Should the game be ruined in pursuit of utopian competitive equality?

[kaminaris]

With a neck level 90 C&S give 66 vers per stack, or 528 vers at 8 stacks. The value change a bit with your neck level but even at 50 (where you unlock essence...) it give you ~400. Can you stop lying to "prove" your point?


Also, this progress was particular. When Limit killed n'zoth, they had a much better stuff than a lot of player behind them, because of corruption. They spent hundred million of gold to buy boe with bis corruption, I'm not saying that 1 month after players had worse stuff but the difference was much closer than previous progress.
I gained ~50k dps this tier, 35K is from corruption, 5K from gems, and only 10K from gear, from 450 to 480, the difference between 471 or 465 is very small.

It can be even 800 versa dude. Versa is for example one of the worst stats for BM hunter. Essences that gives crit and haste will still be better because other essences scales as well. I am not lying, you just dont know math.

And you are wrong again because limit was limited to some small amount of corruption because of corruption resistance. Month later it was another 12 resistance more.

the difference between 471 or 465 is very small

And this is one of the falsiest thing i have ever read. Difference between 471 vs 469 in RAID ilvl is FUCKING HUGE. Not to mention 6 or more ilvls. You just have no idea what are you talking about.

- - - Updated - - -

The issue is that the game system is badly designed. Period.

It was a time when you just needed to gear your toon and you were ready character-wise to tackle heroic and mythic mode.

And if you are unwilling to put effort in getting CnS, that also means that most of the time, you did not put effort in the rest either.

No it's not. Period.

Unwilling to put effort for raiders to play pvp doesnt mean putting effort to get other stuff, that is absolutely false assumption. I would prefer playing 500 islands than to do some arenas.

[Krakan]

My argument has nothing to do with covenants or balance. It has to do with essences and the BS complaint about how they are a "mandatory grind".

- - - Updated - - -



Honestly, I cannot remember a time in WoW where "grinding" was not a requirement. I mean just hop onto any Classic forum and they will go on and on about how much better Classic is because not everything is quick and easy....

The difference now is that the game has systems designed to specifically reward grinding. But the design is very clearly intended to keep what is mandatory fairly moderate, while making what is possible pretty much insane. And it's left to us, the players, to decide where we want to sit on that continuum. That is the opposite of "badly designed".

Then your arguement is even weaker as it's a proven topic.

[Oneirophobia]

The only thing that will bother me is if the transmog and other collectables are locked behind actively being in that specific covenant. IE, if you earn the transmog for ardenweald and then switch to maldraxxus you can't use the transmog or mounts anymore.

Sort of like artifacts.

[Loveliest]

fun fact: casuals outnumber the vocal minority (hence minority). Blizzard will always cater to the largest portion of people giving them money.

right or wrong, its how the world works.

Yes, but you somehow have to prove that having the option to switch covenants impacts the casuals. Your whole point only stands if you are capable of showing how your casuals that make the majority suffer because that option is not locked in.
I think the large majority don't care if you can change because they will pick whatever they like either way.

Here is the thing. I agree with you. With changes being made so that 1% can finish their world race and get to boosting, changes to lessen their effort and make it so they can get to making money out of this game. But that one change about covenants isn't the supreme cause, because the compromise solution (ability to switch) is NOT detrimental to casuals.

Also, you wont find your casuals on mmo champ. Not large majority anyway. People who stay on gaming forums are not really casuals, no matter their progress. As in they do not represent the large majority you are looking for. If you don't believe me, make a poll and ask how many have done m+. Your large majority would answer none, but on mmo champ results will differ.

[Thorcall]

So im not knowing math because i said 100-200 is not eqal to 500+? Also, your exemple for bm hunter is nice, its just weird that almost all top logs bm hunter play C&S if versatibility is so useless for them...

And no, difference between 471 or 469 is not huge, especially this tier. In another raid i could have give you that point, even tho its weird for you to advance that 1 or 2 ilvl is "FUCKING HUGE" when you ignore an easy upgrade from essence, but right now ilvl isn't that important. Its nice to have, but 30 more ilvl is ~10K dps, when full bis corruption is more than 30K dps. In fact, the difference between 471 or 469 ilvl (with same item/stats) is pretty close to the difference between C&S and an essence one rank below .

[kaminaris]

So im not knowing math because i said 100-200 is not eqal to 500+? Also, your exemple for bm hunter is nice, its just weird that almost all top logs bm hunter play C&S if versatibility is so useless for them...

And no, difference between 471 or 469 is not huge, especially this tier. In another raid i could have give you that point, even tho its weird for you to advance that 1 or 2 ilvl is "FUCKING HUGE" when you ignore an easy upgrade from essence, but right now ilvl isn't that important. Its nice to have, but 30 more ilvl is ~10K dps, when full bis corruption is more than 30K dps. In fact, the difference between 471 or 469 ilvl (with same item/stats) is pretty close to the difference between C&S and an essence one rank below .

CnS is only good because its ok dps wise and also gives you damage reduction and has almost 100% uptime on nzoth. Nevertheless it would be absolutely possible without it.

difference between 471 or 469 is not huge, especially this tier. - It is fucking huge. Always has been. And I am saying about average raid ilvl. It is fucking huge. It's a difference between living and dying.

Since you probably didn't know let me show you again math:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...display=scaled

475-476 - 0.7% kill ratio
478 - 2.2%
479 - 8.2%
480 - 16%
481 - 21.8%

Any questions?
And that jagged part before 475 is basically boosts

[Raelbo]

Then your arguement is even weaker as it's a proven topic.

You guys want to argue a point about essences in order to push your narrative about Covenants. It's a point on which I believe you are fundamentally wrong. So I have argued that point. How that affects your bigger arguments about Covenants..I don't really care.

[Demeisen]

CnS is only good because its ok dps wise and also gives you damage reduction and has almost 100% uptime on nzoth. Nevertheless it would be absolutely possible without it.

difference between 471 or 469 is not huge, especially this tier. - It is fucking huge. Always has been. And I am saying about average raid ilvl. It is fucking huge. It's a difference between living and dying.

Since you probably didn't know let me show you again math:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...display=scaled

475-476 - 0.7% kill ratio
478 - 2.2%
479 - 8.2%
480 - 16%
481 - 21.8%

Any questions?
And that jagged part before 475 is basically boosts

This WCL data is, as you note, average raid ilevel. If 20 players are 471 instead of 469, of course that's going to have a significant impact on wiping or not wiping, in the same way as if 20 players had optimal essences vs. suboptimal essences.

This is the difference between a 469 havoc DH and a 471 havoc DH:

[Krakan]

You guys want to argue a point about essences in order to push your narrative about Covenants. It's a point on which I believe you are fundamentally wrong. So I have argued that point. How that affects your bigger arguments about Covenants..I don't really care.

You can believe anything. You are incorrect though.The issue is you not accepting that reality contradicts your belief. Everything your trying to argue has already been proven even if you don't want to believe it has.

[Thorcall]

This is not math, this is a graph for ONE value of upgrade, almost 7 month after a raid is released. You realise that the raid is here for 7 month right? Offcourse the majority of kills now are with higher ilvl... That doesn't mean ilvl is the reason why they killed the boss. My guild killed the boss the first time with 473.6 raid ilvl, in 12:50. Right now, our fastest kill is 10:20 with 476.7 raid ilvl. Do you see the difference? We didn't gain 20%+ dps with 2 ilvl, but between this two kills we got a lot of corruption resistance, the vendor was added and we all got our bis corruption. Corruption is almost all that matters this tier.

Little bonus, everything before 475 is boosted? Shit, guess all our roster is boosted then .

[Krakan]

This is not math, this is a graph for ONE value of upgrade, almost 7 month after a raid is released. You realise that the raid is here for 7 month right? Offcourse the majority of kills now are with higher ilvl... That doesn't mean ilvl is the reason why they killed the boss. My guild killed the boss the first time with 473.6 raid ilvl, in 12:50. Right now, our fastest kill is 10:20 with 476.7 raid ilvl. Do you see the difference? We didn't gain 20%+ dps with 2 ilvl, but between this two kills we got a lot of corruption resistance, the vendor was added and we all got our bis corruption. Corruption is almost all that matters this tier.

Little bonus, everything before 475 is boosted? Shit, guess all our roster is boosted then .

Ilv isn't all that important this tier unless your class uses a corruption that scales off of ilv like gushing or stars. Massive ilv differences but not minor ones.

[Lolites]

Making covenants fluid does NOT affect you.

well some people believe the unlocked covenant will affect them, so it will
some people think they need essence or whatnot that gives them 0,5% more dps, so they do

both are incorrect when it comes to FACTS, but this is not about facts - being a tiny bit more optimalised makes you feel better, same as making stronger bond with covenant makes someone else feel better, so obviously, if its unlocked it WILL affect them...

[Raelbo]

And no, difference between 471 or 469 is not huge, especially this tier.

It's likely around a 2-3% performance difference. Certainly a lot more than a 0.2-0.3% performance difference from the essence.

In another raid i could have give you that point, even tho its weird for you to advance that 1 or 2 ilvl is "FUCKING HUGE" when you ignore an easy upgrade from essence, but right now ilvl isn't that important. Its nice to have, but 30 more ilvl is ~10K dps, when full bis corruption is more than 30K dps.

Except that that there is interplay between ilevel and corruption effects. In other words, without ilevel, your corruption is a lot less effective. Either way, a loss of 2 ilevels is probably at least 2% of your dps since you're losing 2% of every stat. There is simply no way that 30 ilevel is only 10K dps. You'd probably half your dps if you lost 30 ilevels.

In fact, the difference between 471 or 469 ilvl (with same item/stats) is pretty close to the difference between C&S and an essence one rank below .

Depending on class, that difference is 3-10 times bigger.

[Thorcall]

It's likely around a 2-3% performance difference. Certainly a lot more than a 0.2-0.3% performance difference from the essence.



Except that that there is interplay between ilevel and corruption effects. In other words, without ilevel, your corruption is a lot less effective. Either way, a loss of 2 ilevels is probably at least 2% of your dps since you're losing 2% of every stat. There is simply no way that 30 ilevel is only 10K dps. You'd probably half your dps if you lost 30 ilevels.



Depending on class, that difference is 3-10 times bigger.

Depend of the class. I sim it before posting, for me 2 ilvl is 1K dps, or 0.9%, 30 ilvl is maybe a bit more than 10K but not close to 50% lol.

For me the difference between C&S and the next essence is ~450 dps in mono, but in aoe its more than the ilvl, and there is still the damage reduction.

Not all corruption are affected by ilvl, right now most class use secondary stat corruption.

[Krakan]

well some people believe the unlocked covenant will affect them, so it will
some people think they need essence or whatnot that gives them 0,5% more dps, so they do

both are incorrect when it comes to FACTS, but this is not about facts - being a tiny bit more optimalised makes you feel better, same as making stronger bond with covenant makes someone else feel better, so obviously, if its unlocked it WILL affect them...

I mean they are because a covenant will effect your dps closer to 20% not .5%

[kaminaris]

This WCL data is, as you note, average raid ilevel. If 20 players are 471 instead of 469, of course that's going to have a significant impact on wiping or not wiping, in the same way as if 20 players had optimal essences vs. suboptimal essences.

This is the difference between a 469 havoc DH and a 471 havoc DH:

I never once said anything bout individual item level because it doesnt matter. Average item level matter and let me remind you I was talking about ilvl of first kills vs month later.

8.2 method was 10 ilvl lower on average while killing jaina than loot that dropped from raid.
8.3 limit killed nzoth with like 5 or so ilvl lower than dropped rewards.

Month or two later - gear faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar outleveled any possible difference that might have been with having C&S or not having it. And by far I mean astronomical difference.

- - - Updated - - -

This is not math, this is a graph for ONE value of upgrade, almost 7 month after a raid is released. You realise that the raid is here for 7 month right? Offcourse the majority of kills now are with higher ilvl... That doesn't mean ilvl is the reason why they killed the boss. My guild killed the boss the first time with 473.6 raid ilvl, in 12:50. Right now, our fastest kill is 10:20 with 476.7 raid ilvl. Do you see the difference? We didn't gain 20%+ dps with 2 ilvl, but between this two kills we got a lot of corruption resistance, the vendor was added and we all got our bis corruption. Corruption is almost all that matters this tier.

Little bonus, everything before 475 is boosted? Shit, guess all our roster is boosted then .

This is a graph of how much wipes you take vs your average item level. I've been checking these graphs since legion and they are all the same. People who have no clue whatsoever think that 1ilvl of raid group doesnt matter while reality is absolutely opposite. One item level of individual player doesnt mater sure, but whole group? Huge fucking difference.

Corruption and resistance is whole different part of story, that holds true for pretty much all previous bosses including legion.

Little bonus, do you know how to read graphs?
This is from kill past 2 weeks, and all below 475 average raid item level has very low amount of samples thus you get weird results like 100% kill percentage. And that is usually boosts because at this point most groups are at least 475, as boosted people tend to have lower ilvl bringing average down.

[Thorcall]

This graph if only for the last two week? Its even more irrelevant, for the most part this are farm kills, off course people have more ilvl... But people with more ilvl are also more likely to have better corruption, way less likely to use alt or boosting someone ect. What you try to prove is that people with more gear clear the raid more effectively, wow what a twist! Again, what i say about ilvl is only accurate for THIS raid, what you find for previous raid is irrelevant right now, in every other raid yes ilvl was the majority of the upgrade, but not now!

Percentage wise, the average ilvl is exactly the same as individual ilvl. If one player lose 0.5% dps, and if every other player in the raid do the same, the raid dps is lowered by 0.5%, that all. So the same apply with dps gain, 2 average ilvl is still very low compare to better corruption. Offcourse if only one player in the raid mess-up his optimisation, the impact is way lower, but if one player is allowed to do that others player in the raid are probably allowed too. Unless your point is that since you can get carried, you don't need to optimize your character?

[Niwes]

I'd argue they only superficially cater to the really casual players, and that superficiality has gotten worse and worse since the end of MoP.

sadly this doesnt change the fact, that the poster you have quoted (in your post, i quoted now above), is right. blizzard has the data. and blizzard caters to that type of customers, that are the largest audience for them, to make the most money.

stupidly, this part of their customers grows more and more, since they cater to them and attract even more of them. thats the reason why your statement above, about „since MoP“ is also true. this is the reason why the game changed so far away from its roots.

we can also look at it, from Blizzards point of view. They saw these 2 possibilities in the past:

1)
stick to the long term customers, that gettin more and more old, by sticking to the old game design. stick with the dedicated target audience, as mmorpg, and accept that the max niche market is reached, with that dedicated target audience. hope that old ppl staying subbed, and some new ones come in, that are attracted to that niche. accept that the market can not grow larger.

2)
move away from a dedicated target audience and target a veeery broad audience, to increase your market grow. also dont stick to the long term loyal customer base but instead attract more modern, younger gamers, that like fast paced games, served in small chunks. also keep them subbed by good carrot on a stick concepts. accept that anyway, players quit. as consequence attract younger gamers, to rotate them 2-6 months through the game (before they leave forever). go like „every day a new 15 year old kid is born“ instead „cater to longterm loyal customers“ because the later gettin old. while you rotate them through your game, use clever cash grab systems like token or allied races, to make most money, while they are subbed. also try to cater still a little bit to the „old crowd“ to hopefully keep a few of them subbed. but do no longer cater to them. cater to the broad, fast pace audience above. and watch your market growing.

- so, what do you think Blizz did ?
- What do you think produce the better quarter numbers
(the only thing that counts today, longterm investment/profit is gone before millenium) ?
- What do you think is more scalable ?

what had you did, when wanna make most money?

this is the simple answer why the game is, like it is today.