absolutely did mention that leveling went to fast. That is why they increased the XP required to gain a level in 7.3.5.

I am not insulting anyone. YOU and the others are not looking at it from my point of view. You insult me by saying "It's just cosmetic" and things of that nature.

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Big numbers turn off new players, the idea alone of levelling to 120 now for new people is daunting as shit. That is why they even included the free boost with expansion purchase. Honestly, dropping to 50 at the end of each expansion is no different then your proposed "go to 100 then drop to 50". There is no loss of progression because currently once you are 10 levels over you decimate everything under that. The -only- thing that is really changing is the number, the experience will be exactly the same not to mention keeping it more reasonable for newbies.

Which is why I stated taht you could increase level cap and still make leveling not be daunting by making 1-60 in the next expansion to be done just as fast as 1-50 in Shadowlands. And, yes progression is lost because everything you did is meaningless once you again go back to 50. There is zero point to leveling to 60 knowing you get thrown back to 50. All you have to do is what I said. The number of levels to achieve is not daunting when it takes the same amount of time to do 1-60 as it did 1-50. You ding levels faster.

It's daunting because it takes forever to ding one level. Make it so 1-60 goes just as fast as 1-50 will now and it won't be daunting. You can always revert to 50 later after reaching 100. Doing it after every expansion renders it pointless to level.

[Frolk]

Leveling to a new cap is an okay way to reset gear and to make old gear isnt useful, like secondary stat rating.

[Drusin]

Same as the inverse opinion.

You want a source for this?

You realize people hate squishes?

Will presenting one person who hates squishes suffice or shall I get two to meet the "people" criteria?

[rhorle]

Not certain anyone hates the idea of leveling, but most games forgo it so the number doesn't get stupid. 120 levels to a brand new player is absolutely daunting. They could've stopped at 100, and simply used the artifact weapon as the leveling system of Legion, think of it like GW2's mastery system. They chose not to do that. Now we're seeing a level 60 hard reset, and I'm at least partially convinced it will remain permanent. If we saw Classic + with a level 60 cap, as well as Retail with a 60 cap, they would seem more similar, at least from the naked eye.

I think people drastically under estimate a new player. If a person is new to WoW but has played other games then they will know that levels are not set at a universal standard. The number is relative. If they are a new player to gaming as a whole then yes they might be intimidated by the large number but should also be willingly to learn the context.

This is all important because the time each level takes is just as important as the level number. 60 levels could take longer to gain then 120.

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problem with that is 11.0 will boost it to 80, 12.0 will boost it to 90, 13.0 to 100 and then you're back in the same vicious cycle. keeping it at level 60 is a far better way, especially for new players

But it is the same cycle regardless. Just the perception is different. Because Blizzard can make 1-90 take just as long as 1-50 currently. The current squish isn't so much about the number you have but about the rewards you get along the way. Blizzard wants it to feel more rewarding while leveling up with out really giving you more. They change the perception simply by cutting the number of levels.

So they don't have to really make leveling rewarding since they are now giving you the same amount of rewards in a smaller size.

[Redroniksre]

IOn said in one of their vido Q&A's exactly what I said they said. He absolutely did mention that leveling went to fast. That is why they increased the XP required to gain a level in 7.3.5.

I am not insulting anyone. YOU and the others are not looking at it from my point of view. You insult me by saying "It's just cosmetic" and things of that nature.

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Which is why I stated taht you could increase level cap and still make leveling not be daunting by making 1-60 in the next expansion to be done just as fast as 1-50 in Shadowlands. And, yes progression is lost because everything you did is meaningless once you again go back to 50. There is zero point to leveling to 60 knowing you get thrown back to 50. All you have to do is what I said. The number of levels to achieve is not daunting when it takes the same amount of time to do 1-60 as it did 1-50. You ding levels faster.

It's daunting because it takes forever to ding one level. Make it so 1-60 goes just as fast as 1-50 will now and it won't be daunting. You can always revert to 50 later after reaching 100. Doing it after every expansion renders it pointless to level.

Until you start getting several levels per hour, in which case levelling really becomes meaningless. The whole reason for the squish was that there was too many "dead" levels where you didn't get shit, you would just be bringing back that problem by expanding. And again you don't lose any progress you wouldn't have normally lost anyways, you still are going to have to regear just like you normally do. This also helps them to keep stats down so they don't go wild either.

[Mojo03]

Ya, I'd put my money on it staying 60 forever and dropping us to 50 every new expansion.

There should honestly be like some kind of side legacy progression every new expansion that gets 10 new levels added to it with legacy perks or something, just so it doesn't feel as bad to go backward. Sort of like (whatever it's called) in Diablo 3, but this system is finite and just gives nice quality of life perks. Sort of how they do the family system in SWTOR.

They also flat out SUCK at making people feel appreciated for supporting them, this would help with that.

[MrLachyG]

Too bad i'll not play a game without leveling

I mean you would level. each expansion's prepatch we get squished back to 50 and have to level to 60 again.

[arkanon]

I think people drastically under estimate a new player. If a person is new to WoW but has played other games then they will know that levels are not set at a universal standard. The number is relative. If they are a new player to gaming as a whole then yes they might be intimidated by the large number but should also be willingly to learn the context.

This is all important because the time each level takes is just as important as the level number. 60 levels could take longer to gain then 120.

Although i am not disagreeing with the general idea here, i just wanted to point out that in AAA modern gaming, there are not a lot of games that have the back catalog of expansions like wow. If i am considering trying a new game, the amount of content between where i start and what is current is often a deciding factor. If the game is on its first expac, sweet, no worries, ill get into it and have a crack. However, if i see 7 "dlc", that can be a big turn off for me.

I think the coming changes will help alleviate that a bit, with it feeling more inclusive, but it would still be quite intimidating. I knew a guy who was SUPER obsessed with wow for like, a decade. It was the only game he played. Just before legion launched, he had to take a break for real life reasons, and didnt come back until midway through BfA. He didnt even make it out of legion - we offered to power level etc, but he just felt too far behind and had lost interest in catching up.

[Hinastorm]

It's possible they'll squish us down to 50 every expansion launch, and make 60 the permanent cap.

But I think it's more likely they'll just squish it at 80 or so, again.

[Your Mommy]

I don't really mind. I'd welcome that honestly. Levels are just numbers anyway, and it won't be worse than being stuck at level 85 as the max level (as an even numbers enthusiast, that was hell!)
But I do think that means they'll have to go and work on the entire level 1 to 50 leveling routes/zones for new players each new expansion which seems like a lot of work.

[rrayy]

Until you start getting several levels per hour, in which case levelling really becomes meaningless. The whole reason for the squish was that there was too many "dead" levels where you didn't get shit, you would just be bringing back that problem by expanding. And again you don't lose any progress you wouldn't have normally lost anyways, you still are going to have to regear just like you normally do. This also helps them to keep stats down so they don't go wild either.

No you wouldn't. It's called giving more rewards. All you ahve to do is give ranks for the existing talents. Problem solved. Also, you would not be getting several levles per hour. Adding 10 levels hardly makes it's several levels per hour. And again, you need some form of progression. Resetting to 50 every expansion makes leveling pointless and therefore no reason to play the game at all. Peopl eneed to stop being afraid of big numbers. They can always reset to 50 again when they reach 100.

[Redroniksre]

No you wouldn't. It's called giving more rewards. All you ahve to do is give ranks for the existing talents. Problem solved. Also, you would not be getting several levles per hour. Adding 10 levels hardly makes it's several levels per hour. And again, you need some form of progression. Resetting to 50 every expansion makes leveling pointless and therefore no reason to play the game at all. Peopl eneed to stop being afraid of big numbers. They can always reset to 50 again when they reach 100.

Levelling is pointless though, it has always been pointless. You spend most of your time playing the game at max level, so levelling is mostly just a feels good especially with the scaling we have now. Right now there is no difference if you went from level 1 to 2, or level 1 to 120, you just skip some content. It isn't people being afraid of big numbers, they just are not appealing at all, your solution is just a "lets just fix it later" bandaid. They need something that will last for a long time, not a few expansions, and this seems to be the best way.