Classic does this all the time. It does it directly when you talk to Nefarian or Vaelastrasz in BWL - and it does it indirectly in almost every quest you take and finish. I think the most blatant example is Kel'Thuzad's phylactery, though:
That's not really laudable agency of any kind.The phylactery is all that remains of the master of Naxxramas. Your better judgment dictates that you destroy the phylactery, preventing the lich from ever reforming. Thankfully, you seldom listen to that internal voice of reason.
Someone at Light's Hope will pay you hugely for this artifact. Who cares if Kel'Thuzad regenerates to full power?
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
Sure unless you are part of the majority that did not follow the genocidal psychopath. Those people probably would object to being killed, just as you would be objecting over your character being executed after Orgrimmar.
As an Alliance player I approve of your help in reducing the Horde's military strength though. Would have been a lot easier to beat you into submission if you reduced your numbers by more then halve. Keep up the good work.
What was described is loyalists having been railroaded, not screwed over.
She couldn't kill (see: disable) Bolvar and break the helmet until after the Maw was fed enough souls. Her whole goal from the beginning was to cause enough bloodshed that she had the power she needed to break the helm and open a rift to Shadowlands.
The whole "for the Horde" stuff she was doing was just to get enough support that the war would drag on and cause more death. If she was a shithead from the beginning, the Horde - who lorewise already doesn't like her much - wouldn't have sided with her after Teldrassil was burned. On the way to Teldrassil, we were told not to kill civilians etc, as if we were honorable, then Sylvanas had her loyalists run around behind us and kill the civilians anyway. That should have been the red flag to you letting you know something was up with her. She was aaaalways just about wracking up enough soul juice to empower her for breaking the helm.
Now, you can still side with her. She's trying to break death so that nobody ever has to go to hell/the maw ever again. She wants to make death irrelevant. No more worrying about the next big threat to azeroth and our lives because suddenly it doesn't matter anymore. If you agree with that, then yeah, she's morally grey and trying to do an ultimate "good" (in her perspective) for azeroth.
Last edited by Combatbutler; 2020-08-26 at 01:06 PM.
Just reminds me of the DK starting zone, where the LK pulls the rug from under you so you're offed by some paladins. They don't need "evil factions" to succeed, but allowing players to RP-align themselves with one is fun.
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When the whole thing ended up being Garrosh 2.0 after all there really was no point to "player agency". We all did the same stuff, regardless whether we had our heart in it or were double agents hue hue. The promise Loyalists were carrying out a larger plan when freeing Baine etc. was a lie, Sylvanas really was just a bad strategist who got constantly outsmarted by dickweeds thinking with their honor rather than their brains. And yet the world went accordingly, because of course it did. Bonus points in shittiness by using long-awaited N'Zoth as little more than diversion for us while Sylvanas got ready to break reality. Seriously, the whole bit about N'Zoth is glossed over multiple times in Shadows Rising like he was just a momentary nuisance and Sylvanas was the one everyone had their minds on.
I never considered Blizzard's storytelling all that great, but BFA is their magnum opus when it comes to utter shit. It was a great way to kill my quasi-roleplaying enthusiasm for the Horde.
Now you see it. Now you don't.
But was where Dalaran?
Is a weak-ass whataboutism mixed with an even worse straw-man about Sylvanas never doing anything wrong in her life the best you've got to argue against what @Skayth wrote there? Wait, why am I even asking, of course it is. Genn having a history with Sylvanas does in no way negate the fact that he attacked her despite the factions working together against the Legion, in stark violation of his own leader's orders. Which, by the way, had nothing to do with Eyir (who wasn't our ally at the time, as Odyn revealed himself to us and teamed up only at the end of Stormheim), as he had no idea about that at the time of the attack.
/s /s /s /s
It most certainly was a justification. It's literally how she justified the war to Saurfang. You are, surprisingly, confusing justification with main motivation. And the reason why he got to that conclusion rests personally on Genn and his character, combined with the fact that he's close to Anduin. It wasn't presented from the perspective of the Horde wanting vengeance for X, it was presented from the Alliance perspective and how the Alliance member behind Stormheim would continue pressing for war. As such, you are grasping at straws in regards to Dalaran and Taurajo.
Well Sylvanas just turned out to only care for herself. Many of us said from the start that Sylvanas never cared about the Horde. Throughout both Legion/BFA she and Nathanos often said “for the Forsaken” instead of “for the Horde”. It was pretty obvious to be honest. The “Loyalists” were just naive and followed someone who clearly was evil.
Those leaders were in the minority by their own admission. Their own people did not follow them in their desire to stop and instead stuck with Sylvanas. You have no leg to stand on here.
The easiest solution to get out of this unacceptable conundrum of yours would be to stop projecting "u no want consequences" on everyone that even remotely disagrees with you on WoW.
You're like 15 years too late then.
Didn't seem to bother you too much until Sylvanas was finally officially made into a bad guy.
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You already can. RP guilds exist for just such a purpose.
Loved playing a Twilight Hammer cultist in Cataclysm.
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It would've been even cooler if pro-Sylvanas players got rounded up for treason, made the enemy of both factions and every other faction in the game that isn't interested in dying (therefore attackable by Alliance and Horde and safe nowhere)
Really? They clearly knew that she had the power to execute whomever she wanted? Yea no, they didnt. Hence why they cowards. They didnt want to even test her strength, rather they were all cowards and didnt do jack. End of discussion there.
Did I say their system is right? No. Their system has been in PLACE since the clans were on Draenor. (if u want to talk retcons, then since wc2 when doomhammer killed blackhand in the game manual). ITS A BROKEN SYSTEM, but its still the system that is in place. The leaders ALL know about it, but they choose to do NOTHING within the horde. They were COWARDS and TRAITORS according to the Horde. Sure It all works out in the end, they get rid of the warchief system, but it still does not stop the fact that they all had the chance to stand against the warchief before things got to the point it has. It doesnt matter that they didnt know she could one shot them, why? BECAUSE THEY DIDNT KNOW.
They didnt save shit. I didnt see their dumbasses raiding and killing X boss. Im pretty sure I should be damn Warchief with all the accomplishments i have done. And evil Loa? You mean the original loa of death? Sylvannas didnt even know she was going to be warchief. She was surprised her damn self. As to her betraying the horde, she hadnt done that until bfa turned to shit, and the writers needed to hurry the expansion up. (cut plots here and there) The Deaths? You realize the cycle of death is broken, and has been for a while, and everyone has been going to the maw... right? Just saying, that a coincidence, if she purposefully sending the powerful individuals to the maw, where a "tyrant" is, or did someone not actually read all the spoilers yet? she could have killed our leaders, but she didnt.... hmmmmmmm. Hell, we kill Nathanos in the prepatch... I wonder where he is going.... Hmmmmm...I can't see how they are Traitors to the Horde if they overthrew a monster that wanted to kill the Horde AND as we know now was only made Warchief because of mechinations by an evil Loa. Sylvanas was the traitor, she betrayed everyone and wanted their deaths for her very own benefit. How is this a "Maybe?" on the right reasons? They. Saved. Your. Lifes. Are you unsure if your character wants to be fed to the hungering darkness or something?
Yes in the absolute technical sense they are traitors, but so is everyone that ever ran Siege of Orgrimmar and attacked Garrosh.
He was legitimate Warchief the entire time (because no one beat him in Mak'gorah). In fact Thrall was never legitimate because the other Horde leaders do not get to decide that. By pure Horde law Garrosh was Warchief until Thrall killed him in Mak'gorah. Thrall was then technically Warchief and still is.
What does a horn usually mean in war? They are routed, fall back. Horde held out as long as they could, not their fault that the Alliance took it the wrong way.You could just as well say that the Horde struck first by leaving the Alliance to die on the Broken Shore. Where were Sylvanas' Val'kyr when Varian needed evac for example?
I don't begrudge them that they left. Their position was overrun. But doing it without at least trying to help the Alliance to get away too or warning them at the very least, was spitting on what tender bond they had developing.
Also: "Petty" revenge? Petty? Really? That Banshee blighted his lands (against her Warchiefs order btw.) and murdered his son. Gleefully, I might add. And you call that petty?
And it is Petty Revenge. It really is. Is it justifiable revenge? definitely. But its still petty during a war with the Legion. He was taking advantage of the chaos. He wants her head? fine, do it after the war with the legion. But what he did was stupid. He preemptively first struck an ally, because of revenge. It doesnt matter that it turned out to be a "good thing," which it may not have. (Odyn is the villain between him and Helya, or do u not know that lore.) Genn still let his emotions take advantage of him to try and kill sylvannas.
Alliance did instigate it... or did noone play stormheim? Doesnt matter that she was doing something "evil," until she was.What they should have done, was to watch and play espionage, and then struck at the end of the storyline, seeing how she was trying to enslave a current "ally" of both parties (warrior class ally). But right now, ur trying to cover up a wrong with a right.
She was forced to, by garrosh. or do you not remember the cataclysm storyline? She needed to show that she was still apart of the horde, post Putress.
No, it doesnt. Hence why I am against what happened with teldrassil.
Actually, no. That's the Horde, really. I mean, just look at Brennadam, in Stormsong Valley: Horde soldiers were killing civilians, hanging their dead bodies on the walls, and there's even a Horde soldier (rare mob) that gleefully announces their joy at the idea of killing a healer and a bunch of injured civilians. And that Horde soldier was a troll, if memory serves.