Simple solution to cat-weave dps in shadowlands.

[Wuusah]

If you don't like healing, don't play a healer!

It sounds to me like YOU don't like playing a healer in WoW. Doing damage is part of being a healer. You are playing half a spec and complain that this half of a spec isn't the full spec.

I said this once about FF14 but it also fits into WoW:
Every role consists of two parts.
Tanks are one part tanking and one part maximizing your dps.
Healers are one part healing and one part maximizing your dps
And DDs are two parts maximizing your dps.

[Sharnie786]

What a silly post? Are you sure you do high end M+? If you did you know how important or game changing healer dps is. A healer isn't just a healer, we're part of a group. In m+ that means getting through tough challenges. If you don't have anything to heal do you think it's okay to just stand there and be like, "sorry guys, I'm just a healer, I don't do dps at all."?

If so, what m+ teams are you running with?

[Orwell7]

Well, of COURSE healer dps matters when doing something is TIMED damnit!

There should be a "classic" M+ and this "timed" M+.
What I mean by classic? Just like M0's, weekly lockout. Loot just like M0, but scales with key level.
If you already did an X of that dungeon, you are loot locked in classic M+.

You can fine-tune the system, like a new UI with a toggle. Maybe tune the loot to be one "tier" lower than timed m+, whatever
Maybe doing a +15 weekly for a 465 in chest can modify to require a +18 non-timed for the same 465 weekly. Those are just the details.

The point is that we need a 5-man system, where loot is not dogshit, and it is NOT timed. And rewards actual loot for your efforts, instead of 1 at the end!

[exochaft]

Honestly the higher-end healer DPS (Resto Druid and Holy Paladin mostly) is a bit all over the place right now due to Azerite Trait stacking (mostly with offspec traits) and Corruptions. Neither of those will be balancing issues in Shadowlands... so maybe they'll do a better job of balancing healer DPS there.

I haven't messed around with all the healer specs on the beta yet, but anecdotally I've seen holy paladin DPS in dungeon/M+ and have played resto druid a bit (I mainly tank, moonkin, and resto on my druid). When it comes down to these two specs... well, pull-to-pull it might be a little more extreme, but I think overall your damage meters and relative position with respect to DPS is similar to BFA. I'd say hpally > rdruid for DPS output on average in a key with the community on the beta right now, but the end-run average is that healers are at or below tank DPS.

It generally comes down to how much healing is required when it comes to rdruid, and hpally is less affected in this regard due to their design. Cat-weaving only works if the HoT's can keep the group stable, and some of the content is not that forgiving right now. However, there is potential for massive burst DPS by resto druids and hpally, depending upon covenant choices. For rdruid, Heart of the Wild as a 5min off-role cooldown can be used to great effect, and I personally like using HotW + Convoke the Spirits for burst DPS. Also, the change to Affinities may alter off-role DPS since there are CC's tied to them, such as Typhoon only being available if you take Balance Affinity. I personally enjoy going Balance Affinity since moonkin is my off-role, as you do have access to Eclipses by default and it doesn't require you to be in melee. Plus, Balance Affinity moonkin form + HotW + Convoke the Spirits feels satisfying from a visual standpoint compared to doing the same as Feral, although if Convoke pumps out a bunch of Ferocious Bites then Feral Affinity is probably better from a throughput perspective. Honestly haven't tested it enough to be certain which is more output, I'm just hoping it comes down to player preference.

Anyways, I don't know enough about the other healer specs on the beta. Frankly, I've mostly seen hpally and rdruid on the beta from random people in dungeons/M+, with a few other people as MW and priest (mostly in raid testing). I did see some pretty sick Holy Nova damage from one priest, but considering how the tank was getting wrecked most of the time there was mostly healing to be done instead of DPS. Again, it's anecdotal experience, so I can't draw any definitive conclusion based upon who I've run into alone.

[LordVargK]

Once, in the distant past, the idea of a healer doing damage was linked to periods of people not taking a lot of damage, but it wasn't relevant.

Today, particularly in m+, it is as if you're not a competent healer if you don't dps too.

I particularly do not enjoy the latter.

Once, in a distant past healers were pretty useless most of the times if the group knew what they were doing.

[Flurryfang]

Hmm im not sure a broad 99% dps reduction would be good in dungeons, especially for the purpose of making healers balanced in M+. But i do think, that coming up with some form of damage reduction later on in higher M+ would be a good idea, so that the importance of high dps healers is not that important, compared to the dps of actual DPS.

I think it is important to let healers do damage in dungeons, as it often allows you to always do something in a boss fight. Most bosses don't need constant healing, so switching to doing dps keeps the tempo up throughout the dungeon, atleast if its the kind of experience you want.

[DechCJC]

Again, that would be a problem with encounter design. There should be a continuous onslaught of single target burst damage (on the healer or a dps), sustained single target damage on the tank and sustained aoe damage on the whole party at all times.

So how do u balance that for key difficulties? What do healers do in key levels where their gear surpasses the damage? What's the counter-play for whenever the damage is literally too high? What's the purpose of a healer in lower keys where the DPS can keep themselves alive?

The skill ceiling for a healer that only heals in a dungeon is basically non existent. If you increase the damage it doesn't become harder, it becomes borderline (or even completely) impossible. If you decrease the damage then it's trivially easy. If healers can't dps it drastically drops the skill cap.

What purpose would lowering their damage have if the damage was so high that they couldn't spare globals to DPS in the first place (They'd be drinking half of the dungeon, btw)? If it was so low that they don't need to heal, what are they meant to do? I can't put into words how much I dislike this idea. It's timed content, I enjoy the idea of doing everything I can to make it happen.

I do agree that some specs need some tweaking in mythic plus, I also think that no healer should ever reach the damage levels of holy paladin right now.

[dileria]

I also think that healers should have something to do in their downtime.

Doing dps as a healer is valid and most specs have some tools for that, even though not balanced.

I do understand though that there are some players who want to play a "full" healer and dont like switching between enemy and friendly targets.
It can be a little bit hectic.

What is a "full healer"
I guess the most fitting spec would be holy priest.
Give them a spell which buffs a friendly target, to deal some additional holy dmg for example.

"Divine Wrath"... whatever
2,5 Sec Cast Time, no cooldown, no mana cost
Buffs a friendly target for 10 secs with divine energy. Stacks up to two times.
The next time the friendly target uses a damaging ability the holy priest deals 2k holy damage to the same target and one stack is used up.
Everytime the holy priest deals damage this way the healing of your next healing ability is increased by 30%. Stacks up to 10 times.

low dps, but its something to do during downtime while building up the next healing ability.

[Very rare pepe]

Doing dps is part of everyone’s role. If you refuse to do part of your job, then you’re not good at your job.

This pure healer bullshit it’s long gone. Every global cooldown should be used for something. If no healing is necessary then you should be using dps skills. We aren’t playing Classic anymore where you need to do nothing to reg mana.

Healing in WoW follows the same principle as healing in FF14 these days: ABC. Always Be Casting.

If you’re not doing that, then you’re not good.

Pretty much agree. Pure healer is basically a way of saying, I don't fancy trying to play in this dungeon. I'm gonna half ass it.

The thing I don't agree with is that in classic, on my healers I do dps too, on some packs even with my druid/Priest I will out dps some classes with Nova and or Hurricane/dots. On a TBC server I play when we are farming rep in dungeons, my Rdudu with hurricane competes with mages in AoE farming.

[Wuusah]

I also think that healers should have something to do in their downtime.

Doing dps as a healer is valid and most specs have some tools for that, even though not balanced.

I do understand though that there are some players who want to play a "full" healer and dont like switching between enemy and friendly targets.
It can be a little bit hectic.

What is a "full healer"
I guess the most fitting spec would be holy priest.
Give them a spell which buffs a friendly target, to deal some additional holy dmg for example.

"Divine Wrath"... whatever
2,5 Sec Cast Time, no cooldown, no mana cost
Buffs a friendly target for 10 secs with divine energy. Stacks up to two times.
The next time the friendly target uses a damaging ability the holy priest deals 2k holy damage to the same target and one stack is used up.
Everytime the holy priest deals damage this way the healing of your next healing ability is increased by 30%. Stacks up to 10 times.

low dps, but its something to do during downtime while building up the next healing ability.

I think this is a great idea that helps giving each healer a distinct playstyle, not just in the way they are healing. But the big supporter of all healing classes is definitely shaman, not priest.
Resto shaman could place down totems that buff the group to deal more damage but instead of like back in the days where you place them down and they stand there for a minute or two, they could be short duration. They could also be short range/radius with visual telegraphing. Basically damage buffing healing rains. Back in the days you needed to stick close together with resto shaman because chain heal didn't have a big jump range. Such support totems could bring this gameplay back to some extent.

[Gestopft]

That's a problem with dungeon design.

Cool. How do you make dungeons scalable then? Without it quickly turning into "can the healer handle this?" rather than "can we coordinate as a group to handle this?" Keep in mind, dungeons have ALWAYS been easy for healers in a group that uses their utility effectively.

I think you have a point; there are clearly people who don't want their food to touch, as it were. But I think you've pegged the wrong solution to the right problem. What you're looking for isn't M+, it's Challenge Mode.

[Ragnarohk]

Having to DPS as a healer is what made me lose interest in healing. I dislike doing it, yet i'm expected to. If I wanted to DPS then I would play DPS.

[Cazz17]

This is basically like saying DPSers shouldn’t contribute to any healing. Shadow priests shouldn’t use vampiric embrace, cause that heals and thats not their role. Paladins shouldn’t use word of glory, etc etc. If you’re not good enough to play your class at a high skill cap, that’s your issue. No need to burden the rest of the group & ruin the play style purely because you’re not gas good as you think.

[Gestopft]

Then that's a problem will encounter design. There should inc damage at all times, that only the healer can deal with.

1) There ARE some fights that do that, or near enough. Having that all the time would a) get boring and b) ruin the experience of different dungeons being...different
2) How do you make that scalable? Inevitably, it would eventually get impossible at the high end (and again, where the model becomes whether or not one player can handle it, instead of whether or not the group can handle it), but in order to scale to a reasonable amount, the damage would have to start so low in lower keys as to be basically negligible at the low end. Also boring.

[Shalaator]

Cool. How do you make dungeons scalable then? Without it quickly turning into "can the healer handle this?" rather than "can we coordinate as a group to handle this?"

"Can the healer handle this", yes, that's exactly what I want.

Very tight enrages, non stop unavoidable damage, and one shot avoidable damage.

[Choukyuudan]

I think SWTOR handled this problem the best of all of the MMOs I've played thus far. Healing in that game is very resource intensive. Of the three Healers in that game, two of them run out of resources after casting about 6 heals. The other gets more healing out of its resource but still runs out quickly compared to other MMOs and damage patterns in SWTOR itself. As a result, every Healer has some mechanic to actively recover its resources. So, healing in that game becomes a balancing act between spending resources to heal and actively recovering resources during periods of light healing, and during particularly hectic times, any time you can spare the global for it. Healer damage is only an option if, and only if, healing is light or unneeded and resources are good. As an aside, Healers in SWTOR use their resources for damage too; their damaging abilities can drain their resources every bit as quickly as heals.

I would love to see WoW work toward a similar healing model as SWTOR, as I am in the camp that doesn't enjoy doing damage while healing. A big part of that is that Healer damage "rotations" are incredibly dull and lack any real feeling or impact. Moreover, I selected the healing role to heal, not do damage. I have DD specs for damage when I want that, or even Discipline or Fistweaving if I want to blur the lines. I simply don't want that at all times on every single Healer.

[Shalaator]

I can also think of a thousand ways healers could "fill the downtime" if there is any. Just going with my main Hpriest (old main, cuz I was forced resto druid to go past 22+).

Healers should be able to support damage, not deal huge damage. For example:

Smite: Decreases damage done by target by 1%, stacks 5 times, debuff duration duration 8 seconds.

Holy Fire: Increases all magic damage taken by 2%, stacks 3x.

Chast: Increases crit chance of three nearest allies by 10% for 10 seconds.

Holy Nova: Inspires allies, making them attack 1% faster, stacks 5 times, 5 second buff; dazzles enemies, making them attack 1% slower, stacks 5 times.

Apothesis, doubles the buff/debuff effect of all the above.

Divine Star/Halo, refreshes all of the above debuffs/buffs. Make benediction baked in. Replace with a concentrated flame like ability for tyrannical, when uses extends duration of debuffs/buffs by 3 seconds.

fixt

Things like this. There's a REAL skill cap!

Raw damage...no, can't be balanced.

[Blackmist]

Healers should be DPSing in the downtime, but I hate how certain classes have to go melee to do so. It's not like melee isn't crowded enough, without monks, paladins and now bloody druids in there as well. All we need now is windfury healers declaring themselves a meta, and there will only be priests left at ranged.

[Shalaator]

So can we agree on the general idea of somethign along these lines (not the specifics):

"Healers should eb able to support damage, not deal huge damage. For example:

Smite: Decreases damage done by target by 1%, stacks 5 times, debuff duration duration 8 seconds.

Holy Fire: Increases all magic damage taken by 2%, stacks 3x.

Chast: Increases crit chance of three nearest allies by 10% for 10 seconds.

Holy Nova: Inspires allies, making them attack 1% faster, stacks 5 times, 5 second buff; dazzles enemies, making them attack 1% slower, stacks 5 times.

Apothesis, doubles the buff/debuff effect of all the above.

Divine Star/Halo, refreshes all of the above debuffs/buffs. Make benediction baked in. Replace with a concentrated flame like ability for tyrannical, when uses extends duration of debuffs/buffs by 3 seconds."

This is still accompanied by little to no actual damage from the healer (any healer).

[Jujudrood]

So wait, you want healers to not only manage the health and status of their party members, but also track new buffs and debuffs, both on party AND on targets as well?
Healers already have a good skill cap, being able to weave in damage during lighter periods of group damage, then pivoting to keeping the party alive and in clean status.
Changing this would just make life harder because "you didn't holy fire in time, so the buff dropped u suk" scenarios and such.
Not only that, but it would force the meta to change to whichever healer has the best buffs/best uptime for buffs, taking focus away from healing and putting it more on being a glorified buffbot.

I like that an exceptional healer can stand out in a group, keeping everyone up and clean while contributing some DPS.
This is a combat-oriented game, and while you may be the healer, dishing out damage in combat scenarios is also a fundamental part of the game.
I mean, go the route of removing the damage, then next is tanks, where their damage gets nerfed and turned into pure threat, removing another aspect of tanking that is fun and engaging and turning it into a bore.

Oh, then just for shits, I'll throw this in, but any healer who doesn't want to do damage or just wants to sit there idle during downtimes instead of contributing is only hurting the group.
It would be the same as a tank who just focuses one mob in a pull instead of spreading threat evenly, or a DPS who just does their single target rotation regardless of the scenario.
I applaud all of the healers and tanks who strive to be as effective as possible, keeping everyone alive and getting in some good licks in the process.