Blizzard wants to know our opinions on covenants, or so they claim

[Clozer]

Who cares if you can change them or not?

With current balancing, there is one clear winner for 90% of the specs for all situations. So, even if we had the chance to swap, we wouldn't.

[Krakan]

Yes I have seen each and every single ability for every spec and? Question is have you seen them all?

Yes, it is why what you are talking about seems utterly absurd. The soulbund slots don't buff single abilites often unless they are major cds and leggos are not that specific...

Your solution doesn't exist.

[kaminaris]

Yes, it is why what you are talking about seems utterly absurd. The soulbund slots don't buff single abilites often unless they are major cds and leggos are not that specific...

Your solution doesn't exist.

Of course it does as I said before, aggressive balancing. You are only focused on numbers, not on actual design.

For example hunter chakram can be absolute garbage for single target if you put scaling below multi shot. It would become so bad that's not even worth using, but BY DESIGN (since it's multi target spell) it absolutely can excel in aoe situations if numerically balanced. Which cannot be said about Flayed shot.

It is all a matter of getting feedback, producing differential changes, deploying them and getting back to starting point - a feedback loop.

So once you realize that numbers aren't the actual design you will understand what I am talking about.

[Krakan]

Of course it does as I said before, aggressive balancing. You are only focused on numbers, not on actual design.

For example hunter chakram can be absolute garbage for single target if you put scaling below multi shot. It would become so bad that's not even worth using, but BY DESIGN (since it's multi target spell) it absolutely can excel in aoe situations if numerically balanced. Which cannot be said about Flayed shot.

It is all a matter of getting feedback, producing differential changes, deploying them and getting back to starting point - a feedback loop.

So once you realize that numbers aren't the actual design you will understand what I am talking about.

I mean that is still terrible design as it is rare aoe is valued in raiding or pvp.

I get what your trying to say but wow doesn't work that way.

[Elias01]

Because it doesn't. You still cannot understand that it's not crippling yourself. You chose your specialization and excel at it.
Each of them is suppose to excel at certain situation. If there is absolutely no benefit ex:
covenant A is worst for every possible imaginable situation <- this is a problem
BUT
covenant A is best for situation A, covenant B is best for situation B, covenant C is best for situation C, covenant D is best for situation D, <- this is a correct design

And

Class X + Covenant A (lets say best for AOE) = 300k dps on Z targets
Class Y + Covenant A (lets say best for AOE) = 1M dps on Z targets
<- this is a problem, balancing problem

Also

Class X + Covenant A (lets say best for AOE) = 300k dps on Z targets
Class X + Covenant B (lets say ok for AOE) = 100k dps on Z targets
<- this is a problem, balancing problem

And finally

Class X + Covenant A (best AOE) = 300k dps on Z targets
Class X + Any other Covenant = 250-290k dps on Z targets
Class Y + Covenant A (best AOE) = 320k dps on Z targets
Class Y + Any other Covenant = 260-300k dps on Z targets
<- this is a correct design

Same goes for ST but with smaller margins. AOE is hard to keep between like 5% difference but ST should be possible.

Are you insane? No wonder people complain about covenats if they think that this is how balance. should work in rpg games.

This is how you balance rpg game:

Class A + covenant A = 300k dps on boss A
Class B + covenant B = 150k dps on boss A
Class C + covenant C = 70k dps on boss A

Then

Class A + covenant A = 70k dps on boss B
Class B + covenany B = 300k dps on boss B
Class C + covenant C = 150k dps on boss B

Then

Class A + covenant A = 150k dps on boss C
Class B + covenant B = 70k dps on boss C
Class C + covenant C = 300k dps on boss C

You mix and match all classes and all covenants combos and create sitution where ech class/covenant combo will have advatage over others in certain enncounters.

So why dont take top class and covenant combos for ech boss? Becouse casual guild do not have players what own 4 min maxed mains. Not even several mythic guilds can have this type of luxury. There wont be enough players for you to have fully min maxed optimal classes in each type of boss enncounter thata why people wont be excluded.

Yoy would need 4x amounth of active players to have optimal raid setup for entire raid or reorganize entire pug if you will want to be optimal on all bosses. Gl with that. Nobady will ever bother to do this.

[dcc626]

wanting to know your thoughts and doing what you tell them to are 2 completely different things.

[kaminaris]

Are you insane? No wonder people complain about covenats if they think that this is how balance. should work in rpg games.

This is how you balance rpg game:

Class A + covenant A = 300k dps on boss A
Class B + covenant B = 150k dps on boss A
Class C + covenant C = 70k dps on boss A

Then

Class A + covenant A = 70k dps on boss B
Class B + covenany B = 300k dps on boss B
Class C + covenant C = 150k dps on boss B

Then

Class A + covenant A = 150k dps on boss C
Class B + covenant B = 70k dps on boss C
Class C + covenant C = 300k dps on boss C

You mix and match all classes and all covenants combos and create sitution where ech class/covenant combo will have advatage over others in certain enncounters.

So why dont take top class and covenant combos for ech boss? Becouse casual guild do not have players what own 4 min maxed mains. Not even several mythic guilds can have this type of luxury. There wont be enough players for you to have fully min maxed optimal classes in each type of boss enncounter thata why people wont be excluded.

Yoy would need 4x amounth of active players to have optimal raid setup for entire raid or reorganize entire pug if you will want to be optimal on all bosses. Gl with that. Nobady will ever bother to do this.

No, you are wrong. If blizzard produces that garbage you presented people will be denied content. Even most casual ones.

And doing 200% more because of one covenant is absolutely retarded design. Even by casual standards.

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I mean that is still terrible design as it is rare aoe is valued in raiding or pvp.

I get what your trying to say but wow doesn't work that way.

You don't get it because you don't know the principle of class design, foundation and actual math behind it.
Yes wow works that way and it's not even hard to do. Blizzard is just worried about throwing off balance, which is wrong approach.

[Krakan]

No, you are wrong. If blizzard produces that garbage you presented people will be denied content. Even most casual ones.

And doing 200% more because of one covenant is absolutely retarded design. Even by casual standards.

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You don't get it because you don't know the principle of class design, foundation and actual math behind it.
Yes wow works that way and it's not even hard to do. Blizzard is just worried about throwing off balance, which is wrong approach.

I mean I have the math... everyone does we dont have the final math sure but even with out it we can see clear winners and losers for most classes...

Wow hasn't changed in this regard for over 15 years there isn't going to be some magical revolution just because they made the new talent row more of a pain to respec.

[kaminaris]

I mean I have the math... everyone does we dont have the final math sure but even with out it we can see clear winners and losers for most classes...

Wow hasn't changed in this regard for over 15 years there isn't going to be some magical revolution just because they made the new talent row more of a pain to respec.

Have you been deaf for what I have been advocating for last couple of pages? If you have a winner for 3-7 days max, you won't ever have a winner. Now go think about it.

[Krakan]

Have you been deaf for what I have been advocating for last couple of pages? If you have a winner for 3-7 days max, you won't ever have a winner. Now go think about it.

That isn't how it's going to go down though... at best they might nerf a really outrageous one but bench or progression, glad or not will be decided before launch.

[arandomuser]

yeah guys lets listen to preachs opininon about an upcoming expansion and its value of content

youll get wod 2.0 if it was up to him

[spleen1015]

What do you guys think of this idea?

Let folks switch Covenants as they desire. Even if you switch, your Renown stays for each.

Give special rewards to folks who stay in a Covenant for a long time, maybe tiered rewards the longer you stay.

[arandomuser]

What do you guys think of this idea?

Let folks switch Covenants as they desire. Even if you switch, your Renown stays for each.

Give special rewards to folks who stay in a Covenant for a long time, maybe tiered rewards the longer you stay.

yeah just like the rewards youd get for doing your apexis dailies every day
zzzz

if theres not player power behind it, its none existent as a feature

[Elias01]

No, you are wrong. If blizzard produces that garbage you presented people will be denied content. Even most casual ones.

And doing 200% more because of one covenant is absolutely retarded design. Even by casual standards.

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You don't get it because you don't know the principle of class design, foundation and actual math behind it.
Yes wow works that way and it's not even hard to do. Blizzard is just worried about throwing off balance, which is wrong approach.

Ok so tell me you will create raid full of optimal players for boss 1 then you will kick out 70% of raid and go look for people what will be optimal on boss 2 then do this for each boss? Yeah gl with that. Same will be for dungeons and all other content.

[Gref]

Ok so tell me you will create raid full of optimal players for boss 1 then you will kick out 70% of raid and go look for people what will be optimal on boss 2 then do this for each boss? Yeah gl with that. Same will be for dungeons and all other content.

something like that will not happen. BUT you will %100 see hc raid listing with the "apply if you are x covenant rogue/melee etc". for the last few spots they are filling. or in any other form I cannot imagine right now.　Nothing can convince me that I won't see this neither for LF raid or mythic.

[Lex Icon]

so far the main defenders of the system fall into 2 camps. those who don't care about gameplay so locked or not it doesn't affect them and trolls who just wan't to see people be unhappy. so who exactly are they targeting with the current design? i can't really believe any of those would be the desired target.

[Doffen]

One of the things he talks about a lot is how your choice doesn't really impact the story at all. That's basically the whole point of his last video. People are expecting Knights of the Old Republic or something, but picking a Covenant makes almost no different to anything aside from performance. It's the worst of all worlds in some ways lol

Just continuing from the preach thread :P

What I mean is that choosing Venthyr you have already made that choice. So it does in fact impact your story, your characters story. In won't impact the whole story of the expansions, that's true, but it could never be that. Choosing Venthyr you get to experience something else than choosing Kyrian. But it's not only that, choosing what you the player wants to excel at for example is also doing the choice. You would say it's the worst of two worlds, I would say it's the better of the two worlds :P

[Specialka]

Ok so tell me you will create raid full of optimal players for boss 1 then you will kick out 70% of raid and go look for people what will be optimal on boss 2 then do this for each boss? Yeah gl with that. Same will be for dungeons and all other content.

Already more or less the case on beta with some groups looking for x class with y covenant for z dungeons because the y covenant gives a buff inside.

[Othraerir]

how would i know, i can't test them

[Elias01]

Already more or less the case on beta with some groups looking for x class with y covenant for z dungeons because the y covenant gives a buff inside.

And thats fine. As long as there are dungeons what give same advantages to all covenants. You have to realize that guy what is asking for optimal covenant will also be nonoptimal in certain dungeons. And in such situation he isnt in right to ask anything. And if he will people will just ignore his group becouse it would be like 450 itemlvl asking for 475 itemlvl geared players.

And ofc you can always make you own group for content where you are not optimal so yeah.