Raider IO needs to go. It's just as bad for the community as Gearscore was in WOTLK

[Kaver]

Not item level, key level (in order to help stop boosting).

That makes more sense. How would you deal with group composition? Blizzard are extremely bad at balancing class utility. Just look at BFA. Getting 3 Warlocks in a group for a +20 Shrine might not be the best idea.

[enigma77]

Yeah Gearscore was so bad for the community, Blizzard implemented it into the game .

[Wuusah]

I have always thought that RIO was more or less another version of GS.
The difference (and the reason it survived longer than GS) is that unlike GS, RIO measures "skill" instead of just "gear".
I personally do want it gone, but I also understand why it is essential to some people.

It measures experience, not skill. That's what people keep getting wrong. It doesn't measure your warcraftlogs parses. It doesn't measure your dps, how well you interrupt stuff, etc. It doesn't show how good a player is. It simply measures your experience in dungeons. That's all it does and that's all it has to do. When you start a +15 SotS run, you don't want to invite someone who has never done SotS before. Rio gives you information and it's up to you how you use that information. For example, you could have someone with 2k but he was never in SotS or you could have someone with 1.4k but he did a +14 in time.

The thing is, for dps you don't get just these two options. You get 30 players who want to join your group. 20 of them are 470+, 10 of them are 2k+ rio, 5 of them are playing high utility chars and you can only pick 2-3 of them. 90% of dps who wanted to join get declined and even 50% of the top dps who are overqualified for that dungeon get declined, simply because there are so many dps. It's not rio's fault that you get declined to dungeons. Rio is not toxic. The players are not toxic. There are simply too many dps players compared to tanks and heals. There will always be a high percentage of dps players who get declined. That's simple logic.

[Your Mommy]

It measures experience, not skill. That's what people keep getting wrong. It doesn't measure your warcraftlogs parses. It doesn't measure your dps, how well you interrupt stuff, etc. It doesn't show how good a player is. It simply measures your experience in dungeons. That's all it does and that's all it has to do. When you start a +15 SotS run, you don't want to invite someone who has never done SotS before. Rio gives you information and it's up to you how you use that information. For example, you could have someone with 2k but he was never in SotS or you could have someone with 1.4k but he did a +14 in time.

The thing is, for dps you don't get just these two options. You get 30 players who want to join your group. 20 of them are 470+, 10 of them are 2k+ rio, 5 of them are playing high utility chars and you can only pick 2-3 of them. 90% of dps who wanted to join get declined and even 50% of the top dps who are overqualified for that dungeon get declined, simply because there are so many dps. It's not rio's fault that you get declined to dungeons. Rio is not toxic. The players are not toxic. There are simply too many dps players compared to tanks and heals. There will always be a high percentage of dps players who get declined. That's simple logic.

I have never said the reason people get declined is because of RIO. RIO however sets a filter, and that's what bothers people.
You have every right to invite the people that you want and think will get you through the content.
But automatically filtering GOOD people because the program deems them not fit is really bothersome.
I completely understand people not wanting to take chances and deplete their keys, and that's why I said in my original post I understand why it is essential to some people. But I personally think taking chances with as many people as possible is what makes the game more live. We're playing an online game with millions of other players after all.

[Wuusah]

I have never said the reason people get declined is because of RIO. RIO however sets a filter, and that's what bothers people.
You have every right to invite the people that you want and think will get you through the content.
But automatically filtering GOOD people because the program deems them not fit is really bothersome.
I completely understand people not wanting to take chances and deplete their keys, and that's why I said in my original post I understand why it is essential to some people. But I personally think taking chances with as many people as possible is what makes the game more live. We're playing an online game with millions of other players after all.

How do you know who is "GOOD people"?

Like I said, when there are 30 dps players trying to join your group, you'll inevitably decline good players. There are just too many dps players trying to do M+...

[Firebert]

That makes more sense. How would you deal with group composition? Blizzard are extremely bad at balancing class utility. Just look at BFA. Getting 3 Warlocks in a group for a +20 Shrine might not be the best idea.

Automated up to and including M+15; unsure how to deal with excess keys at the moment.

I'll link you to my post in an edit later, am currently on mobile.

EDIT: Initial post and two followup posts.

[Bozey17]

just let people solo m+ like they do visions and none of these problems would exist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[korijenkins]

People who think r.io is toxic fall into these categories:

1. they are bad, know they are bad and feel entitled to a carry from other players because that's how they always played their MMO previously. Just having fun with the boys in a dungeon group like in the good old times. Except that those boys are random players and the dungeon is on a timer and at a higher difficulty than they are used to.

2. they are bad but think they are good. The "ELO hell" argument. Other people are at fault, the system is at fault. Everyone and everything is at fault for their current situation, except they themselves. If it wasn't for r.io then they would get invited into so many more groups (and deplete their keys)...

3. no matter if they are good or bad, they simply don't understand what r.io is and instead of googling for an explanation they just make assumptions.

Seems rather arrogant to say that, when I know for a fact I'm better than 95% of the WoW community at just about everything due to experience. My score is likely non-existent because I don't run them, but if I do, I'm going to crush everyone else in the group.

[Niwes]

Yeah Gearscore was so bad for the community, Blizzard implemented it into the game .

yeah

There is a very simple reason, why stuff like raider.IO, warcraftlogs or dps meters will go nowhere and exists until the last Blizz server is offline forever:

Blizz controls what data is accessible. And Blizz will continue to make that data accessible, so that all above stuff can exist. why ? because it is good for Blizzard, when they exist.

Just think about a world without dps meters. magically the boss is down, after a few tries, after enough ppl played/did their shit right. a fight where

- no one knows who did right
- or did not
- no one knows which penis is larger than his own
- no one knows who the noob is
- no „curved only 480 item level“
- no blaming
- no battling
- no competition between players
- no reason to improve, because it is not seen anyway

in the moment you prevent all of this, you kill the most massive carrot on a stick WoW ever had.

and plz dont tell me, for the majority of players in 2020, a dead boss (regardless how) is the top priority, and everything else is uninteressting. that socialized mmorpg times are long over.

Blizz has ZERO interests imo, that raider.IO go away.

[Wuusah]

Seems rather arrogant to say that, when I know for a fact I'm better than 95% of the WoW community at just about everything due to experience. My score is likely non-existent because I don't run them, but if I do, I'm going to crush everyone else in the group.

Talking of arrogance...

You don’t have experience if you don’t run them. You aren’t good until you prove it. Rio is proof.

Just doing something for many years doesn’t automatically make you good at it. You have to actually try to be good and constantly try to improve. You are not good just because you play this game for 15 years.

[HCLM]

yeah

Just think about a world without dps meters. magically the boss is down, after a few tries, after enough ppl played/did their shit right. a fight where

- no one knows who did right
- or did not
- no one knows which penis is larger than his own
- no one knows who the noob is
- no „curved only 480 item level“
- no blaming
- no battling
- no competition between players
- no reason to improve, because it is not seen anyway

in the moment you prevent all of this, you kill the most massive carrot on a stick WoW ever had.

and plz dont tell me, for the majority of players in 2020, a dead boss (regardless how) is the top priority, and everything else is uninteressting. that socialized mmorpg times are long over.

Blizz has ZERO interests imo, that raider.IO go away.

I mean like, do you have ANY meaningful experience in mythic raiding or high m+ (20+)? If you do you should know no one cares about your dps as long as you execute the mechanics properly, you did enough dmg on the prio targets, and team meet the enrage timer. Blame starts when the timers are not met, but when that happens you investigate every possible mistake made by other people, not only their DPS. Also DPS meters let you see who is ignoring mechanics completely like not dpsing add that has to be nuked.

Moreover, GW2 didnt have dps meter, item level, raider.io etc. and community still found their own way to to filter people with incorrect gear, and too low exp for them.

Competitive part of community wants and likes ways to separate themselves from others. If for you that's annoying or it is hurting your ego that your dps is lower than others, and you can't spend few minutes on dummy to practice the rotation, then just stay away from this part of the game.

Seems rather arrogant to say that, when I know for a fact I'm better than 95% of the WoW community at just about everything due to experience. My score is likely non-existent because I don't run them, but if I do, I'm going to crush everyone else in the group.

Funny. You just think you're to be honest. Play few mythic+ runs on higher level and you will see how much you're lacking compared to other players in this area.

[Nzx]

I'm not reading 20+ pages of this thread, but Gearscore was fantastic for the community. It was the first time you had an objective measure to measure your pug choices with and the first time pug group leaders were empowered with the agency to control how long their runs were likely to take. Raider.io's devs should be getting paid by Blizzard for almost single-handedly creating the M+ push gameplay and therefore being one of the key things holding the game together at this point.

If you don't like it, it's probably because you aren't as good as you think you are, and RIO/GS mean that you can't hide being fake achievement addons.

[Krakan]

I don't really want to go back to armory people and use that is what we would go back to.

I am sorry your not very good at the game but players are till going to segrate themselves into groups of similar skill.

[alexs]

no one cares about your dps

Heh, funny. DPS is like an e-penis to top 500 guilds, everyone cares as long as you are dps.
Saying that top ranked guilds don't care about dps is like saying dragracers doesn't care how much horsepower their car has

[Niwes]

I mean like, do you have ANY meaningful experience in mythic raiding or high m+ (20+)? If you do you should know no one cares about your dps as long as you execute the mechanics properly, you did enough dmg on the prio targets, and team meet the enrage timer. Blame starts when the timers are not met, but when that happens you investigate every possible mistake made by other people, not only their DPS. Also DPS meters let you see who is ignoring mechanics completely like not dpsing add that has to be nuked.

Moreover, GW2 didnt have dps meter, item level, raider.io etc. and community still found their own way to to filter people with incorrect gear, and too low exp for them.

Competitive part of community wants and likes ways to separate themselves from others. If for you that's annoying or it is hurting your ego that your dps is lower than others, and you can't spend few minutes on dummy to practice the rotation, then just stay away from this part of the game.



Funny. You just think you're to be honest. Play few mythic+ runs on higher level and you will see how much you're lacking compared to other players in this area.

yes, since i play since 15+ years uninterrupted, i raided myth or in semi hardcore guilds (in vanilla there was no „myth“) „a few times“. even in times, when not even damagemeter or gearscore was born. to my shame, i have to say, that i never did a higher m+ than 18 or 19, iirc. but otherwise, yes, i know what you are talking about. but it seems like, its just that you didnt got the sarcasm in my post. thats all.

[Wuusah]

I just realized that people complain about rio that it reduces players to a number, but at the same time people treat PuGs like lists. People filter out the groups they are interested in and apply for half a dozen at the same time and then complain that they are only treated like a number and not a player.

When is the last time anyone here who complains about rio actually whispered the group lead of a PuG?

[Alroxas]

4. Player doesn't play much:
You don't have to play much. Your score doesn't get better if you repeat the same dungeon over and over again. You need to do every dungeon on +15 ONCE and you are 2k rio for the rest of the season. Every weekend warrior should be able to do that if they're good. And rio even shows your score from previous seasons if your score right now is bad.

But here's the problem, how can a player get into a +15 group with a low (or non-existent) r.io score? Especially if that player is without a guild or a community group (aka friends) that runs M+.

One of the issues of how r.io is used is that generally speaking group leaders heavily factor their decision process on a player's r.io score. And if you're on the low end, then you're never going to get picked.

As a result, the general "grind" is to do several cycles of M+ dungeons and build your score up. Which normally is fine but to a player who has limited time to play, higher M+ may be inaccessible to them.

[Kaver]

But here's the problem, how can a player get into a +15 group with a low (or non-existent) r.io score? Especially if that player is without a guild or a community group (aka friends) that runs M+.

One of the issues of how r.io is used is that generally speaking group leaders heavily factor their decision process on a player's r.io score. And if you're on the low end, then you're never going to get picked.

As a result, the general "grind" is to do several cycles of M+ dungeons and build your score up. Which normally is fine but to a player who has limited time to play, higher M+ may be inaccessible to them.

It’s only inaccessible if you make it. Sure some random guy will not pick you but you have the following options:

1) make your own group
2) join a guild
3) join a m+ community

None of the above requires a large time commitment. It just requires a little bit of effort. If you’re not willing to do anything then I have no sympathy for you.

[Bloodyleech]

But here's the problem, how can a player get into a +15 group with a low (or non-existent) r.io score? Especially if that player is without a guild or a community group (aka friends) that runs M+.

One of the issues of how r.io is used is that generally speaking group leaders heavily factor their decision process on a player's r.io score. And if you're on the low end, then you're never going to get picked.

As a result, the general "grind" is to do several cycles of M+ dungeons and build your score up. Which normally is fine but to a player who has limited time to play, higher M+ may be inaccessible to them.

Uhm, do it like everyone else and up your score? all 5s > all 9s > all 11s...
Ofc one is not picked for 15s if there is no 15s exp available. And exp is the main reason you look at Rio.
You are not supposed to go into 15s without any previous done dungeons near the 15s range, so that you know all mechanics.
Even if you have just 30 minutes a day, you can easily reach the 15s benchmark.

[klogaroth]

I'd argue that if you have limited time, the last thing you want to do is be dealing with all the unknowns that come with doing dungeons with random people that you're trying to convince to take you based on a high score.

What you want if you have limited time is consistency. Not to have to deal with someone who might be terrible, or who might leave half way through, or frankly just someone is a dick so it's not fun to be in the dungeon with them.

Doesn't mean you gotta play the same time every week if your schedule doesn't allow, but if you only got a few hours, trying to find someone who you can plan a few hours with is going to not only be more efficient, it's going to be a better time of things all round.