Simple solution to cat-weave dps in shadowlands.

[Wuusah]

So can we agree on the general idea of somethign along these lines (not the specifics):

"Healers should eb able to support damage, not deal huge damage. For example:

Smite: Decreases damage done by target by 1%, stacks 5 times, debuff duration duration 8 seconds.

Holy Fire: Increases all magic damage taken by 2%, stacks 3x.

Chast: Increases crit chance of three nearest allies by 10% for 10 seconds.

Holy Nova: Inspires allies, making them attack 1% faster, stacks 5 times, 5 second buff; dazzles enemies, making them attack 1% slower, stacks 5 times.

Apothesis, doubles the buff/debuff effect of all the above.

Divine Star/Halo, refreshes all of the above debuffs/buffs. Make benediction baked in. Replace with a concentrated flame like ability for tyrannical, when uses extends duration of debuffs/buffs by 3 seconds."

This is still accompanied by little to no actual damage from the healer (any healer).

It makes absolutely no difference if a healer deals damage or supports the group with extra damage. You can have some healers who deal direct damage and others who deal damage via support.

What it all goes back to is that you should be using every global cooldown and not just stand around and do nothing when there is no healing needed at the moment.

[GrinnersGrin]

I just smoke weed and play/enjoy WoW.
I am not a child anymore lmao.

[Unholyground]

So wait, you want healers to not only manage the health and status of their party members, but also track new buffs and debuffs, both on party AND on targets as well?
Healers already have a good skill cap, being able to weave in damage during lighter periods of group damage, then pivoting to keeping the party alive and in clean status.
Changing this would just make life harder because "you didn't holy fire in time, so the buff dropped u suk" scenarios and such.
Not only that, but it would force the meta to change to whichever healer has the best buffs/best uptime for buffs, taking focus away from healing and putting it more on being a glorified buffbot.

I like that an exceptional healer can stand out in a group, keeping everyone up and clean while contributing some DPS.
This is a combat-oriented game, and while you may be the healer, dishing out damage in combat scenarios is also a fundamental part of the game.
I mean, go the route of removing the damage, then next is tanks, where their damage gets nerfed and turned into pure threat, removing another aspect of tanking that is fun and engaging and turning it into a bore.

Oh, then just for shits, I'll throw this in, but any healer who doesn't want to do damage or just wants to sit there idle during downtimes instead of contributing is only hurting the group.
It would be the same as a tank who just focuses one mob in a pull instead of spreading threat evenly, or a DPS who just does their single target rotation regardless of the scenario.
I applaud all of the healers and tanks who strive to be as effective as possible, keeping everyone alive and getting in some good licks in the process.

While I don't really heal much anymore when I do I am not going above and beyond making sure no one dies and maybe a little bit of stuff here like cc and what not.

[Gestopft]

"Can the healer handle this", yes, that's exactly what I want.

And I think this isn't a good idea for the same reason that tank threat mattering on bosses was a bad idea. I don't like the notion of tying a group's potential so strongly to one member's role. Of course there will be particular spots where a player hits a wall, numerically speaking, where the incoming damage is too much to deal with, but I don't think it's good for the M+ system as a whole if good groups are ending up with "well, the tank/dps can make the time pretty easily, but the healer can't keep up with all of the unavoidable damage, and there's nothing we as a group can do to make it easier."

Very tight enrages, non stop unavoidable damage, and one shot avoidable damage.

Yes I think all of that makes a fight which is specifically tuned that way to be very enjoyable. But maintaining that sort experience across a whole dungeon in high to low keys? I'm not sure that what you're asking for is scalable. And like I said, I also think that non-stop avoidable damage would a) get boring pretty quickly, b) make the dungeons all feel the same, and c) ruin the balance of proactivity and reactivity that allows for different sorts of healing experiences across different pulls/encounters. Sure, I think that it can be fun to have non-stop unavoidable damage. Just not all the time. One of the things I like the most about healing is the variability.

[Razion]

I don't see it as frequent that dps be expected to off-tank, so why should we expect healers and tanks to dps? If the roles get so diluted that everyone is doing all of them, is there even a point to the trinity? Should the game rework itself to not need dedicated tanks, or healers? Should everyone be able to do everything?

[prwraith]

nah dog.

Healing used to be fun and now that a certain level of DPS is expected that's a hard pass from me

[Gestopft]

So can we agree on the general idea of somethign along these lines (not the specifics):

"Healers should eb able to support damage, not deal huge damage. For example:

Smite: Decreases damage done by target by 1%, stacks 5 times, debuff duration duration 8 seconds.

Holy Fire: Increases all magic damage taken by 2%, stacks 3x.

Chast: Increases crit chance of three nearest allies by 10% for 10 seconds.

Holy Nova: Inspires allies, making them attack 1% faster, stacks 5 times, 5 second buff; dazzles enemies, making them attack 1% slower, stacks 5 times.

Apothesis, doubles the buff/debuff effect of all the above.

Divine Star/Halo, refreshes all of the above debuffs/buffs. Make benediction baked in. Replace with a concentrated flame like ability for tyrannical, when uses extends duration of debuffs/buffs by 3 seconds."

This is still accompanied by little to no actual damage from the healer (any healer).

So instead of "help damage during downtime" we have "mandatory maintenance buffs?"

Healers doing damage is a reward that the group receives for good play. Maintenance buffs would put more and more pressure on one player as the key level goes higher and higher.

[Shalaator]

So instead of "help damage during downtime" we have "mandatory maintenance buffs?"

Healers doing damage is a reward that the group receives for good play. Maintenance buffs would put more and more pressure on one player as the key level goes higher and higher.

Yep, that's right. And they are easier to balance by altering a few numbers in a spreadsheet.

[Gestopft]

I don't see it as frequent that dps be expected to off-tank, so why should we expect healers and tanks to dps? If the roles get so diluted that everyone is doing all of them, is there even a point to the trinity? Should the game rework itself to not need dedicated tanks, or healers? Should everyone be able to do everything?

Because in the context of this thread, it's a specific game mode based on a timer. Extra damage is always helpful. In any high-end content, extra damage is always helpful to the group. The gearing/optimization strategy for tanks in pretty much every expansion has NEVER been "always get tankier," it's been "first make sure you can survive, then go for extra damage." People being able to contribute to other roles doesn't break anything.

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Yep, that's right. And they are easier to balance by altering a few numbers in a spreadsheet.

Dude, why don't you just go play endless proving grounds. It sounds like that's your thing.

[Toybox]

Again, that would be a problem with encounter design. There should be a continuous onslaught of single target burst damage (on the healer or a dps), sustained single target damage on the tank and sustained aoe damage on the whole party at all times.

Then you're instead limited the DPS & tanks that are viable in dungeons instead of healers. By putting out a constant onslaught of damage you're further increasing the viability of classes like rogues/warlocks/hunters while further reducing the viability of classes like Warrior, who have very little in the way of mitigation & self-sustain.

Healers don't need to do damage at all if they don't desire for what, everything up to a +20 & perhaps beyond with a strong group? Once you get past that, it's a case of every single player needing to get as much as possible out of their class both offensively & defensively, & that includes healer damage. Are resto druids too flexible compared to other healers? Probably, but the solution to that isn't to kill healer damage entirely - it's to change how certain elements of it work. After all, the cure for an ingrowing toenail isn't amputating the limb. Besides, like I said earlier, take healer damage out of the equation & resto druids are still absolute monsters thanks to their utility.

[Shalaator]

Then you're instead limited the DPS & tanks that are viable in dungeons instead of healers. By putting out a constant onslaught of damage you're further increasing the viability of classes like rogues/warlocks/hunters while further reducing the viability of classes like Warrior, who have very little in the way of mitigation & self-sustain.

Healers don't need to do damage at all if they don't desire for what, everything up to a +20 & perhaps beyond with a strong group? Once you get past that, it's a case of every single player needing to get as much as possible out of their class both offensively & defensively, & that includes healer damage. Are resto druids too flexible compared to other healers? Probably, but the solution to that isn't to kill healer damage entirely - it's to change how certain elements of it work. After all, the cure for an ingrowing toenail isn't amputating the limb. Besides, like I said earlier, take healer damage out of the equation & resto druids are still absolute monsters thanks to their utility.

With Blizzard amputation is the only solution. Healer dps balance suffers from gangrene.

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I don't see it as frequent that dps be expected to off-tank, so why should we expect healers and tanks to dps? If the roles get so diluted that everyone is doing all of them, is there even a point to the trinity? Should the game rework itself to not need dedicated tanks, or healers? Should everyone be able to do everything?

Because that's exactly what they want, the healer/support role removed entirely. That's been the trend, and now they admitted it in this thread.

I came up with the proposal:

ealers should eb able to support damage, not deal huge damage. For example:

Smite: Decreases damage done by target by 1%, stacks 5 times, debuff duration duration 8 seconds.

Holy Fire: Increases all magic damage taken by 2%, stacks 3x.

Chast: Increases crit chance of three nearest allies by 10% for 10 seconds.

Holy Nova: Inspires allies, making them attack 1% faster, stacks 5 times, 5 second buff; dazzles enemies, making them attack 1% slower, stacks 5 times.

Apothesis, doubles the buff/debuff effect of all the above.

Divine Star/Halo, refreshes all of the above debuffs/buffs. Make benediction baked in. Replace with a concentrated flame like ability for tyrannical, when uses extends duration of debuffs/buffs by 3 seconds.

fixt

Things like this. There's a REAL skill cap!

Raw damage...no, can't be balanced.

And they called it "maintenance buffs." In other words THEY HATE SUPPORT ROLES.

Their ideal Mythic+ would be a 4th dps.

[Toybox]

With Blizzard amputation is the only solution. Healer dps balance suffers from gangrene.

I'd like to see them at least try, as I'm quite sick of Blizzard going from one extreme to the other. I'm still annoyed their solution to people not being too fond of the RMAH in Diablo was to disable all trading outside of a very short party window

[Firebert]

When Ret Paladins and Enhancement Shamen are classed as Healers, I'll start doing some damage on my Holy Priest, because at that point healer actually means "hybrid".

[Jujudrood]

While I don't really heal much anymore when I do I am not going above and beyond making sure no one dies and maybe a little bit of stuff here like cc and what not.

I mean, wanting to heal is a good thing, but wanting ONLY to heal is the problem, IMO.
It's a team effort, and I feel everyone should contribute as they can.
If you CC/interrupt/etc when needed, weaving in utility with HP bars, then good; that's being a good player and paying attention to the situations around you.
But if you stand still for multiple GCDs at a time because there's nothing to heal, nothing to CC or interrupt, etc, you are being a burden to the team, much like if a DPS was to only spam 2 abilities instead of their full, 3 ability kit (jokes aside, the point remains), it would be a burden on the team.
A tank who doesn't pick up adds/pats because they are busy tanking what they want to tank, it's counter to the team effort.

I mean, if you want to ONLY heal, then no one should ever use lock rocks or any heal-related abilities for that matter, right?
No, of course not, because if you have it, and it's contextually appropriate, you should use it.
Just like healers who have DPS abilities and can contribute during slow times that are not requiring healing.
It's called teamwork.
Maybe it's just me, though.

[razorpax]

That means the content is undertuned for the healer and there's not enough damage going out.

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It doens't add to the skill cap. It means the content is so easy, you dont' have to heal much.

There is no skill cap argument if the healer dps isnt' balanced. We're not talking about 5-10% damage imbalance from Hpriest to resto druid, we're talking 400-500%.

Yes, my Hpriest can easily top off a group (why? it shouldn't be that easy!) and spam smite/holy/chastise all day, I still wont even get close to 1/3 the output of a Resto druid.

In fact I could spam smite/fire/chast the entire dungeon and not heal a single thing, and still not do 1/3 the damage of a resto druid who is also rolling a hot blanket.

So what is this skill cap you're talking about?

If healers are bored/afk at 15+, then that means the following:

Content is undertuned.
Incoming Party damage overall is too low.
Dps have too much self healing.
Tank has too much self healing.
Too much avoidable damage.

If you need your healer to heal 100% of the encounters then you chance failing due to the healer

The game has been designed the same way for over a decade this is why we have healers dropped during progression

You think it means the content is undertuned but you refuse the reality that tuning content so high that it cannot be overcome is garbage

[Unholyground]

I mean, wanting to heal is a good thing, but wanting ONLY to heal is the problem, IMO.
It's a team effort, and I feel everyone should contribute as they can.
If you CC/interrupt/etc when needed, weaving in utility with HP bars, then good; that's being a good player and paying attention to the situations around you.
But if you stand still for multiple GCDs at a time because there's nothing to heal, nothing to CC or interrupt, etc, you are being a burden to the team, much like if a DPS was to only spam 2 abilities instead of their full, 3 ability kit (jokes aside, the point remains), it would be a burden on the team.
A tank who doesn't pick up adds/pats because they are busy tanking what they want to tank, it's counter to the team effort.

I mean, if you want to ONLY heal, then no one should ever use lock rocks or any heal-related abilities for that matter, right?
No, of course not, because if you have it, and it's contextually appropriate, you should use it.
Just like healers who have DPS abilities and can contribute during slow times that are not requiring healing.
It's called teamwork.
Maybe it's just me, though.

What I am trying to say is don't expect it from everyone, when I heal people don't die, and if shit goes down and I have the tools to deal with it I will use them.

I just experienced people bitching at other healers and me a few times for not doing damage while I was doing an easy dungeon, and it happens in all level ranges too not just max level now.

[Jujudrood]

What I am trying to say is don't expect it from everyone, when I heal people don't die, and if shit goes down and I have the tools to deal with it I will use them.

I just experienced people bitching at other healers and me a few times for not doing damage while I was doing an easy dungeon, and it happens in all level ranges too not just max level now.

That's fair, and if it's "farm level" content, I wouldn't mind either if someone is a little more lax.
My comments are more aimed at +15 and up, or even in progression raids, should you find some mysterious downtime.
The idea is that a healer can do some damage and, while it may not always be great, it's something and it adds up over time, helping the group as a whole.

[Gestopft]

Because that's exactly what they want, the healer/support role removed entirely. That's been the trend, and now they admitted it in this thread.

And they called it "maintenance buffs." In other words THEY HATE SUPPORT ROLES.

Healing ≠ support. Don't lump them together.

I love healing. I don't like the idea of a "support" role; i.e a role with the primary job of making others perform their functions better.

Their ideal Mythic+ would be a 4th dps.

I haven't seen anyone imply that. I won't speak for everyone, but this is a hard no for me.

[Jujudrood]

And they called it "maintenance buffs." In other words THEY HATE SUPPORT ROLES.

Their ideal Mythic+ would be a 4th dps.

So you want the healer to be a set of shaman totems. Got it.

But jokes aside, I'm guessing this would be only 5man and not raids or open world, right? Not to mention PVP.
Because then it basically makes the class play completely differently in one slice of content from the others, which is weird.
Or maybe all healers should be support-focused only, where they do very little dmage.
We had that before, and what it did was force people to play other specs they didn't care for because they couldn't quest in healer spec.
Or are we saying healers should do no damage in dungeons, but retain damage in open world? That feels weird, like I'm strong, but in a group I am not.

It's not terrible to add some flavor, taking *some* damage away and returning it in the form of buffs/debuffs, but I wouldn't go full bore with it.
Maybe scale back healer damage 10-20% ish and, to counter it, have each healer provide 1 group buff and/or 1 enemy debuff that makes sense with the class.
Maybe Priest can tie in a haste by 2% with Holy Fire, Monks can put a 2% crit debuff with a kick, maybe HPal chucks a hammer that reduces enemy damage by 2%.
Things like that to add the flavor and help replace lost damage by spreading it to everyone else.

I wouldn't gut their damage completely though because that takes away an aspect of the class and further homogenizes all healing classes, removing differentiating usefulness of their kits and replacing it with a gaggle of buffs/debuffs to manage (which in this mass exodus case, would mean each one applies similar buffs/debuffs, else you risk the meta going bananas with the "hot" buff healer).

[Gestopft]

When Ret Paladins and Enhancement Shamen are classed as Healers, I'll start doing some damage on my Holy Priest, because at that point healer actually means "hybrid".

The thing is that more damage is ALWAYS helpful to the group. You can ALWAYS add more damage, but you can't always add more healing, because you can only heal the damage that gets taken. If there's a ton of incoming damage, it makes sense that the healer would be focused only on healing, but also that a Shaman or Paladin might help stabilize themselves (especially if they stood in the bad). And if the incoming damage is light, it just makes sense that the DPS Paladin or Shaman would let the healer or passive healing handle it in favor of doing more damage, and also that the healer would also contribute when they are able.

Pressing a heal button as a DPS player, or pressing a damage button as a healer doesn't make you a "hybrid." It makes you a team player.

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"Can the healer handle this", yes, that's exactly what I want.

Very tight enrages, non stop unavoidable damage, and one shot avoidable damage.

I’m going to go back to this for a moment, because I realized that it isn’t just the tying of group success in pushing higher so strongly to one role that bugs me about this as a potential model, it’s that it fundamentally disconnects the experience of the healer from their group.

Again, I do enjoy hectic fights like that from time to time, but in all of the history of WOW, throughout every expansion and every healing model that has been done, the experiences of the healer have fundamentally been tied to how the group performs. When groups do mechanics better, groups take less damage. When groups aren’t locking down dangerous mobs or interrupting properly, the healer has to pull out more stops and/or gets overwhelmed. This has ALWAYS been the case in all forms of group content. Healer is, by definition, a group role and the idea of “non-stop unavoidable damage and one-shot avoidable damage” would pretty much dissociate the experience of the healer from the performance of the group. And I don’t think that’s how group content should work.