LFR and whether it still has a place in WoW

[crusadernero]

Hey man, you're the one that can't answer a simple question with a simple response.


Plenty of evidence to the contrary. You're just another in a long, oh so long, line of posters that thinks their feels are greater than reals. Reading these forums I can't keep it straight: was the early community all sunshine and butterflies or was it toxic? Seems to change depending on the "feels" being pushed.

Blizzard added LFR to the game so that more people would see the raiding content not because of toxicity. In its current form (during vanilla/tbc/wrath/cata) more people than not could not be bothered with the challenge. LFR was introduced to draw more people into the content. Blizzard added LFG because the system for finding groups at the time was detrimental to the game experience due to how long it took to form groups; not because of toxicity. Convenience made dungeons much more approachable.

I swear, the line for a lfg/lfr thread doesn't start until there are a suitable number of soap boxes stacked at the start.

People also want lfg systems put in place for rated arena, m+ keys and normal/hc/mythic raiding. They want the game to do all the work of bringing people together instead of having to do it on theyre own or rely on strangers. After years of playing this game it doesnt shock me. Thats more or less the core of it. Yes these systems were put in so more people got to see content, but its also there to streamline how people get together with minimum communication and effort.

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I dont believe that they added LFR for the reasons you portray, they said it was for non-raiders to see the story.

That being said, it doesnt mean it could be improved to the better somehow.
Like making it a queueble scenario with some NPCs instead and killing off that long queuetime is one way.

I agree. It could and should be improved, but how im not sure. Im not really sure if adding NPCs to this really will help anything at all.

[Raelbo]

That's false, it's just that Blizzard created this massive tumbling tower of Ilvl that needs to be carried over with each patch.

As I already said, I don't disagree with what you're saying, simply that there isn't this mutual exclusivity that you're implying. I am arguing that complaints about LFR have contributed towards the ilevel of LFR gear becoming pointless. This is true regardless of what you're arguing.

Like, where do you want to place LFR?

Probably on the same level as emissary rewards tbh.

That's the big problem, you basically have to add yet another step between sources like M+0 / Emissaries and LFR.

Or just shift things around and reduce the ilevel gaps between trivial content.

LFR is the lowest form of raiding, thus it rewards the lowest Ilvl of gear from raiding

Which is fine. But as a form of raiding I think it deserves to be the highest ilevel of gear for strictly casual content.

LFR is pointless due to non raiding sources that in terms of difficulty aren't that much more challenging than LFR.

Gearing via LFR is pointless. That doesn't mean LFR is pointless. It's still end game content for, as I understand it, around a third of the playerbase.

LFR used to be the endgame for anyone who didn't raid flex or heroic, because of a lack of any other gearing sources, all Blizzard did was adding alternatives.

I disagree with this notion of yours that the whole point of content is to get gear. Gear is a by-product of doing content.

While this has existed in the past, i think the primary reason now is to reward players who actually engage in not automated queueing system with seeing the things sooner.
After all, people would rather have their first kill on a boss with their guild rather than some random people that somehow struggled through it.

I don't disagree that this could be part of it. But again you seem stuck on this idea of mutual exclusivity. You cannot deny that by releasing LFR later, it reduces the potential "need" of other raiders to run it for gear. I don't believe that's simply coincidence, but rather by design.

That's kinda the problem, Mythic raiders due to the multiple layers of difficulty are pretty much out of reach for LFR ever being viable for them, Heroic and Normal raiders on the other hand...

Even heroic raiders have zero need to ever LFR and only a very small chance of actually benefiting from it. As a heroic raider there are certainly many more effective ways of gearing.

That's the real irony right here, Mythic raiders (you know, the actual elitists) are still pretty safe from ever going LFR if those restrictions you mentioned are removed, the non Mythic raiders however are a different story.

The real irony is that Mythic raiders haven't been in danger of being forced to run LFR for many, many years, but still they complain about it. As for non-mythic raiders, having the option to run LFR for a minuscule (heroic) or small (normal) chance of an upgrade is hardly a bad thing at all. The level of competitiveness in those modes in no way justifies any kind of compulsion to run LFR.

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Thats not why LFR exists.

Yes it is - or at least it's one the main reasons. They have on more than one occasion stated outright that the costs of developing raids was not justified by the relatively low participation rates.

It was made as a response to the wave of crying casuals at the start of Cata.

Lol. My what an attitude you have there! A more accurate of stating this is that it was made in response to player demand.

LFR up until recently always had crap that forced raiders in it so any stats are meaningless either way.

Firstly, LFR never had anything that forced any raiders to use it. The benefits of mythic raiders using it have always been extremely dubious. What is true is that LFR has provided a potential source of small power gains for top end raiders, and thus some have, in the past, elected to devote a small portion of the large amount of time they spend chasing any potential upgrades in search of gaining every possible advantage for the world first race. But if we're being brutally honest, I don't think that items from LFR have ever, in the history of WoW, had any kind of meaningful impact on higher content progression.

Secondly, the idea that mythic raiders (who make up 1% of the playerbase) are responsible for the fact that 50-60% of the playerbase participates in LFR is just laughable.

Its a cancer feature that turned wow into a garbage trash of a game.

Unsubstantiated nonsense. I get it, you have an irrational loathing of feature. Get over yourself.

Nobody likes LFR , even most that still do it.

More unsubstantiated nonsense. As I say, I accept that you and a few vocal people on forums hate it, but I would say that most people who use LFR probably get some sort of enjoyment out of it. As has already been thoroughly established in this thread, the gear you get from LFR is pretty pointless, so clearly there must be some other reason why people are still running it.

[Bisque]

Id also like to add that no one, or there are rarely posts about LFR runs going well. No posts about never hitting 4+ stacks of determination 1 or 2 shotting everything, people working together, people learning etc... Instead most of the posts are "took 6 stacks of determination to take down N'zoth, LFR is a joke" etc... type threads/posts. I am guessing the majority of people who do LFR probably have more positive LFR experiences than negative experiences, but "positive" doesn't get the clicks does it? Nope we have to go with our bi weekly, "get rid of LFR thread".

[Raelbo]

If I recall correctly, the purpose of LFR was a means of non-raiders to be able to see the games story.

As I have been patiently trying to point out to a few other people in this thread, there are multiple reasons for the existence of LFR and, yes, that is one of those reasons. That doesn't invalidate what I have been saying.

Which is absolutely true since it doesnt resemble a real raid-experience in its current form at all. Anyone who is raiding or have raided before knows what I mean.

Just because it's not exactly the same a "real raid-experience" doesn't mean that there's no resemblance at all. But since I do raid, I know what you mean even if you have no idea how to write it.

The question isnt about removing this feature, its on how to improve it.
Do you want to wait over 1 hours for a queue where you might end up on last boss of the wing, and possibly be locked out due to the group being in-combat?
Or could that experience be improved somehow? Thats what Im interested in, that way I might see a value of running that content for my alts.

As I have already said, I think that a significant part of the "real raid-experience" is playing with other people. Therefore I would argue that removing that aspect of LFR would be tantamount to removing the feature. Which is not to say that I don't think there is merit in your proposed idea, as an alternative means of accessing the raid, but not as a replacement for LFR with real people.

If I was heading up the project to implement your idea I would give the players the option to use it or LFR as is. Then monitor what people are choosing to do and use that as a basis for deciding which modes to continue supporting going forward.

Maybe you're correct and most people would rather use the solo version than play with actual people. In which case the game is better. Or maybe the idea isn't nearly as appealing as you think it is and it will gain very little traction. Or maybe different people will prefer different modes....

[Kralljin]

This is true regardless of what you're arguing.

It's not.
The sources that invalidate LFR are never intended for the audience that by your account complained about LFR.

Probably on the same level as emissary rewards tbh.

And i doubt they will do that.

Why?
Because they want people to log more than once per week.

You know, not to have "raid or die" thing happening, it's funny how a portion of the casual playerbase disliked this philosophy, now it bites another part in the ass.

Gearing via LFR is pointless. That doesn't mean LFR is pointless. It's still end game content for, as I understand it, around a third of the playerbase.

Arguing over semantics.
When i say "LFR is pointless" in that context, it is obvious that i'm talking about the gear.

I disagree with this notion of yours that the whole point of content is to get gear. Gear is a by-product of doing content.

That's largely false in WoW, vast majority of content awards collectibles or some of form power (which includes gear).
Progression is core of this game, and gear is power progression.

You cannot deny that by releasing LFR later, it reduces the potential "need" of other raiders to run it for gear. I don't believe that's simply coincidence, but rather by design.

It's probably both, first off that that the Normal / Heroic raiders get to see content a bit earlier and to prevent those people from possibly getting an upgrade from there.

Even heroic raiders have zero need to ever LFR and only a very small chance of actually benefiting from it. As a heroic raider there are certainly many more effective ways of gearing.

Due to Heroic gear from the previous tier being equivalent to LFR from the newest tier, it is most certainly a possibility.

The real irony is that Mythic raiders haven't been in danger of being forced to run LFR for many, many years, but still they complain about it.

Those that are complaining mostly have a general issue with LFR as a whole, but not because they're "forced to run it".

You're just looking for an easy scapegoat to blame, and quite frankly, a lot of casual players love to blame a lot of decisions on the hardcore community, when in reality, the game has further moved away from "catering" to that audience.

Want to disagree with them on LFR as a whole?
Go ahead, do that.

Blame them for LFR not being the apex of casual endgame anymore?

Believing that those "evil hardcore players" who still hate on LFR are behind it, is utterly hilarious on a conspiracy level.
Blizzard abolished "Raid or die", now it's "Raid or maybe don't".
Deal with it, like the rest of the playerbase does.

As for non-mythic raiders, having the option to run LFR for a minuscule (heroic) or small (normal) chance of an upgrade is hardly a bad thing at all. The level of competitiveness in those modes in no way justifies any kind of compulsion to run LFR.

Ever considered that those people do not want to run LFR because a decent portion of the LFR audience is even below their standards?

Why do you think any boss that remotely requires strategy is a complete pain on LFR?
Because of its audience is not capable of handling mechanics.

Take N'zoth.
Heard complains over N'zoth being too hard in Normal or Heroic? Nope.
Were there complains over N'zoth being too hard on LFR? Yep.

These people rather want to raid with their social group and not some random ragtag bunch.
There were people in LFR who couldn't even be arsed to do the Legendary Cloak questchain, that's why Blizzard had to make a requirement for players to have the cloak in order to queue for LFR N'zoth.

[cparle87]

Am telling you now if blizz shipped a expansion with only lfr and lfd aka level 1 they would sell a tiny fraction of what they do now. It just isn't a important part of the game.

Ok, try this analogy. You're in high school walking down the hallway and each door is labelled with one of the school clubs. Band, wood shop, metal shop, gardening, etc. You look in, there's a goodly number of people in each room. Then you look in raiding, there's way fewer. Is that shop going to get as much funding in the next school year because next to no one is using it? No, it's not. So you advertise it, make new stuff, try to sell the club. More people are using it, so it gets its funding.

Besides, why are you even arguing with me over this? This is Blizz's straight up explanation. Unless you're one of those mongoloids who believe that Blizz is an evil corporate overlord that lies and cheats to us at every opportunity.

[Glorious Leader]

Why?
Because they want people to log more than once per week.

.

Raid or die happened because non raid content rewarded so poorly. Their is nothing to suggest that if you made lfr more lucrative (and kept emissaries equally as lucrative) that people would simple raid log for lfr. They could do all the content they liked or non of it.

[Kralljin]

Raid or die happened because non raid content rewarded so poorly.

More like, gear options were not available past a certain point except of raiding.

Now, Blizzard gives alternatives, that makes raiding optional.

Want that raiding sits atop these types of content?
You're going back to Raid or die, then.

Their is nothing to suggest that if you made lfr more lucrative (and kept emissaries equally as lucrative)

In other words, you want to add yet another step just for LFR and Emissaries?

I'm sure that's what the game needs, yet another flooring for Ilvl.
Small reminder, that means Normal has also move up by another tier.

[Krakan]

Ok, try this analogy. You're in high school walking down the hallway and each door is labelled with one of the school clubs. Band, wood shop, metal shop, gardening, etc. You look in, there's a goodly number of people in each room. Then you look in raiding, there's way fewer. Is that shop going to get as much funding in the next school year because next to no one is using it? No, it's not. So you advertise it, make new stuff, try to sell the club. More people are using it, so it gets its funding.

Besides, why are you even arguing with me over this? This is Blizz's straight up explanation. Unless you're one of those mongoloids who believe that Blizz is an evil corporate overlord that lies and cheats to us at every opportunity.

No one would join a lfr club... if anything it's the go home club sure it's the most popular but it doesn't belong with the others.

Hence why it must be banished and locked out of progression.

[Raelbo]

It's not.
The sources that invalidate LFR are never intended for the audience that by your account complained about LFR.

You seem to have difficulty in understanding how two things can be independent.

And i doubt they will do that.

Why?
Because they want people to log more than once per week.

That makes no sense. Even if LFR rewarded equal ilevel to emissaries it's not going to stop anyone from doing emissaries. If anything, the nett result would be people playing more because they'd have a better reason to be bothering with LFR.

You know, not to have "raid or die" thing happening, it's funny how a portion of the casual playerbase disliked this philosophy, now it bites another part in the ass.

Nothing in what I have written says or implies "raid or die". You seem to have this fixation on seeing things as mutually exclusive when they're not. I am advocating that LFR co-exist with other content, which means that is a viable path for gearing, not a mandatory path. Right now it's not on any path.

Arguing over semantics.
When i say "LFR is pointless" in that context, it is obvious that i'm talking about the gear.

Maybe in your mind, but I can only go on what you've written.

That's largely false in WoW, vast majority of content awards collectibles or some of form power (which includes gear).
Progression is core of this game, and gear is power progression.

Gear is power progression yes, but the point of the game is still content progression and the relevance of gear is contingent on the need to progress through content.

Those that are complaining mostly have a general issue with LFR as a whole, but not because they're "forced to run it".

Being "forced to run it" has been the only valid complaint against LFR, and it's pretty clear that most of the changes to LFR have been in order to try and address this particular issue. I don't have a problem at all with them making sure that no one ever is "forced to run it", my issue is that they're trying to make sure that no one ever feels "forced to run it" even when those feelings are completely out of touch with reality.

You're just looking for an easy scapegoat to blame, and quite frankly, a lot of casual players love to blame a lot of decisions on the hardcore community, when in reality, the game has further moved away from "catering" to that audience.

No I am not. Maybe you're just overly defensive.

Want to disagree with them on LFR as a whole?
Go ahead, do that.

Blame them for LFR not being the apex of casual endgame anymore?

Believing that those "evil hardcore players" who still hate on LFR are behind it, is utterly hilarious on a conspiracy level.

There is a camp within the WoW community, championed by some hardcore players, that has been lobbying against LFR since it started. When Blizzard takes steps that align with those demands, attributing those steps to the demands is not a conspiracy theory.

Blizzard abolished "Raid or die", now it's "Raid or maybe don't".

I have no problem with them abolishing "Raid or die". But that doesn't mean they need to go to the other extreme of making raiding pointless. And that is where LFR sits right now. They need to find a spot for it where the gear drops are relevant to characters that don't raid or do M+, without being mandatory to anyone.

Ever considered that those people do not want to run LFR because a decent portion of the LFR audience is even below their standards?

What part of "having the option" are you struggling with?

These people rather want to raid with their social group and not some random ragtag bunch.

That's 100% fine. But there is zero harm in saying to these people that if they want to run LFR, there is a small potential reward in there. Not enough of a reward to compel them to do it even if they'd rather not, but enough that they don't feel like going there is a guaranteed waste of time that they should be spending doing something else that does have some value.

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More like, gear options were not available past a certain point except of raiding.

Now, Blizzard gives alternatives, that makes raiding optional.

Except in the case of LFR it's pretty much obsolete

Want that raiding sits atop these types of content?
You're going back to Raid or die, then.

Not at all. Alternative gearing paths mean multiple viable options. Right now LFR isn't viable.

In other words, you want to add yet another step just for LFR and Emissaries?

I'm sure that's what the game needs, yet another flooring for Ilvl.
Small reminder, that means Normal has also move up by another tier.

I agree with this. Ironically the system which handled this well was WF/TF. It meant that LFR had a low probability of dropping the kind of gear that it needed to be able to drop to keep it as a viable option without having to add tiering levels.

But of course a small, vocal, elitist (but not nearly as smart as they believe they are) portion of the community harrased Blizzard about it until they got rid of it. Good job!

[Kralljin]

You seem to have difficulty in understanding how two things can be independent.

Not if they all lead back to the same progression system, which is gear.

That makes no sense. Even if LFR rewarded equal ilevel to emissaries it's not going to stop anyone from doing emissaries. If anything, the nett result would be people playing more because they'd have a better reason to be bothering with LFR.

It does.

Same reason why the Weekly chest goes up to Mythic Ilvl, despite its difficulty being equivalent to heroic.

Also, M+0 provides equal gear to LFR and you can farm all of them in a single reset, another problem for you to "solve".

I am advocating that LFR co-exist with other content, which means that is a viable path for gearing, not a mandatory path. Right now it's not on any path.

That's just not how it's going to work, due to how Blizzard designs the reward structure.
Because almost any source provides items for virtually any slot, they start to cannibalize each other as people favor the most efficient path.

It's not like M+0 or Emissaries only provide items for a few slots, but can basically deck out your entire character.

Maybe in your mind, but I can only go on what you've written.

If you really want to play stupid here, then i think we end the argument.

Gear is power progression yes, but the point of the game is still content progression and the relevance of gear is contingent on the need to progress through content.

Let me guess, you leveled your character to do the next "kill X enemies" quest because it provided a vastly different experience?

Power is key in WoW, that's why content such as Emissaries actually award these items, because barely anyone would bother to do them elsewise since they've done those World quests multiple times already.

If your assumption is correct, then you do LFR once and be happy about it because you've done that content, the very reason you're arguing with me now is because the power provided by LFR isn't good enough to keep up with other sources.

Here's the crux, a lot of the LFR raiders stop after LFR in the progression ladder because they couldn't be arsed with the rest, hence they're sitting on that gear until the next patch.
The next patch provides a softgear reset anyway where you can grab gear much easier and faster to unlock LFR for the newest raid.

You're basically invaliding your own narrative.

No I am not. Maybe you're just overly defensive.

Considering you started off with "LFR got nerfed because elitist complained over it", i think that pretty much suits the definition of a scapegoat.

You're blaming the elitists, when it reality, the game simply changed (and not in the favour of those elitists i might add) and LFR lost its position due to that.

There is a camp within the WoW community, championed by some hardcore players, that has been lobbying against LFR since it started.

Yes, and?
Show me a piece of content in WoW, i'll show you people that don't like it.

When Blizzard takes steps that align with those demands, attributing those steps to the demands is not a conspiracy theory.

It starts being a conspiracy once you believe that introduction of something like Emissaries has been to nerf LFR.

I have no problem with them abolishing "Raid or die". But that doesn't mean they need to go to the other extreme of making raiding pointless.

And what you fail to understand is that it's very tricky to balance those things.

This is by no means an isolated issue, back in Cata / MoP, it became an increasing issue that 10man raids were vastly favored by the community over 25man.
The end of the tale?
Every difficulty below Mythic became flex, Heroic became Mythic and Mythic is now fixed at 20man.

10man was favored due to having less organization requirements, not necessarily because it was the superior experience.
In other words, the path of least resistance.

The same thing is happining right now with Normal and Heroic due to M+.

M+ awards equivalent (or even superior gear) than raiding and requires less people.
Why bother to raid then when you can also just do M+ for the same gear?

The problem isn't even that LFR is pointless, the problem is that the other paths are more efficient and thus you lose any reason (a.k.a. power) to engage in those game modes.

You can even broaden your view by looking towards PvP, due to no longer a PvP specific stat, a lot of people lost interest in enganging in PvP because it's no longer a seperate progression but directly linked to your PvE progression.
Issue is, PvE progression via raiding and M+ is far more efficient than via PvP, leading most people asking "why should i PvP in the first place when i already have the gear?".
And PvP'ers obviously got screwed because they cannot stay competitive without largely focusing on PvE.

Here is the simple truth you might uncover if you digest all of this:
The reward structure of WoW on any level, is absolutely fucked up right now.

What part of "having the option" are you struggling with?

WoW's history on multiple options providing equivalent gear.

As described above, game modes that provide equivalent gear tend to cannibalize each other, rather than complement each other.

That's 100% fine. But there is zero harm in saying to these people that if they want to run LFR, there is a small potential reward in there.

Problem is, once there is a reward behind it, things get tricky with "wanting to do" or "not wanting to do".
At the end of the day, this game is progression based, rewards provide progression.
Thus, having rewards behind content you don't want to do is always difficult situation.

Except in the case of LFR it's pretty much obsolete

Not at all. Alternative gearing paths mean multiple viable options. Right now LFR isn't viable.

Normal and Heroic also lost a lot of relevance due to M+.
Again, it's not the sole raiding difficulty suffering from this issue.

I agree with this. Ironically the system which handled this well was WF/TF. It meant that LFR had a low probability of dropping the kind of gear that it needed to be able to drop to keep it as a viable option without having to add tiering levels.

LFR didn't have much more value in any other tier of BfA, despite WF / TF.

And adding another tier of Ilvl just further increases the power bloat.
Mind you, BfA takes the questionable honor of starting off with a statquish while also ending with one.

But of course a small, vocal, elitist (but not nearly as smart as they believe they are) portion of the community harrased Blizzard about it until they got rid of it. Good job!

Small reminder on what i posted earlier:

A lot of casual players love to blame a lot of decisions on the hardcore community, when in reality, the game has further moved away from "catering" to that audience.

The lack of self awareness is baffling.

[Sofo1]

I would love for LFR to be an introduction to raiding so that more people that would never go into raids maybe give it a second thought!

[Sezh]

If any raiding difficulty needs to go, it's one of the middle ones. LFR is for a particular audience, mythic is for another. But normal and heroic are for the same audience only with slight variation in ambition. If Blizz were to merge normal and heroic, all target audiences get what they want and we'll be working towards solving the gear inflation issue.

[Twdft]

because the target audience does not want it or does not need it.

Demonstrably false, there are a lot more players using LFR than other difficulties so they actually want it. And since they are unwilling/unable to go higher difficulties they also need it if they want to complete the story of the game.

I suggest you do what you did before: just ignore it. There is nothing in it for you but frustration, so why would you do that to yourself? I don't go LFR either, I don't pvp because that would just be frustrating for me. Etc. WoW has so much to offer that you don't have to do stuff that irritates you.

[arandomuser]

lfr is basically irrelevent since its same ilvl as m0s and its alot easier to get 3 friends to carry you through all the m0s then stay in lfr queu and possibly wipe with a bad group

[Osmeric]

Yeh, that's what I'm doing anyway, but I think you misunderstood me. Yes, people want something like an adventure mode to see the raids.
But LFR this expansion was too much for them. They quit the raids faster then ever before. They do not want raids like this, these people don't like to work at all in any form to clear those raids in those modes.

Players don't react positively when the game sends them the message "you suck even for LFR".

[antelope591]

Taking out tier sets effectively killed LFR. The reason it worked before is because good players had a reason to go into LFR and carry. BFA LFR is what it looks like when its full of only the target audience and boosted chars. And its not a pretty sight.

[Firebert]

Taking out tier sets effectively killed LFR. The reason it worked before is because good players had a reason to go into LFR and carry. BFA LFR is what it looks like when its full of only the target audience and boosted chars. And its not a pretty sight.

You can add powerful trinket procs to that list as well.

[Skillslam]

Can't think of a stronger argument for eugenics than LFR N'zoth
Infracted

[rrayy]

You can't open the group finder, browse for 30 sec, queue up for a normal raid group and fly to the raid? Takes less time than the LFR queue.

because you are guaranteed to get into the first raid you queue up for in Raid Finder right..oh wait.

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Because I never said anything about removing it, I suggest you read the posts you're replying to.

You are trying to overhaul it intop something completely different. How about you simply not run it and let those that like it as is play it? Why are you so hellbent on chainging something you won't even run? LFR has zero effect on you so leave it alone.