M+ affixes. Healers job?

[Aphrel]

the problem is that you see it only throu the lens of a healer, when the reality is that m+ runs are completed by a group. And the whole group needs to adapt to the affixes present.

Lets see it from a group pov:
Your gonna need to CC/interupt/LOS/avoid everything that can be avoided, because no amount of healing can outheal oneshots. (and almost everything oneshots on high keys..)
Your gonna need to adapt your planned pulls and dps depending on key affixes because if you dont your gonna wipe.

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You can literally make hundreds of mistakes and not fail the timer, not all mistakes result in death, wipes, or key failure. That run will just be another day in the life for DPS/Tanks but a nightmare for the healer. See the problem?

Maybe you should just start running higher keys. The higher you go the more cooperation is needed.

[exochaft]

The major flaw in how this topic is being tackle is that you can eventually link everything to healer's having to heal more, especially with proposed different affixes or changes to affixes.

For example, if there's an affix that causes a DPS to do 99% reduced damage until you kill a spawned creature, the encounter will last longer regardless, more damage going out on the group, more healing needed. Actually, anything that extends how long you are in combat can be devolved into a healers healing more.

Either you need 'positive' or kiss/curse affixes that speed up your clears and minimize relative time in combat, or understand that the affixes are supposed to be a group effort. In some respects, the healer has the best chance to ensure you succeed in a key if something goes wrong. Sometimes as a tank or DPS it can be frustrating that certain things occur in keys that are out of our hands, and we have to rely on a healer who may or may not do their job. The responsibility goes both ways (or three ways technically between the roles), hence why it's a team effort to make everyone's lives easier.

[Wuusah]

the problem is that you see it only throu the lens of a healer, when the reality is that m+ runs are completed by a group. And the whole group needs to adapt to the affixes present.

Lets see it from a group pov:
Your gonna need to CC/interupt/LOS/avoid everything that can be avoided, because no amount of healing can outheal oneshots. (and almost everything oneshots on high keys..)
Your gonna need to adapt your planned pulls and dps depending on key affixes because if you dont your gonna wipe.

you shouldn't be looking at it from a group perspective. Most people who do M+ are not "a team". And nevertheless, it's not an argument anyway. You always have the group perspective of failing as a team. Nobody gets anything if you fail the dungeon. That's not what this is about. It's about individual responsibility. People need to feel their own mistakes stronger on themselves on all levels of play, not just where you get one shot killed in high keys.

[Jazzhands]

Personally, no, I don't see the problem, because for me, that's a job well done. I understand that someone else might get stressed by having to heal more than they normally should, but I'm not sure if the role of a healer is best suited for them. There are runs that are laid back, because you have good players around, and there are runs that will require more skill and attention. But in the end, it's still doing your job. That's just being a healer, and you have to know what you sign up for. But changing the whole philosophy because of that? Sorry, but I don't see it. It creates as many problems as it's trying to fix: more emphasis on healer DPS, or even doing runs w/o the healer, because he becomes obsolete. Plus, like I said so many times: I signed up for this role to heal; there's no better feeling than saving a DPS that took unnecessary damage and went really low on health, and the unexpectedness of that is part of the fun. Yes, you can still have mechanics that require the healer to heal, but most "standard" mechanics are predictable and quickly become boring. I want to be kept on my toes. If you think that's stressful - maybe you're better of being one the DPS?

We're not asking to change the entire philosophy. Keep the damage, add a mechanic that also punishes the DPS. Healing is all relative, they can balance healing to feel the exact same by playing with numbers. Volcanic change was perfect, it still does damage but it knocks you in the air.

Also, after healing for 16 years, just healing is boring. Paladin Glimmer build has been a breath of fresh air and doing 80k+ DPS on bosses is a lot of fun as a healer. Thing is, the less people mess up, the more damage I can do, the faster the run can go, the better for everyone. Healers DPSing is the best thing to happen for the role in ages, because in proper groups the role is boring half the time, and now I can contribute more. I'd rather contribute than make up for people failing, because one makes things go faster, the other encourages people to continue failing.

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Maybe you should just start running higher keys. The higher you go the more cooperation is needed.

This isn't just about my personal runs, I'm clearly not the only healer that dislikes making up for people being bad without them getting any form of real punishment.

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I mean I am sorry, but at the level where it actually matters, people have to play perfectly or get one shot, which means that as a healer, you actually heal a lot less the higher the m+ scales. And at a +15 level, you should be able to heal just fine some fuck ups, if there are any. If you hate playing with a full PUG group that fucks up in a 15, play with friends. Did you know that healers can dps explosives too? I see many healers who are just healbots who never touch their dps spells, resulting in dpsers having to use a lot more globals outside nuking down the pack to deal with the orbs.

How about we talk about that? And just because m+ is so popular now, that does not mean that mechanics should start punishing in an unfun way things like cooldowns, or CC all the time. Explosive seems to be doing what you want, but yes, some affixes will be more healer oriented than not. Do you see dpsers complaining that they have to interrupt a lot more in recent years or stun, due to there being so many mechanics in trash? No, because it's their job to interrupt/etc to reduce incoming dmg, and so it's your job too to patch things up. If you don't like it, don't play healer and let healers with a proper pair do it.

And that's from someone who has healed in high level before, and I've done my fair share of m+. To want change on the affixes based on shit pug groups is just plain stupidity. Also, were you actually thinking when you suggested increased cooldowns, or CC'ed dps? That would mean that they cannot interrupt as often, due to increased cooldown on interrupts, or they'd be cc'ed and not able to actually interrupt/dps the pack. This would result in you healing more too. So unless you can come up with some proper solutions, you are plain wrong buddy.

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You talk about this assuming the healer is an omnipotent person who makes zero mistakes. Guess you are just another one of those healers who think they are perfect and everyone else around them sucks. Yeah, some pugs are shit, but more often than not, you could have typhooned the mobs out of sanguine, you could do a stun here, you could use a personal there, you could contribute a bit with healer dps, or break some explosives. Healers can also fail the affixes that require healing to patch up.

Also you are super oblivious if you think that dpsers/tanks cannot have a nightmare run. Imagine being a warlock and having to kill explosives unless you have instant casts. Imagine being an unholy deathknight, and stupid tanks moving mobs out of your DnD for some reason, making you do 0 dmg. Dpsers or a holy paladin being close to melee range at all times and hitting the tank with quaking shaving off massive % off his hp.

Stop acting like you are the sole victim. And if you hate it that much, play with friends, or reroll to a dps, since dpsers have it so nice. : )

I play all three roles at high levels. I also never said that the healer, or I, never make mistakes, I've literally said the exact opposite, everyone makes mistakes. I also DPS as a healer, I play Glimmer Paladin and it's hilarious when I out-DPS shit players. I also never said healers were the sole victim and that other roles can't have bad runs, I just never mentioned it because it's not relevant to the conversation. I pug as well as play with friends. You're making an awful lot of assumptions about me, should probably stop.

It's also hilarious when you all fall onto the "Oh if it's too hard you should probably just stop". I'm not here to carry bads, and funnily enough I actually don't, I just let people die. I don't run low keys when I'm bored to spend the entire time spamming FoL on some rogue who stands in everything. And you know what? About half the time... they stop eating the mechanic. It's almost crazy, right? When they aren't having fun because they keep failing, they stop failing to have fun... Hrm.

[Rageonit]

Also, after healing for 16 years, just healing is boring. Paladin Glimmer build has been a breath of fresh air and doing 80k+ DPS on bosses is a lot of fun as a healer.

Tell that again to a resto shaman, or a holy priest. Or maybe we should all reroll a paladin? Glimmer is a freak build that never should have happened (and AFAIK it's going away in SL in its current form, which is a good thing). Yeah, I know, many paladins had fun with it - but it also created huge healer imbalance, because you have a healer who heals as well as anyone else, and does great DPS on top of that. So yeah, I'd prefer healing still being about healing, not about doing great DPS and complaining about other players not dodging mechanics, so you can DPS more. Really makes me feel like you're not playing the correct role. (Especially paired with the "healing is boring" statement and asking to put less pressure on the healer.)

It's also hilarious when you all fall onto the "Oh if it's too hard you should probably just stop". I'm not here to carry bads, and funnily enough I actually don't, I just let people die. I don't run low keys when I'm bored to spend the entire time spamming FoL on some rogue who stands in everything. And you know what? About half the time... they stop eating the mechanic.

So they are being punished, and they do start dodging it. Where's the problem then?

[Jazzhands]

Tell that again to a resto shaman, or a holy priest. Or maybe should we all reroll a paladin? Glimmer is a freak build that never should have happened (and AFAIK it's going away in SL in its current form, which is a good thing). Yeah, I know, many paladins had fun with it - but it also created huge healer imbalance, because you have a healer who heals as well as anyone else, and does great DPS on top of that. So yeah, I'd prefer healing still being about healing, not about doing great DPS and complaining about other players not dodging mechanics, so you can DPS more. Really makes me feel like you're not playing the correct role.

Glimmer is still a thing in SL, more or less the exact same just slowed down. And before paladins, high keys were basically just Resto druids or Disc priests, one way or another there is always a top dog, in SL it will likely just be back to druids because shock! HoTs let you DPS more. There's practically no way to avoid healer DPS at this point because M+ pushes speed and even a tiny bit of extra DPS helps when you're finishing a +26 by 3 seconds, they would have to literally disable the abilities. The game changed, and the role has changed with it.

[erifwodahs]

It's tanks job as much as healers and in high keys it's everyones job. Healer has to know when the cooldowns are required, dps MUST help out tank to survive, tank must monitor healers CD's and call out dps utility. Saying its "healers" mechanics is as valid as "well it's all dps mechanics, more dmg you do, less healing there is"

[Rageonit]

Glimmer is still a thing in SL, more or less the exact same just slowed down. And before paladins, high keys were basically just Resto druids or Disc priests, one way or another there is always a top dog, in SL it will likely just be back to druids because shock! HoTs let you DPS more.

...and by asking for an environment where there is even less emphasis on healing, you help to cement that imbalance, by giving healers who are better at DPSing even more time to DPS, therefore creating bigger gap between them and healers who have lower DPS and/or don't have any abilities that synergize with healing. So we may see even more glimmer Paladins and resto Druids around. I don't know, I wouldn't call that a good solution for diversity.
EDIT: But yeah, if it's all coming from a glimmer Paladin, I start to understand your agenda better.

[Jazzhands]

...and by asking for an environment where there is even less emphasis on healing, you help to cement that imbalance, by giving healers who are better at DPSing even more time to DPS, therefore creating even bigger gap between them and healers who have lower DPS or need to give up healing completely to use DPS abilities. So we may see even more glimmer Paladins and resto Druids around. I don't know, I wouldn't call that a good solution for diversity.

Problem: Healers that aren't #1 do less damage.

Solution: Buff them.

But again, even in a perfect world one spec will always be a millimetre ahead, and that will be the only one you see at high keys. Also the changes don't exactly reduce healing, more CC on DPS means less interrupts and control, so there's still your precious chaos but more pressure is on DPS.

[Rageonit]

Problem: Healers that aren't #1 do less damage.
Solution: Buff them.

And you don't see anything wrong in the fact that healers will have to be balanced around DPS? What's next? Balance DPS classes around self healing, so healers can DPS more? And the problem is bigger than just DPS numbers; it's also the fact that some classed don't have any DPS abilities that synergize with healing, so it would also require a rework of those classes. So again - I'd rather have healers balanced around healing.

[Soluna]

We're not asking to change the entire philosophy. Keep the damage, add a mechanic that also punishes the DPS. Healing is all relative, they can balance healing to feel the exact same by playing with numbers. Volcanic change was perfect, it still does damage but it knocks you in the air.

Also, after healing for 16 years, just healing is boring. Paladin Glimmer build has been a breath of fresh air and doing 80k+ DPS on bosses is a lot of fun as a healer. Thing is, the less people mess up, the more damage I can do, the faster the run can go, the better for everyone. Healers DPSing is the best thing to happen for the role in ages, because in proper groups the role is boring half the time, and now I can contribute more. I'd rather contribute than make up for people failing, because one makes things go faster, the other encourages people to continue failing.

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This isn't just about my personal runs, I'm clearly not the only healer that dislikes making up for people being bad without them getting any form of real punishment.

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I play all three roles at high levels. I also never said that the healer, or I, never make mistakes, I've literally said the exact opposite, everyone makes mistakes. I also DPS as a healer, I play Glimmer Paladin and it's hilarious when I out-DPS shit players. I also never said healers were the sole victim and that other roles can't have bad runs, I just never mentioned it because it's not relevant to the conversation. I pug as well as play with friends. You're making an awful lot of assumptions about me, should probably stop.

It's also hilarious when you all fall onto the "Oh if it's too hard you should probably just stop". I'm not here to carry bads, and funnily enough I actually don't, I just let people die. I don't run low keys when I'm bored to spend the entire time spamming FoL on some rogue who stands in everything. And you know what? About half the time... they stop eating the mechanic. It's almost crazy, right? When they aren't having fun because they keep failing, they stop failing to have fun... Hrm.

It's funny, all the assumptions I made are due to how you worded things. You say that healers had a nightmare after a run, while for dps/tanks it is just another run. Do you not clearly see here that it sounds like you think the healers are the ones who are perfect? And if you don't think so, then don't just make such fucking generalisations. Healers can be fucking trash themselves, I've seen many healers dying for a freaking volcanic, or through the flames in AD/etc, or get one shot cause they don't know when to go in melee range or when to stay out, resulting in the group having no healing and dying.

How is that not relevant to this discussion? All these things are brought up to show you that you are just a drama queen, and should realise that what you are complaining about does not go only ONE WAY, it goes BOTH WAYS, meaning that just like dps/tanks can do fine with a shit healer, even though their runs are worse, you are also not entitled to players playing perfectly and may have a shit run yourself where you have to actually do some reactive healing god forbid.

If you let people die btw on a +15 or smth, you are just bad yourself, cause you cannot do any reactive healing. If they don't get one shot, and you could prevent it, then you failed your job as a healer. Yes, they failed a mechanic and it lowered their health, but so did you fail to do your primary role by focusing on outdpsing 'bad players'. I sometimes play unholy deathknight alt, and we play an 18 or a 19 with friends, and I am not that used to melee range, so I ask for an eternal if I think I will take damage, because I know that I can pull 1 million dps on a pack of 10 mobs.

Could I do it without the external, and letting the healer do their 80k dps? Probably, but why take the chances? And if the healer decides to do his own 80k dps, instead of healing a bit more the DK who will pull 1 million in the next second, then the healer is stupid. Also, the scenarios you write about are completely out of this world, it's so darn rare to get a person with 2.5k+ rio who will take much avoidable dmg, if you take people with 300 rio, or people who want to boost their 400 ilvl in a 15, it's your fault that you end up in such situations, in which case, find a better key.

Finally, this might come as a surprise, but all of us, including you Mr. Perfect, have bad days where we might stand in a bad aoe or two at the start of a key, and then we get our shit together. Chances are they didn't give a fuck about you not healing them, and they just got into the key and started performing better anyway by themselves.

[Jazzhands]

It's funny, all the assumptions I made are due to how you worded things. You say that healers had a nightmare after a run, while for dps/tanks it is just another run. Do you not clearly see here that it sounds like you think the healers are the ones who are perfect? And if you don't think so, then don't just make such fucking generalisations. Healers can be fucking trash themselves, I've seen many healers dying for a freaking volcanic, or through the flames in AD/etc, or get one shot cause they don't know when to go in melee range or when to stay out, resulting in the group having no healing and dying.
Just because I only talked about one type of group doesn't mean I don't think other types of groups exist. This thread is about how M+ affixes impact healers, obviously that's going to happen the most in groups where tanks/DPS continuously eat mechanics because they are oblivious to them, and since they are oblivious to them the run was "just another day", but the healer just had to work twice as hard and the run went slower because he could have tossed in some damage.
How is that not relevant to this discussion? All these things are brought up to show you that you are just a drama queen, and should realise that what you are complaining about does not go only ONE WAY, it goes BOTH WAYS, meaning that just like dps/tanks can do fine with a shit healer, even though their runs are worse, you are also not entitled to players playing perfectly and may have a shit run yourself where you have to actually do some reactive healing god forbid.
It's not relevant because this thread is about how M+ affixes effect healers, not about how they effect DPS/Tanks or how bad healers effect DPS/Tanks.
If you let people die btw on a +15 or smth, you are just bad yourself, cause you cannot do any reactive healing. If they don't get one shot, and you could prevent it, then you failed your job as a healer. Yes, they failed a mechanic and it lowered their health, but so did you fail to do your primary role by focusing on outdpsing 'bad players'. I sometimes play unholy deathknight alt, and we play an 18 or a 19 with friends, and I am not that used to melee range, so I ask for an eternal if I think I will take damage, because I know that I can pull 1 million dps on a pack of 10 mobs.
I specifically said I don't do LOW keys to carry bads. People in 15+ don't eat mechanics constantly enough for me to stop healing them. Everyone makes mistakes and that's fine, but when a DPS stands in his Corruption eye or boss mechanics that just tick down damage I'm not going to heal them.
Could I do it without the external, and letting the healer do their 80k dps? Probably, but why take the chances? And if the healer decides to do his own 80k dps, instead of healing a bit more the DK who will pull 1 million in the next second, then the healer is stupid. Also, the scenarios you write about are completely out of this world, it's so darn rare to get a person with 2.5k+ rio who will take much avoidable dmg, if you take people with 300 rio, or people who want to boost their 400 ilvl in a 15, it's your fault that you end up in such situations, in which case, find a better key.
Dude this is about bads turning what should be a chill low key into work because they don't want to work. Anything 15+ is a different story because they actually avoid mechanics so the changes would hardly impact them. It's hilarious to me when a +10 is harder than a +18 because people are just that bad.
Finally, this might come as a surprise, but all of us, including you Mr. Perfect, have bad days where we might stand in a bad aoe or two at the start of a key, and then we get our shit together. Chances are they didn't give a fuck about you not healing them, and they just got into the key and started performing better anyway by themselves. I've never said I'm perfect, you literally quoted me saying everyone makes mistakes. Once again I don't expect everyone to be perfect, it's people who constantly make mistakes and don't even try to play that make a healers job annoying. I should also point out these same players are hugging you with quaking and not killing explosives, so making mechanics that punish them more benefits everyone.

tencharactersandallthat.

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And you don't see anything wrong in the fact that healers will have to be balanced around DPS? What's next? Balance DPS classes around self healing, so healers can DPS more? And the problem is bigger than just DPS numbers; it's also the fact that some classed don't have any DPS abilities that synergize with healing, so it would also require a rework of those classes. So again - I'd rather have healers balanced around healing.

I never said it wasn't a problem, but it's unavoidable at this point with how M+ works unless they just straight up disable healing DPS which I highly doubt they would, I believe it was you that said scripted damage is boring eventually (I've replied to a few people, hard to keep straight) and that's more or less all top keys end up being because eating a mechanic is just a one shot, healers can't save that. You seem to want more of that, but if they reduced the damage from mechanics but added things like stun and CC, top keys would actually become more about making up for the mistake and potential abilities that went off or new mobs pulled instead of just one shot. But of course, with how damage scales one shot would always be inevitable unless they capped keys, so it's kind of a moot argument.

[Rageonit]

Also the changes don't exactly reduce healing, more CC on DPS means less interrupts and control, so there's still your precious chaos but more pressure is on DPS.

Oh and BTW, if that's what you're going for, then I don't think you will achieve what you want, because DPS not interrupting certain things will put a lot more emphasis on healing than the affixes themselves. You seem to think that you're playing with amazing players who don't dodge stuff, because they believe you can outheal it - and will start to magically dodge it if it also applies stun. The reality is, they are just bad, they won't dodge anyway, they will get stunned, stand in a Shockwave or don't interrupt Shadowbolt Volley, and you will have a lot more to heal (or everyone will just die). I don't know a single good player who would not dodge a simple Volcanic ATM just because he thinks the healer can outheal it.

[Jazzhands]

Oh and BTW, if that's what you're going for, then I don't think you will achieve what you want, because DPS not interrupting certain things will put a lot more emphasis on healing than the affixes themselves. You seem to think that you're playing with amazing players who don't dodge stuff, because they believe you can outheal it - and will start to magically dodge it if it also applies stun. The reality is, they are just bad, they won't dodge anyway, they will get stunned, stand in a Shockwave or don't interrupt Shadowbolt Volley, and you will have a lot more to heal. I don't know a single good player who would not dodge a simple Volcanic ATM just because he thinks the healer can outheal it.

I think I get unlucky in pugs and get bad players who got carried through lowerish keys enough for me to invite them to a +10-12 because it should be easy, but people just healed them through mechanics so they had no idea what to actually do. It's literally me trying to be nice and help a person break that 9->10 r.IO barrier and then they're just awful and it doesn't even seem like they're trying, and it's an M+ so I don't exactly have time to sit there and type stuff out for them. Time and time again I've seen people adapt when I just let them die to stuff. It's rare, but over 16 years it does happen. People don't like dying, and when it happens a lot they might learn because they aren't getting to actually play the game.

[Rageonit]

I just don't get how changing the affixes to CCs or debuffs (instead of raw damage) can help with that. With your way of thinking (don't heal them, so they learn) it looks like the best solution would be to make the affixes a one-shot no matter what m+ level. Wouldn't that be easier?

[Enter Name Here]

that would be great from a mana preserving perspective

[Sharnie786]

Everything falls back to the healer when people fail and the group gets damaged. That's the point of the healer role in the first place. If you play absolutely perfectly, oftentimes you don't even need a healer all that much.

The responsibility to do things right, is not just on the healer. The responsibility to save the group AFTER it went wrong is mostly on the healer. But that doesn't mean all affixes are the healer's job. The job is to do the affixes right, not to salvage it after ignoring affixes...

That's silly. The job of saving the group if something goes wrong is the whole group. Healer can't heal things going wrong unless others do things too.

Healers are disproportionately pressured compared to DPS. I play all 3 roles btw. It's a thankless job.

[enigma77]

Inspiring Presence-More dmg needed since no CC
Spiteful Shade - More dmg needed since people will get hit no matter what
Bursting. - Less dmg needed
Grieveous. - not more healing per say but hella more stressful healing
Necrotic. - Not more healing but sort of more healing needed
Explosive. - If not killed more healing needed.
Raging. - More healing needed since more dmg taken
Bolstering. - evenly dpsing down enemies needed
Explosive. - more dmg needed to deal with them
sanguine: - more healing needed since it cant be fully dodged (can but cmon no one does that).
quaking: - Ok not more healing unless standing in eachother which happens.
Storming: - more healing needed.

changed a few things

[Soluna]

tencharactersandallthat.

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Lmao, time to put you on the children list, who cannot argue properly to facts, and instead just type something silly. Good job at proving my point.

[Nnyco]

Poor healer you, actually have to press buttons and not afk /follow someone.