Blizzard screws the Loyalists over in Shadowlands

[Dazmalak]

WoW isn't such a game, so hypotheticals don't really apply here.

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And neither is Sylvanas now. Nor are any of her prospective loyalists.

You're right. WoW isn't such a game, that's why I'm bitching about it. It has no story nuance even though it has a ton of potential for it. Sylvanas loyalists getting no ending, whether it be good or bad, is a dropped ball on Blizzards part.

[Aucald]

Which is funny since classic never tells you what your character feels/thinks.

Classic does this all the time. It does it directly when you talk to Nefarian or Vaelastrasz in BWL - and it does it indirectly in almost every quest you take and finish. I think the most blatant example is Kel'Thuzad's phylactery, though:

The phylactery is all that remains of the master of Naxxramas. Your better judgment dictates that you destroy the phylactery, preventing the lich from ever reforming. Thankfully, you seldom listen to that internal voice of reason.

Someone at Light's Hope will pay you hugely for this artifact. Who cares if Kel'Thuzad regenerates to full power?

That's not really laudable agency of any kind.

[Combatbutler]

Classic does this all the time. It does it directly when you talk to Nefarian or Vaelastrasz in BWL - and it does it indirectly in almost every quest you take and finish. I think the most blatant example is Kel'Thuzad's phylactery, though:

Never forget your playable character will murder people for their hats, if someone gives them a few silver for it.


One of the greatest evils that exist in WoW is the PC

[Dazmalak]

I am disappointed that there wasn't an event in BfA where all the anti-Sylvanas players got round up and executed for treason.

True story.

It could have been a smooth transition into the Shadowlands for these players.

Real talk though: Wouldn't that have been a cool event?

That or having Sylvanas' followers executed in the same fashion after she runs off. Either way it would have been cool. Blizz doesn't have the balls, though. But neither does the playerbase.

[Raisei]

I am disappointed that there wasn't an event in BfA where all the anti-Sylvanas players got round up and executed for treason.

True story.

It could have been a smooth transition into the Shadowlands for these players.

Real talk though: Wouldn't that have been a cool event?

Sure unless you are part of the majority that did not follow the genocidal psychopath. Those people probably would object to being killed, just as you would be objecting over your character being executed after Orgrimmar.

As an Alliance player I approve of your help in reducing the Horde's military strength though. Would have been a lot easier to beat you into submission if you reduced your numbers by more then halve. Keep up the good work.

[Raelbo]

What was described is loyalists having been railroaded, not screwed over.

[Combatbutler]

Sure unless you are part of the majority that did not follow the genocidal psychopath.

Think of that next time you are sent to clear out a settlement of a lesser races like gnolls, troggs, quilboar or to kill unborn children etc.

[Oneirophobia]

Yeah completely wrong, I am gay and I support my undead queen

What they did to her was nothing short of character assassination. "Maybe you dont care if your people die aslong as its honorable, but to me, the horde is worth saving. Anyone who disagrees does not deserve to stand among us." Why didn't she just kill bolvar back in legion if she made a deal with the jailer? Because he needed souls? Then you're just making the jailer a pathetic threat. "Oh he's too weak to fight us unless he has enough souls." It's not like the scourge is going to rack up millions of deaths in the prepatch or anything...

She couldn't kill (see: disable) Bolvar and break the helmet until after the Maw was fed enough souls. Her whole goal from the beginning was to cause enough bloodshed that she had the power she needed to break the helm and open a rift to Shadowlands.

The whole "for the Horde" stuff she was doing was just to get enough support that the war would drag on and cause more death. If she was a shithead from the beginning, the Horde - who lorewise already doesn't like her much - wouldn't have sided with her after Teldrassil was burned. On the way to Teldrassil, we were told not to kill civilians etc, as if we were honorable, then Sylvanas had her loyalists run around behind us and kill the civilians anyway. That should have been the red flag to you letting you know something was up with her. She was aaaalways just about wracking up enough soul juice to empower her for breaking the helm.


Now, you can still side with her. She's trying to break death so that nobody ever has to go to hell/the maw ever again. She wants to make death irrelevant. No more worrying about the next big threat to azeroth and our lives because suddenly it doesn't matter anymore. If you agree with that, then yeah, she's morally grey and trying to do an ultimate "good" (in her perspective) for azeroth.

[Combatbutler]

She couldn't kill (see: disable) Bolvar and break the helmet until after the Maw was fed enough souls. Her whole goal from the beginning was to cause enough bloodshed that she had the power she needed to break the helm and open a rift to Shadowlands.

The war of Azeroth is a cosmic speck in the grand scheme of the universe, the whole premise doesn't make sense. All souls go to the maw, a few million from the last war shouldn't really make a dent in terms of power.

[Rozz]

Just reminds me of the DK starting zone, where the LK pulls the rug from under you so you're offed by some paladins. They don't need "evil factions" to succeed, but allowing players to RP-align themselves with one is fun.

[Zuben]

When the whole thing ended up being Garrosh 2.0 after all there really was no point to "player agency". We all did the same stuff, regardless whether we had our heart in it or were double agents hue hue. The promise Loyalists were carrying out a larger plan when freeing Baine etc. was a lie, Sylvanas really was just a bad strategist who got constantly outsmarted by dickweeds thinking with their honor rather than their brains. And yet the world went accordingly, because of course it did. Bonus points in shittiness by using long-awaited N'Zoth as little more than diversion for us while Sylvanas got ready to break reality. Seriously, the whole bit about N'Zoth is glossed over multiple times in Shadows Rising like he was just a momentary nuisance and Sylvanas was the one everyone had their minds on.

I never considered Blizzard's storytelling all that great, but BFA is their magnum opus when it comes to utter shit. It was a great way to kill my quasi-roleplaying enthusiasm for the Horde.

[Combatbutler]

When the whole thing ended up being Garrosh 2.0 after all there really was no point to "player agency". We all did the same stuff, regardless whether we had our heart in it or were double agents hue hue. The promise Loyalists were carrying out a larger plan when freeing Baine etc. was a lie, Sylvanas really was just a bad strategist who got constantly outsmarted by dickweeds thinking with their honor rather than their brains. And yet the world went accordingly, because of course it did. Bonus points in shittiness by using long-awaited N'Zoth as little more than diversion for us while Sylvanas got ready to break reality. Seriously, the whole bit about N'Zoth is glossed over multiple times in Shadows Rising like he was just a momentary nuisance and Sylvanas was the one everyone had their minds on.

I never considered Blizzard's storytelling all that great, but BFA is their magnum opus when it comes to utter shit. It was a great way to kill my quasi-roleplaying enthusiasm for the Horde.

I rolled a dice which path to take, each time a choice was presented. It was garbage either way.

Alliance side was even worse

[Mehrunes]

So true. Sylvanas, who has never done anything wrong in her life ever, and certainly not blighted a kingdom called Gilneas, just wanted to become immortal by enslaving one of our allies and that evil monster Genn, who has no history with Sylvanas whatsoever, just attacked her for no reason at all. /s

Is a weak-ass whataboutism mixed with an even worse straw-man about Sylvanas never doing anything wrong in her life the best you've got to argue against what @Skayth wrote there? Wait, why am I even asking, of course it is. Genn having a history with Sylvanas does in no way negate the fact that he attacked her despite the factions working together against the Legion, in stark violation of his own leader's orders. Which, by the way, had nothing to do with Eyir (who wasn't our ally at the time, as Odyn revealed himself to us and teamed up only at the end of Stormheim), as he had no idea about that at the time of the attack.

/s /s /s /s

Stormheim was AN EXCUSE not JUSTIFICATION. Sylvanas started a war because she needed people to die, without Stormheim she'd have taken Dalaran or Taurajo as an excuse. How did this not get through by now? She started the war because she wanted to start a war, stop believing her propaganda like a sheep.

It most certainly was a justification. It's literally how she justified the war to Saurfang. You are, surprisingly, confusing justification with main motivation. And the reason why he got to that conclusion rests personally on Genn and his character, combined with the fact that he's close to Anduin. It wasn't presented from the perspective of the Horde wanting vengeance for X, it was presented from the Alliance perspective and how the Alliance member behind Stormheim would continue pressing for war. As such, you are grasping at straws in regards to Dalaran and Taurajo.

[Kaver]

This is what light a fire in my belly.
When the ending of BFA faction war happened I was pissed off at the mediocre writing, that Sylvannas' cry "You are all nothing." suddenly turns the whole Horde on her. But then I was like, "well, what's happened, happened I made my choices and when the time comes I'll stand where I stood" since I played the forsaken loyalist.
And then this happens...


Blizzard can go faf itself with its ineptitude and creative bankruptcy.
Esecially when they brag about "it's an RPG".

Well Sylvanas just turned out to only care for herself. Many of us said from the start that Sylvanas never cared about the Horde. Throughout both Legion/BFA she and Nathanos often said “for the Forsaken” instead of “for the Horde”. It was pretty obvious to be honest. The “Loyalists” were just naive and followed someone who clearly was evil.

[Mehrunes]

Soldiers will fight even if they are not invested in the War, but dont bother Answering. Read whatever you want in the story. If you think that "All the Horde is totally invested in the war", when almost all other Leaders say: "Hey we should stop"

Those leaders were in the minority by their own admission. Their own people did not follow them in their desire to stop and instead stuck with Sylvanas. You have no leg to stand on here.

Also I accuse the people that want to play an evil character in WoW of wanting to play evil but without consequence and only then. If they had to suffer the consequences of other evil characters they wouldn't demand this and in fact will demand to be safed by game mechanics when they clearly made the wrong choice themselves.

I do not accept this "evil without consequence" for a simple reason: It makes my character and everyone else look stupid for allowing them to keep breathing. We are either too stupid to notice they are dangerously evil or too stupid to do anything about it.

Neither is acceptable for me. I simply refuse to have my character dumbed down because someone wants to play an evil genius that is protected by game mechanics.

The easiest solution to get out of this unacceptable conundrum of yours would be to stop projecting "u no want consequences" on everyone that even remotely disagrees with you on WoW.

[Yarathir]

You're right. WoW isn't such a game, that's why I'm bitching about it. It has no story nuance even though it has a ton of potential for it. Sylvanas loyalists getting no ending, whether it be good or bad, is a dropped ball on Blizzards part.

You're like 15 years too late then.

Didn't seem to bother you too much until Sylvanas was finally officially made into a bad guy.

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but allowing players to RP-align themselves with one is fun.

You already can. RP guilds exist for just such a purpose.

Loved playing a Twilight Hammer cultist in Cataclysm.

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I am disappointed that there wasn't an event in BfA where all the anti-Sylvanas players got round up and executed for treason.

True story.

It could have been a smooth transition into the Shadowlands for these players.

Real talk though: Wouldn't that have been a cool event?

It would've been even cooler if pro-Sylvanas players got rounded up for treason, made the enemy of both factions and every other faction in the game that isn't interested in dying (therefore attackable by Alliance and Horde and safe nowhere)

[Mehrunes]

It also seems like keeping the gift of Nzoth hasn't had any impact at all despite what has been said in Blizzcon.

From what I recall it made you understand N'Zoth's minions. Which, arguably, has more impact than the loyalist lol-choice.

[Yarathir]

It also seems like keeping the gift of Nzoth hasn't had any impact at all despite what has been said in Blizzcon.

Surprised and disappointed it didn't give you the Eye of N'zoth as a head mog. That would've been easy enough to do for them, I would presume.

[Skayth]

And how would that have helped? She would have snuffed each and everyone out like candles, just like she did with Saurfang and would have kept on her course. The problem with the Horde's "might makes right" philosophy that is reflected in Mak'gorah and the Blood Oath is that if you have a clearly evil but very powerful leader you cannot do anything about it.
The leader will kill anyone that challenges him or her and keep on going. There is absolutely no checks and balances in place. If the Warchief is strong he or she is "right" no matter what a depraved monster they are.
That such a system can only end in the weaker people organizing a rebellion against their tyrant leader is only right. They simply have no other way to actually achieve anything.

Really? They clearly knew that she had the power to execute whomever she wanted? Yea no, they didnt. Hence why they cowards. They didnt want to even test her strength, rather they were all cowards and didnt do jack. End of discussion there.

Did I say their system is right? No. Their system has been in PLACE since the clans were on Draenor. (if u want to talk retcons, then since wc2 when doomhammer killed blackhand in the game manual). ITS A BROKEN SYSTEM, but its still the system that is in place. The leaders ALL know about it, but they choose to do NOTHING within the horde. They were COWARDS and TRAITORS according to the Horde. Sure It all works out in the end, they get rid of the warchief system, but it still does not stop the fact that they all had the chance to stand against the warchief before things got to the point it has. It doesnt matter that they didnt know she could one shot them, why? BECAUSE THEY DIDNT KNOW.

I can't see how they are Traitors to the Horde if they overthrew a monster that wanted to kill the Horde AND as we know now was only made Warchief because of mechinations by an evil Loa. Sylvanas was the traitor, she betrayed everyone and wanted their deaths for her very own benefit. How is this a "Maybe?" on the right reasons? They. Saved. Your. Lifes. Are you unsure if your character wants to be fed to the hungering darkness or something?

Yes in the absolute technical sense they are traitors, but so is everyone that ever ran Siege of Orgrimmar and attacked Garrosh.

He was legitimate Warchief the entire time (because no one beat him in Mak'gorah). In fact Thrall was never legitimate because the other Horde leaders do not get to decide that. By pure Horde law Garrosh was Warchief until Thrall killed him in Mak'gorah. Thrall was then technically Warchief and still is.

They didnt save shit. I didnt see their dumbasses raiding and killing X boss. Im pretty sure I should be damn Warchief with all the accomplishments i have done. And evil Loa? You mean the original loa of death? Sylvannas didnt even know she was going to be warchief. She was surprised her damn self. As to her betraying the horde, she hadnt done that until bfa turned to shit, and the writers needed to hurry the expansion up. (cut plots here and there) The Deaths? You realize the cycle of death is broken, and has been for a while, and everyone has been going to the maw... right? Just saying, that a coincidence, if she purposefully sending the powerful individuals to the maw, where a "tyrant" is, or did someone not actually read all the spoilers yet? she could have killed our leaders, but she didnt.... hmmmmmmm. Hell, we kill Nathanos in the prepatch... I wonder where he is going.... Hmmmmm...

You could just as well say that the Horde struck first by leaving the Alliance to die on the Broken Shore. Where were Sylvanas' Val'kyr when Varian needed evac for example?
I don't begrudge them that they left. Their position was overrun. But doing it without at least trying to help the Alliance to get away too or warning them at the very least, was spitting on what tender bond they had developing.

Also: "Petty" revenge? Petty? Really? That Banshee blighted his lands (against her Warchiefs order btw.) and murdered his son. Gleefully, I might add. And you call that petty?

What does a horn usually mean in war? They are routed, fall back. Horde held out as long as they could, not their fault that the Alliance took it the wrong way.

And it is Petty Revenge. It really is. Is it justifiable revenge? definitely. But its still petty during a war with the Legion. He was taking advantage of the chaos. He wants her head? fine, do it after the war with the legion. But what he did was stupid. He preemptively first struck an ally, because of revenge. It doesnt matter that it turned out to be a "good thing," which it may not have. (Odyn is the villain between him and Helya, or do u not know that lore.) Genn still let his emotions take advantage of him to try and kill sylvannas.

If Sylvanas can pretend that the Alliance instigated it all, Genn can just pretend he knew Sylvanas was up to something bad and then point to the fact that he found her using an item to ENSLAVE A TITAN WATCHER to prove his case.

(also, 'forced' to attack Gilneas, lol..)

Alliance did instigate it... or did noone play stormheim? Doesnt matter that she was doing something "evil," until she was.What they should have done, was to watch and play espionage, and then struck at the end of the storyline, seeing how she was trying to enslave a current "ally" of both parties (warrior class ally). But right now, ur trying to cover up a wrong with a right.

She was forced to, by garrosh. or do you not remember the cataclysm storyline? She needed to show that she was still apart of the horde, post Putress.

Because a single battle in which only military personnel suffered and after which it was revealed that Sylvanas was after her own selfish goals... Does not justify a genocide.

No, it doesnt. Hence why I am against what happened with teldrassil.

[Ielenia]

I think you are confusing Horde with Horde Players. ^^

Actually, no. That's the Horde, really. I mean, just look at Brennadam, in Stormsong Valley: Horde soldiers were killing civilians, hanging their dead bodies on the walls, and there's even a Horde soldier (rare mob) that gleefully announces their joy at the idea of killing a healer and a bunch of injured civilians. And that Horde soldier was a troll, if memory serves.