Is Classic too easy?

[Rageadon]

Atleast you cant solo raid bosses :^)

[NineSpine]

Almost 10,000 guilds have killed at least 1 mythic boss. https://www.wowprogress.com/

Your argument is nonsensical since mythic raid is a direct apples to apples comparison of AQ40 and Naxx, since both represent the pinnacle of pve raid content in their respective versions of wow. Pet battles are just a minigame. To raid at that pinnacle is a much bigger time investment in retail.

Mythic raiding is a fringe, niche activity. Very, very few people mythic raid. That's just a fact, and your argument is that in order to be a serious progression raider you need massive time investment. Your argument is not that in order to kill ONE mythic boss you need massive time investment. So, you are already moving the goalpost in a dishonest way.

Classifying things as "minigame" doesn't change anything. That's just an attempt to label your way out of a corner. If pet battles take thousands of hours to max out, does that mean pet battles should count as thousands of hours of time investment? If Blizzard said to you "We decided not to make a raid this tier and instead just added tons more pet battle content!" would you say "Well that's the same as a raid because time investment is time investment!" No, you wouldn't.

[OrcsRLame]

Mythic raiding is a fringe, niche activity. Very, very few people mythic raid. That's just a fact,

Lawl? I just linked you the data. 10k Guilds that have killed at least 1 boss on mythic. There's like 14k classic guilds that have killed at least 1 boss in AQ40. So there's less people raiding mythic but it's far from just the absolute tip top no lifers that are interested.

and your argument is that in order to be a serious progression raider you need massive time investment. Your argument is not that in order to kill ONE mythic boss you need massive time investment. So, you are already moving the goalpost in a dishonest way.

You were the one that moved the goal posts. I responded directly to your statement that nobody does mythic raids. It's not my fault if your argument was a non-sequitur. Either way, the reason people don't kill more mythic bosses is because it's fucking hard, both in terms of time investment and execution. It's not like all the people that went to the trouble of killing mythic Wrathion just arbitrarily decided to not kill the other bosses. People stop because they hit a wall, either burnout due to not being willing/able to invest more time into their character or because they lack the skill/team to go further.

Classifying things as "minigame" doesn't change anything. That's just an attempt to label your way out of a corner.

No, I was talking about top end large group pve and you brought up something that has nothing to do with top end large group pve.

If pet battles take thousands of hours to max out, does that mean pet battles should count as thousands of hours of time investment? If Blizzard said to you "We decided not to make a raid this tier and instead just added tons more pet battle content!" would you say "Well that's the same as a raid because time investment is time investment!" No, you wouldn't.

Right, because pet battles aren't raiding. I agree. So why did you bring up pet battles? Sure, I agree, becoming a top pet battle requires insane time investment. Can we move on now or are you going to keep bringing up pet battling?

My point is very simple and you keep trying to twist it into something else. Being at the level of a top end raider in classic is pretty chill in terms of both skill requirements and time investment. Being at the level of a top raider in retail requires you to devote your life to the game.

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Atleast you cant solo raid bosses :^)

By the time you overgear classic raids as much as Rextroy overgears normal Maut, (Late TBC) you actually will be able to.

[NineSpine]

Lawl? I just linked you the data. 10k Guilds that have killed at least 1 boss on mythic. There's like 14k classic guilds that have killed at least 1 boss in AQ40. So there's less people raiding mythic but it's far from just the absolute tip top no lifers that are interested.



You were the one that moved the goal posts. I responded directly to your statement that nobody does mythic raids. It's not my fault if your argument was a non-sequitur. Either way, the reason people don't kill more mythic bosses is because it's fucking hard, both in terms of time investment and execution. It's not like all the people that went to the trouble of killing mythic Wrathion just arbitrarily decided to not kill the other bosses. People stop because they hit a wall, either burnout due to not being willing/able to invest more time into their character or because they lack the skill/team to go further.

Choose your point:

1) Killing one mythic boss requires an intensive time investment.
2) Being a serious mythic raider requires an intensive time investment.

You keep flipping back and forth as though these are the same point. They aren't. Which is it?

No, I was talking about top end large group pve and you brought up something that has nothing to do with top end large group pve.

Right, because pet battles aren't raiding. I agree. So why did you bring up pet battles? Sure, I agree, becoming a top pet battle requires insane time investment. Can we move on now or are you going to keep bringing up pet battling?My point is very simple and you keep trying to twist it into something else. Being at the level of a top end raider in classic is pretty chill in terms of both skill requirements and time investment. Being at the level of a top raider in retail requires you to devote your life to the game.

I don't care. Maxing out all your pets takes a ton of time, but to say "retail has more time investment because of pet battles" would be absurd, because to point to an incredibly fringe, niche activity and claim it makes the game generally require time investment is absolutely ridiculous.

[OrcsRLame]

Choose your point:

1) Killing one mythic boss requires an intensive time investment.
2) Being a serious mythic raider requires an intensive time investment.

You keep flipping back and forth as though these are the same point. They aren't. Which is it?

I did not flip back and forth. Number 2 has been my point the whole time, as I have stated 3 times now. You brought up number 1, and I corrected your misinformation with actual data.

I don't care. Maxing out all your pets takes a ton of time, but to say "retail has more time investment because of pet battles" would be absurd, because to point to an incredibly fringe, niche activity and claim it makes the game generally require time investment is absolutely ridiculous.

Why do you keep bringing up pet battles? I'm talking about top end large group pve, which is currently AQ40 in classic and mythic Ny'alotha in retail.

[NineSpine]

I did not flip back and forth. Number 2 has been my point the whole time, as I have stated 3 times now. You brought up number 1, and I corrected your misinformation with actual data.

Why do you keep bringing up pet battles? I'm talking about top end large group pve, which is currently AQ40 in classic and mythic Ny'alotha in retail.

Because I want to talk about the entire game, not whatever niche activity you personally find most enthralling. If you scroll up I think you'll find that I never once said "Top end progression raiding requires more time investment in classic than in retail". I said that the game generally requires more time investment. You made this about your little mythic raiding club, not me. I'd have the same response to anyone that responded to my general point with "Pet battles take a lot of time so retail requires a lot of time investment!".

[deenman]

People buffed to the tits with world buffs and consumables wasn't the norm for most players in Vanilla either, so well done on proving that point.

rly bad analogy,anyone can get world buffs,doesnt matter your gear or playtime,or skill,getting 30 mages mythic geared to the brim is very different both challenge wise and time investment

also those world buffs scale a player far more than mythic vs heroic gear scales them,and mythic has actual difficulty,as oposed to the classic raids that have none and would fall down just as easily with no world buffs,it would just take 2-3 extra blinks of the eyes

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Atleast you cant solo raid bosses :^)

to be fair in bfa the scaling difficulty from normal to mythic is huge,that normal boss migth as well be last expansion boss for mythic geared people

you know what you can never do in retail?kill a boss naked,retail has its issues,but those issues dont come from a lack of challenge like classic,it comes from how scaling and stats work,and paladins,because its rly just paladins that do these solo stuff cause of how they work

[OrcsRLame]

Because I want to talk about the entire game, not whatever niche activity you personally find most enthralling. If you scroll up I think you'll find that I never once said "Top end progression raiding requires more time investment in classic than in retail". I said that the game generally requires more time investment. You made this about your little mythic raiding club, not me. I'd have the same response to anyone that responded to my general point with "Pet battles take a lot of time so retail requires a lot of time investment!".

Equating mythic raiding with pet battles is like equating raiding in classic with fishing. So I don't think it's a valid comparison, especially when a large percentage of the playerbase at least has a crack at mythic. I don't think you're grasping the nuance that lots of people try mythic and most fail. So it's not a niche activity, it's just niche to succeed at it.

Regardless, the other 58 pages of this thread and many others are comparing raiding to raiding. In fact I believe you were comparing to mythic raiding specifically and now you're backpedaling and I can prove it.

This was your original post that I responded to. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52595631

That would be post number 1129. In this post you said...

Retail is difficult because of complex encounter mechanics. Classic is difficult because of the necessary time investment needed. Retail is an obstacle course. Classic is an incredibly long hike. These are two totally different and incomparable models of difficulty,

So you specifically made reference to the difficult and complex encounter mechanics of retail, (Mythic raiding, as I'm assuming you were not talking about a different difficulty.) and then you said that that is like an obstacle course as opposed to the incredibly long hike of classic. My point, is that that obstacle course, the thing you brought up, is actually a longer hike than classic as it takes extreme time and dedication to clear that obstacle course.

So if you have very limited time to play each week, classic is the game where you can succeed and progress more than retail.

[NineSpine]

Equating mythic raiding with pet battles is like equating raiding in classic with fishing. So I don't think it's a valid comparison, especially when a large percentage of the playerbase at least has a crack at mythic. I don't think you're grasping the nuance that lots of people try mythic and most fail. So it's not a niche activity, it's just niche to succeed at it.

This distinction is meaningless to me. Niche is niche. I don't care how special you think your little club is. It's still a little club. The game is not all about you.

Regardless, the other 58 pages of this thread and many others are comparing raiding to raiding. In fact I believe you were comparing to mythic raiding specifically and now you're backpedaling and I can prove it.

This was your original post that I responded to. https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post52595631

That would be post number 1129. In this post you said...

So you specifically made reference to the difficult and complex encounter mechanics of retail, (Mythic raiding, as I'm assuming you were not talking about a different difficulty.) and then you said that that is like an obstacle course as opposed to the incredibly long hike of classic. My point, is that that obstacle course, the thing you brought up, is actually a longer hike than classic as it takes extreme time and dedication to clear that obstacle course.

So if you have very limited time to play each week, classic is the game where you can succeed and progress more than retail.

I don't care about "succeed and progress" metrics in your cute little niche. I don't care about it in pet battles. I don't care about it in mythic raiding. Everything you are saying about mythic raiding is equally interesting to me as "Pet battles take a lot of time". I don't care.

I made reference to complex encounter mechanics in basically all raiding and dungeons. Even LFR mechanics are a bit more complex than a lot of Classic encounters. You are the one who keeps making everything about mythic raiding, when in reality the rest of us really don't care about an activity that a tiny percentage of players seriously engage in. Defining the general parameters of the game by an activity that less than 5% of players really engage in (mythic progression raiding) is absurd. It's laughable on its face.

[OrcsRLame]

This distinction is meaningless to me. Niche is niche. I don't care how special you think your little club is. It's still a little club. The game is not all about you.



I don't care about "succeed and progress" metrics in your cute little niche. I don't care about it in pet battles. I don't care about it in mythic raiding. Everything you are saying about mythic raiding is equally interesting to me as "Pet battles take a lot of time". I don't care.

I made reference to complex encounter mechanics in basically all raiding and dungeons. Even LFR mechanics are a bit more complex than a lot of Classic encounters. You are the one who keeps making everything about mythic raiding, when in reality the rest of us really don't care about an activity that a tiny percentage of players seriously engage in. Defining the general parameters of the game by an activity that less than 5% of players really engage in (mythic progression raiding) is absurd. It's laughable on its face.

Why do you keep lying? Over 7% of guilds have killed mythic N'zoth. Plenty more than that are progressing on him or the bosses before him. Almost 18% of guilds have killed mythic Ra-den.

I literally linked you the numbers and you keep lying about them.

What is this less than 5% bullshit?

Also high m+ takes more time investment than being the best at anything pve in classic. Since you want to talk about other aspects of the game so much.

[Better]

Atleast you cant solo raid bosses :^)

kazzak reck bomb happened on live servers :^)

[Super Kami Dende]

Getting to moon wasn't hard. Engineers were just worse. Building an airplane wasn't hard. Finding a cure for diseases that are joke nowadays wasn't hard.

With your logic most things in the past weren't hard, people were just worse at doing them. Gladly most people understand that difficulty is subjective.

And yes, classic is a joke nowadays.

The difference being People at Vanillas release were still able to faceroll it. Meaning your comparison is a joke as well.

[PenguinChan]

The difference being People at Vanillas release were still able to faceroll it. Meaning your comparison is a joke as well.

I don't understand why people think Classic is hard in any capacity when it was designed to be beaten by the 2004 gaming demographic. Y'know, the keyboard turning players with 200 ping, clicking skills and not always being optimally spec'd or good gear. Back then, sure, I'd consider it difficult for some players. But now? Pffff.

[NineSpine]

Why do you keep lying? Over 7% of guilds have killed mythic N'zoth. Plenty more than that are progressing on him or the bosses before him. Almost 18% of guilds have killed mythic Ra-den.

I literally linked you the numbers and you keep lying about them.

What is this less than 5% bullshit?

Also high m+ takes more time investment than being the best at anything pve in classic. Since you want to talk about other aspects of the game so much.

Guilds =/= players, and wowprogress does not list all guilds. You have to add your guilds or they don't get counted. That's why there's an ADD button.

I don't care about being "the best' dude. I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself.

[OrcsRLame]

Guilds =/= players, and wowprogress does not list all guilds. You have to add your guilds or they don't get counted. That's why there's an ADD button.

I don't care about being "the best' dude. I don't know how many times I need to repeat myself.

Right but as I said about 14k guilds, (Recorded) have cleared AQ40. So it's not like mythic raiding is significantly more niche in classic, it's just very hard to full clear.

Are you willing to call raiding in classic a niche thing that almost none of the playerbase engages in?

[NineSpine]

Right but as I said about 14k guilds, (Recorded) have cleared AQ40. So it's not like mythic raiding is significantly more niche in classic, it's just very hard to full clear.

Are you willing to call raiding in classic a niche thing that almost none of the playerbase engages in?

There is no "mythic raiding" in classic. There's just raiding. You are the one obsessed with hyper-focusing on one activity. I'm talking about the game as a whole. On top of that, you keep laboring under this delusion that "guilds who have registered themselves on wow progress" is some valuable metric of what anyone is doing. It's not. It's worse than value-less.

[OrcsRLame]

There is no "mythic raiding" in classic. There's just raiding. You are the one obsessed with hyper-focusing on one activity. I'm talking about the game as a whole.

Right that was a typo when I said mythic raiding in classic. What I meant was that by all available data, mythic raiding in retail is not substantially more exclusive than raiding AQ40 in classic.

On top of that, you keep laboring under this delusion that "guilds who have registered themselves on wow progress" is some valuable metric of what anyone is doing. It's not. It's worse than value-less.

If you have more accurate data I would love to see it!

[NineSpine]

Right that was a typo when I said mythic raiding in classic. What I meant was that by all available data, mythic raiding in retail is not substantially more exclusive than raiding AQ40 in classic.

If you have more accurate data I would love to see it!

I can just use your data if that makes you happy:

2000 guilds have killed mythic n'zoth.
14,000 guilds have killed cthun.

Raid sizes are double in classic so lets adjust for that
2000 in retail
28,000 in classic

But classic also appears to have fewer players than retail. We don't know how many fewer, but based on how many servers there are and their health it's generous to say half as many people play classic, so we need to adjust again:
2000 in retail,
56,000 in classic

That would mean the top tier of raiding is done by 28 times as many people in classic as in retail, relative to the size of the playerbase.

[OrcsRLame]

I can just use your data if that makes you happy:

2000 guilds have killed mythic n'zoth.
14,000 guilds have killed cthun.

Raid sizes are double in classic so lets adjust for that
2000 in retail
28,000 in classic

But classic also appears to have fewer players than retail. We don't know how many fewer, but based on how many servers there are and their health it's generous to say half as many people play classic, so we need to adjust again:
2000 in retail,
56,000 in classic

That would mean the top tier of raiding is done by 28 times as many people in classic as in retail, relative to the size of the playerbase.

No you don't get to use my data since you said it's not valid. I want a source on that 5% number you kept claiming earlier. Or did you pull that from your ass?

[NineSpine]

No you don't get to use my data since you said it's not valid. I want a source on that 5% number you kept claiming earlier. Or did you pull that from your ass?

I’m not playing this game where I give you the respect of using your data and then when that data turns out bad for you you throw a hissy fit and demand different data. Maybe you should have thought that data through before trying to use it. Get real.

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The best numbers we have for how many people do mythic raids is from 2015, when a huge sample size was pulled about two months after Blackrock foundry opened:

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...-Rift-Wardrobe

What we see here is that almost two months out around 1% of players were participating in mythic raiding. Looking at the previous tier, only two bosses were killed by more than 2.5% of players.

So, I was being very, very generous by saying 5%. In reality, mythic raiding is probably more like 2%, maybe less.