Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Elegiac]

It doesn't work like that, kid.

The DA certainly seems to think it does.

Also he was wearing gloves because he was cleaning graffiti off the sides of buildings and was assisting people with first aid.

I do like how we have claims that there isn't systemic racism when the sympathetic news coverage towards a terrorist because he's not Black is cited as your example.

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It's what they teach in almost any gun safety/licensing course

That is a bald-faced fucking lie, and I can tell you that as a registered firearm and concealed carry permit holder in both Washington and Oregon states.

The number one rule they teach you in almost any gun safety course is never point a firearm at anything you are not willing and intending to destroy. Nothing about "your weapon is your life".

That's Star Wars nonsense, lol.

[Kasierith]

I don't believe the rioters version of events. I find rittenhouse extremely suspicious though. He had a illegal weapon due to his age. He was alone... I don't believe he was working with or coordinating with the milita that did an amazing job that night... he was there apparently alone with a mob and that... well I admit that seems like there was something more there.

I am more prone to believing it was him being dumb for being there and alone but it is suspicious.

Looks to me like he went in with a strong expectation, even desire for this particular outcome, of provoking someone and then responding with deadly force under the mantle of trying for an affirmative self defense claim. For me there is no other reasonable explanation for how he managed to make himself to that spot at that particular time and conducted himself in such a manner.

[Krakan]

That's completely fucking ridiculous and in no way supported by US law.

Where the hell do you people dig this crap up from?



If you're behaving dangerously, and someone tries to grab your gun, and you shoot them, that's murder.

This isn't a "culture disconnect". This is reality. If you're having trouble with that, it's because you're refusing to accept the legal reality of how things work.

I can agree with you if it turns out he was behaving dangerously.

[Kasierith]

It's what they teach in almost any gun safety/licensing course

Really. I just got my ccw license, and I don't recall anything of the sort. Even someone holding a gun off to the side doesn't. It's when they're bearing it to a lethal position like raising it that self defense is permissible.

[Endus]

He went as close as a length of a car. Let's calm down a moment and lay off the fire and brimstone.

So, nowhere close enough to actually reach Rittenhouse.

Not helping your case.

It more or less works out to two scenarios.

Either rittenhouse provoked the attack by firing in the direction of the crowd or pointed his weapon at them. I would still argue him deescalting the situation by trying to leave would make it self defense but its extremely arguably that it wasn't at that point.

Or he made no provoking gesture and his attacker either grabbed for his weapon and then chased him or chased him and cornered him while charging him in that case its 100% self defense.

Even in the latter case, it's still 100% murder, because nothing Rosenbaum did could be considered to pose a significant enough threat to justify lethal force.

It's what they teach in almost any gun safety/licensing course

Absolute fucking nonsense.

I carried a weapon for years with work I did. It was, admittedly, performance and security work, and the weapons were antiques, but they'll still kill you dead if you use them unsafely (and the three people behind you; .577 caliber is no joke). Gun safety was absolutely central to the training.

Not once was "totally kill anyone who grabs at your weapon" ever included in any of the extensive safety training we did, which went above and beyond standard firearms safety training, since we had to interact with the public daily while armed.

[Elegiac]

I can agree with you if it turns out he was behaving dangerously.

Let's be entirely clear here.

This is not an admission of interest in good faith discussion in pursuit of the facts. It's walking back an outrageous claim while laying the groundwork to spring back with "ah ha, see, BLM was the one who murdered Professor Plum all along!"

[Krakan]

Looks to me like he went in with a strong expectation, even desire for this particular outcome, of provoking someone and then responding with deadly force under the mantle of trying for an affirmative self defense claim. For me there is no other reasonable explanation for how he managed to make himself to that spot at that particular time and conducted himself in such a manner.

I mean I don't think he did but I would be lying if I said the more I think about " why was he alone" didn't have me feeling more and more uneasy about it. The milita had posts warning its members to not spread out in groups of less then six in case something occured.

[Elegiac]

I mean I don't think he did but I would be lying if I said the more I think about " why was he alone" didn't have me feeling more and more uneasy about it. The milita had posts warning its members to not spread out in groups of less then six in case something occured.

Why was the militia even there to start wiiiiiithhhhh.

[Endus]

The number one rule they teach you in almost any gun safety course is never point a firearm at anything you are not willing and intending to destroy. Nothing about "your weapon is your life".

Seriously, the rule is so strict that it doesn't matter if you've just unloaded your weapon and the breach is clear and you're in the middle of cleaning it; you don't let the muzzle drift to point at anyone. Ever. People got fucking fired from my job if that happened past your first couple weeks of training. It's basic shit.

These nutcase militia types carrying at a low ready in crowds make me itch. None of them have any sweet fucking clue what they're doing.

[Kasierith]

I mean I don't think he did but I would be lying if I said the more I think about " why was he alone" didn't have me feeling more and more uneasy about it. The milita had posts warning its members to not spread out in groups of less then six in case something occured.

Could you posit another reasonable explanation for why he was in the position he was in, with a loaded firearm prepared for an engagement?

[Krakan]

Let's be entirely clear here.

This is not an admission of interest in good faith discussion in pursuit of the facts. It's walking back an outrageous claim while laying the groundwork to spring back with "ah ha, see, BLM was the one who murdered Professor Plum all along!"

I mean I know you will never believe it but yes. If evidence arises that shows he was at fault I will own up to being wrong.

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Could you posit another reasonable explanation for why he was in the position he was in, with a loaded firearm prepared for an engagement?

He was 17 and dumb. Least that is the most obvious reason I can think of.

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Why was the militia even there to start wiiiiiithhhhh.

Cops didn't or couldn't enforce the law enough to protect the residents.

[Kasierith]

He was 17 and dumb. Least that is the most obvious reason I can think of.

When I was 17 and dumb I streaked out in the middle of a blizzard on a dare. Going to a different state, alone, to an area of civil unrest, purporting to be there to "protect businesses" but being nowhere close, and engaging with protesters alone, with an illegally obtained loaded fire arm, and then provoking someone and then opening fire is quite a bit more organized and deterministic than your regular teenage impulsiveness.

[Elegiac]

I mean I know you will never believe it but yes. If evidence arises that shows he was at fault I will own up to being wrong.

I have as much evidence to believe that you'll accept being wrong as you have evidence to believe this kid was in the wrong.

Cops didn't or couldn't enforce the law enough to protect the residents.

Which is why said militia members came in from out of state. Righhhhhht.

Next you'll say that the gestapo were in Portland to protect the residents when the residents did not want them there.

[Krakan]

When I was 17 and dumb I streaked out in the middle of a blizzard on a dare. Going to a different state, alone, to an area of civil unrest, purporting to be there to "protect businesses" but being nowhere close, and engaging with protesters alone, with an illegally obtained loaded fire arm, and then provoking someone and then opening fire is quite a bit more organized and deterministic than your regular teenage impulsiveness.

I mean... him being alone is troubling for me.in every video the militia is in a group.. when they are putting out fires. Separating cops and protesters. Protecting property never are they moving alone or even in pairs then this one kid is out there by himself?

Look the video makes a strong case for self defense but I admit it doesn't show what occured leading up to the case. The most we have is his attacker being furious about 30 minutes or so before hand before the two confronted each other.

I admit I didn't think about him being alone till about a hour ago and it leaves me feeling uneasy about it.

[Endus]

Could you posit another reasonable explanation for why he was in the position he was in, with a loaded firearm prepared for an engagement?

To be clear; eyewitness accounts in the charging documents state that Rittenhouse was walking around with his AR-15 in a low ready position.

This is a low ready, for a rifle;



Anyone your muzzle crosses while you're doing this is someone you're putting at risk of being shot. Ready positions are used in active use instances; you are expecting to have to fire that weapon at a heartbeat's notice. If you aren't, you do not hold it in a ready position.

There's no way Rittenhouse was carrying his AR-15 in a low ready and not threatening bystanders.

[Elegiac]

Seriously, the rule is so strict that it doesn't matter if you've just unloaded your weapon and the breach is clear and you're in the middle of cleaning it; you don't let the muzzle drift to point at anyone. Ever. People got fucking fired from my job if that happened past your first couple weeks of training. It's basic shit.

These nutcase militia types carrying at a low ready in crowds make me itch. None of them have any sweet fucking clue what they're doing.

More interestingly like - yeah "this weapon is your life" is literally a line from the Phantom Menace, and we've have an abundance of people excusing atrocities with similar nonsense like "only a Sith speaks in absolutes".

Given that few if any of these posters have any actual familiarity with American police and seem to base their worldview entirely on narrative fiction, it's actually fairly easy to see why they jump at the chance to white knight the police. Because admission that the cops are bad means that their beloved childhood game of cops and robbers is less meaningful.

[Kasierith]

I mean... him being alone is troubling for me.in every video the militia is in a group.. when they are putting out fires. Separating cops and protesters. Protecting property never are they moving alone or even in pairs then this one kid is out there by himself?

Look the video makes a strong case for self defense but I admit it doesn't show what occured leading up to the case. The most we have is his attacker being furious about 30 minutes or so before hand before the two confronted each other.

I admit I didn't think about him being alone till about a hour ago and it leaves me feeling uneasy about it.

A key component of any self defense claim, where if it fails the entire claim fails, is that you have to have gone into the situation in good faith. Wisconsin statute is very explicit. If you come into a situation with the intention of provoking a reaction, you don't get to make a self defense claim if you succeed.

[Krakan]

A key component of any self defense claim, where if it fails the entire claim fails, is that you have to have gone into the situation in good faith. Wisconsin statute is very explicit. If you come into a situation with the intention of provoking a reaction, you don't get to make a self defense claim if you succeed.

I honestly don't know then. If he was with a group I would still be championing the video but he wasn't was he?

If he was seperated somehow that makes sense but if he just walked up to them alone like a idoit well... I can't say it makes him deserving to be attacked just for that but it does cast a lot of shadows on what happened.

[LilSaihah]

When I was 17 and dumb I streaked out in the middle of a blizzard on a dare. Going to a different state, alone, to an area of civil unrest, purporting to be there to "protect businesses" but being nowhere close, and engaging with protesters alone, with an illegally obtained loaded fire arm, and then provoking someone and then opening fire is quite a bit more organized and deterministic than your regular teenage impulsiveness.

Ngl this makes me think that someone else is running the show here.

It really does smell like that to me if the mother's the one who's driven him here, and is the one who's driving him back to their state. I don't think you strap a rifle to a child's chest, send them out during a protest and not expect the outcome that we got here.

[Shalcker]

I mean I don't think he did but I would be lying if I said the more I think about " why was he alone" didn't have me feeling more and more uneasy about it. The milita had posts warning its members to not spread out in groups of less then six in case something occured.

As far as i understand timeline he tried to get out but was forced to go back there by police. That's when he happened to be alone and eventually chased by first victim.