Everyone Deserves to Make a Living Wage Regardless of Job/Status

[kamuimac]

So as Endus said - slaughter the worthless, except indirectly, so your hands "would be clean". Ok, Adolf. It also seems you are close, very close to talking about eugenics, which goes so very well together with the first point...
Tell me, Mr. Potential, are you aware that not having enough food while growing up fucks with kids brains? Hard to "realise your potential" when you are hungry, so to speak. What about it? Starve the kids if their parents can't afford enough food?

Also, you said taxation is slavery. Not sure if I saw you talking about how countries and the respective services would work, but regardless - how do you expect firefighters, police, medics, schools, etc. will be paid for? Roads kept up? And so on...?

dont know about your country but in mine schools have social programs for poor kids - and providing them with lunches at school. additionaly parents gets +/-120 euro a month as goverment kids support untill they turn 18.

taxation is good - as long as money are spend on good things

supporting kids is good thing - education, health , food etc

supporting lazy not working adoults - thats bad thing. because it means less money that could go exackly towards kids education/support , free healthcare and many other good things.

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I dont like you being wannabe Adolf. Also, I love how you changed your tone and suddenly started to talk about kindness, but at the same time labeling people as worthless. Do tell me, what worth do you have? Who decided said worth? You? xD Because clearly it was not society.

technically your bank can assess your exackt monetary worth using their algorythms for credits/mortgages :P

but its easy - someone owning 10 apartments and earning 20k $ monthly is worth for society more then burger flipper from mcdonalds - just from amount of taxes and money each of them spend monthly - rich people put back more money into society then poor . its not exackly rocket science

[BeepBoo]

I dont like you being wannabe Adolf. Also, I love how you changed your tone and suddenly started to talk about kindness, but at the same time labeling people as worthless. Do tell me, what worth do you have? Who decided said worth? You? xD Because clearly it was not society.

Except it was. Worth (and here's the important part.....) to society is a function of monetary value. Do you do something society finds more valuable than someone else? You get more money. More money, more potential to trade for other goods and services. What is that, if not value?

Ah, got it, let's starve children, it is, after all, their parents fault, always, because they are idiots, it can't be anything else ever, riiight?

Not what I said. Ultimately it's up to individuals to accept that burden if they want.

You did not answer the question how you will pay for those. Because yes, pretty much that always has been paid for taxes, one way or another.

I'll give you one example with roads and you can use your imagination as to how it works for every possible case.

People need to deliver their goods places. Roads and road vehicles are one of the best ways we currently have to solve that problem. Ergo, businesses and commerce would essentially build them even if govt didn't. How would they fund it? Someone would build it and get paid for it by the people who could afford to bankroll it. Those people would then pass that cost along in the form of the total cost of the goods they sell. In addition, if people wanted to use it for private use, the owner(s) of the roads might feel so inclined to let people pay them for the use. Even if the system looks similar, it's still privatized.

[Elegiac]

Except it was. Worth (and here's the important part.....) to society is a function of monetary value. Do you do something society finds more valuable than someone else? You get more money. More money, more potential to trade for other goods and services. What is that, if not value?

Lol, no.

Society can exist without money. "Social value" is an entirely arbitrary function, and the fact that we no longer spent shitsquillion percent of our GDP on endowing chantries and monasteries for the salvation of our souls is evidence of that.

I'll give you one example with roads and you can use your imagination as to how it works for every possible case.

People need to deliver their goods places. Roads and road vehicles are one of the best ways we currently have to solve that problem. Ergo, businesses and commerce would essentially build them even if govt didn't. How would they fund it? Someone would build it and get paid for it by the people who could afford to bankroll it. Those people would then pass that cost along in the form of the total cost of the goods they sell. In addition, if people wanted to use it for private use, the owner(s) of the roads might feel so inclined to let people pay them for the use. Even if the system looks similar, it's still privatized.

Indeed, and what we have seen historically is that those private owners end up exploiting their monopoly/captive market by hiking up prices and lowering quality because if you don't like it - what are you gonna do, build your own road? This is just a blatant endorsement of extortion and rent seeking.

The reason we have government run these services is because... Now stay with me... We recognized that giving a ruling elite unilateral control of all public and private power is - whatcha call it, tyranny - and invented this lovely system called democracy in order to make said rulers accountable to the public at large. Privatization makes said rulers only accountable to their shareholders, i.e. themselves.

I really do not understand this obsession with claiming to be the champions of liberty whilst openly fellating authoritarian structures.

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technically your bank can assess your exackt monetary worth using their algorythms for credits/mortgages :P

but its easy - someone owning 10 apartments and earning 20k $ monthly is worth for society more then burger flipper from mcdonalds - just from amount of taxes and money each of them spend monthly - rich people put back more money into society then poor . its not exackly rocket science

Landlords are by and far the best example of taking wealth from the system without putting anything back into it, hun. This isn't the shining argument for capitalism that you think it is.

Capitalists: "Socialism never works, just like in this example --"
Capitalists: *Proceeds to give an example of capitalism.*

[Keosen]

Too much. A perpetual safety net invalidates society's ability to tell someone they're worthless. Being worthless to society, especially if you need to depend on said society, should effectively be a death sentence or have a timer unless you can convince individuals to cover your @$$, acutely.

Are you, personally, valuable to our society?

[Stelio Kontos]

Are you, personally, valuable to our society?

You know the guys who talk that sorta game are usually the first who would be on the chopping block if their ideas were actually put in practice.

[kamuimac]

Landlords are by and far the best example of taking wealth from the system without putting anything back into it, hun. This isn't the shining argument for capitalism that you think it is.

you are completly wrong. people who invest money into new buildings are the reason why many of those buildings are even build in first place. they create demand - that demand creates new jobs - each new building means jobs for contruction workers,surveyors , electricians, plumbers , architects , engineers etc etc for months if not years .

have you ever bought apartment in newly build buildings ? because most of those apartments are atm being bought when the only thing that exist is blueprint of that building and maaaaybe huge hole in the ground. gl trying to buy apartment form "2nd hand" in big european city. those are almost instantly sold as everyone wants to buy those.

those people stimulate economy - and then enable those apartments to be rented and give roof over the head for people who are to lazy to work decently and buy their own place.

but sure - landlords are nothing but leeches eh you people.

[Elegiac]

you are completly wrong. people who invest money into new buildings are the reason why many of those buildings are even build in first place. they create demand

I'm fairly sure people needing places to live is why new buildings get built, sweetheart.

- that demand creates new jobs - each new building means jobs for contruction workers,surveyors , electricians, plumbers , architects , engineers etc etc for months if not years .

Where does a landlord fit into this equation, exactly, if people own their own houses - what value are they introducing.

have you ever bought apartment in newly build buildings ? because most of those apartments are atm being bought when the only thing that exist is blueprint of that building and maaaaybe huge hole in the ground. gl trying to buy apartment form "2nd hand" in big european city. those are almost instantly sold as everyone wants to buy those.

Man it's almost as if you're discovering a housing market inherently creates homelessness or something.

those people stimulate economy - and then enable those apartments to be rented and give roof over the head for people who are to lazy to work decently and buy their own place.

People deserve a place to live as a matter of right, and believing otherwise is sociopathic. So no - it's not a function of "laziness".

I ask again: if everyone owns their own place, where do landlords fit into the demand for real estate? Especially considering many of them actually do not own their properties outright, but buy them on mortgage and then use the rent to cover the mortgage, and then extract further profit.

The answer is that they don't; they extract value by buying up properties they do not need and then extorting people who are not able to purchase their own homes for money under the threat of homelessness. There is a reason "rent-seeking" is a pejorative term.

[evanescene]

"People deserve a place to live as a matter of right, and believing otherwise is sociopathic."

Yes, this is true.

[Easo]

dont know about your country but in mine schools have social programs for poor kids - and providing them with lunches at school. additionaly parents gets +/-120 euro a month as goverment kids support untill they turn 18.

taxation is good - as long as money are spend on good things

supporting kids is good thing - education, health , food etc

supporting lazy not working adoults - thats bad thing. because it means less money that could go exackly towards kids education/support , free healthcare and many other good things.

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technically your bank can assess your exackt monetary worth using their algorythms for credits/mortgages :P

but its easy - someone owning 10 apartments and earning 20k $ monthly is worth for society more then burger flipper from mcdonalds - just from amount of taxes and money each of them spend monthly - rich people put back more money into society then poor . its not exackly rocket science

You do know that schools can be different even in the same country, not to mention in different countries? And in USA, well, we have had threads about school throwing a lunch out since the kid could not pay it. Normally it means taxes will feed the kids, he is against taxes.

Yeah, you can, but how does it show your "worth"? This is a question more to our dear friend Adolf, though, since I am not entirely sure yet whether his idea of worth means literally money, or does he goes fully into "shoot the mentally ill people, the disabled, etc."

Except it was. Worth (and here's the important part.....) to society is a function of monetary value. Do you do something society finds more valuable than someone else? You get more money. More money, more potential to trade for other goods and services. What is that, if not value?


Not what I said. Ultimately it's up to individuals to accept that burden if they want.


I'll give you one example with roads and you can use your imagination as to how it works for every possible case.

People need to deliver their goods places. Roads and road vehicles are one of the best ways we currently have to solve that problem. Ergo, businesses and commerce would essentially build them even if govt didn't. How would they fund it? Someone would build it and get paid for it by the people who could afford to bankroll it. Those people would then pass that cost along in the form of the total cost of the goods they sell. In addition, if people wanted to use it for private use, the owner(s) of the roads might feel so inclined to let people pay them for the use. Even if the system looks similar, it's still privatized.

Banks do a lot of funny things with money and they have a lot of it. Does society on average think that banks are awesome?
But if you think ca

So got it once more, fuck the kids. It does not matter to you that a kid is born, he has to pay for "sins of the parents", so let him starve. Also, you seem to have decided that the only reason someone is starving because they are idiots.

I love how you still ignored everything about police, firedepartment, etc. Oh, and military, good luck with that one. Also, your idea basically mean loss of infrastructure outside of specific hot spots, everything else slowly dies off.

Yeah, ok, Adolf, sociopaths are always funny to listen to. It is really funny how you bullshited about how you have helped others, and that people will usually help, while at the same time you have no issues letting others starve to death.

Are you, personally, valuable to our society?

I am sure you know his answer

You know the guys who talk that sorta game are usually the first who would be on the chopping block if their ideas were actually put in practice.

Heh, reminds me of those screaming about how Earth is overpopulated and that there should be less humans. They, obviously, think that they deserve to stay. xD

[kamuimac]

People deserve a place to live as a matter of right,

its not. people can live in tent if they cant afford to rent the room .

if they want apartment they should work .

claiming otherwise is pure communistic propaganda.

[Elegiac]

its not. people can live in tent if they cant afford to rent the room .

if they want apartment they should work .

claiming otherwise is pure communistic propaganda.

The irony in people posting this and then proceeding to complain about the spike in crime from the increase in homelessness, lol.

Also; even if it were "pure communistic propaganda" - so what? That's got no bearing on whether or not the principle has merit, you're just slandering it by association rather than actually debating the merits because...well, you can't. Lol.

People deserve a place to live as a matter of right; prove me wrong.

[kamuimac]

Banks do a lot of funny things with money and they have a lot of it. Does society on average think that banks are awesome?
But if you think ca

but banks are amazing.

its thx to banks and loans that we can invest so easily , companies can grow and give jobs to even more people

have you ever heard about "financial leverage" ?

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The irony in people posting this and then proceeding to complain about the spike in crime from the increase in homelessness, lol.

Also; even if it were "pure communistic propaganda" - so what? That's got no bearing on whether or not the principle has merit, you're just slandering it by association rather than actually debating the merits because...well, you can't. Lol.

People deserve a place to live as a matter of right; prove me wrong.

they dont . i could prove it to you but i would get banned for it as it would be explanation which some people would say is borderline eugenics which is once again a forbidden topic here - and i cba with bans

also i would be carefull with those statements - cartboard box under bridge could be also technicaly cathegorised as "a place to live", same as homeless shelter

[Elegiac]

they dont . i could prove it to you but i would get banned for it as it would be explanation which some people would say is borderline eugenics which is once again a forbidden topic here - and i cba with bans

As I said - this is an admission that the viewpoint is ethically indefensible (which is why the subject isn't publicly acceptable) and that y'all have to rely on blanket pejoratives like "communistic propaganda" to smear it in hopes that people take the bait and try and engage in a discussion of "what is communism" rather than sidestepping it because I happen not to give a shit if I get called a Marxist.

also i would be carefull with those statements - cartboard box under bridge could be also technicaly cathegorised as "a place to live", same as homeless shelter

Yawn. No.

This is a well established concept and "a cardboard box under a bridge" does not constitute somewhere to live for the purposes of such a discussion because such defeats the purpose of a right to housing, that being the provision of the general welfare.

I'm curious exactly whose welfare capitalism is supposed to furnish. Y'all have admitted it's a function of birth lottery rather than merit and clearly accept a system in which people can easily drop into a state of destitution through no fault of their own, so - what is the point?

[kamuimac]

Y'all have admitted it's a function of birth lottery rather than merit

this is simply not true.

in all of countries of west you have systems of public schools , mandatory education and acess to piethora of scholarships (starting with social , through the one for good grades , the one funded by our city council for school subject olympics , sport one etc etc )

access to knowledge is easier and cheaper then ever in whole history of world.

and yet people choose being lazy and look for excuses .

i could describe here whole history of my family who in span of last 3 generations got from nowhere to somewhere really good - all thanks to solely public education and very hard work over their whole lives - but i again cba .

lazy people will be forever lazy . and they forver will be looking for excuses.

[Elegiac]

this is simply not true.

in all of countries of west you have systems of public schools , mandatory education and acess to piethora of scholarships.

acess to knowledge is easier and cheaper then ever in whole history of world.

and yet people choose being lazy and look for excuses .

Are you implying our social and economic systems are perfect? Lol.

i could describe here whole history of my family who in span of last 3 generations got from nowhere to somewhere really good - all thanks to solely public education and very hard work over their whole lives - but i again cba .

And again, I would not care because your experience is not generalisable and thus not evidence.

[kamuimac]

Are you implying our social and economic systems are perfect? Lol.



And again, I would not care because your experience is not generalisable and thus not evidence.

if you are speaking about living and work conditions of people living in US/ EU compared to whole previous human history before 2nd world war ?

dude we are living in f.... heaven compared to those times.

just the fact that we havent seen war in last 70+ years in EU is something which never before happened in our whole history .

[Vorkreist]

You realise that the people like me, with those views. are often the people with higher educations that make more money than your right wing people.

It's literally a bunch of more likely to be well off people telling the people who are more likely to be less educated and more likely to be poor... that social nets to help everyone benefits society. And then that side with the more likely to be less educated, and poorer people bitch to the higher educated, well off people. That they just want to live carefree from taxes... TAXES THAT THEY PAY

.

The reality looks different though. Its 90% consisted of below 25 yr old purple hair baristas and useless degree mcdonalds workers.
[Infraction]

[Hilhen7]

this is simply not true.

in all of countries of west you have systems of public schools , mandatory education and acess to piethora of scholarships (starting with social , through the one for good grades , the one funded by our city council for school subject olympics , sport one etc etc )

access to knowledge is easier and cheaper then ever in whole history of world.

and yet people choose being lazy and look for excuses .

i could describe here whole history of my family who in span of last 3 generations got from nowhere to somewhere really good - all thanks to solely public education and very hard work over their whole lives - but i again cba .

lazy people will be forever lazy . and they forver will be looking for excuses.

LOL lazy?

It's usually the poor kids working at younger ages trying to help their family survive....

It's so funny how people make fun of McDonalds workers and at the same time they us that the poor are lazy. Everyone has to start somewhere, how do you expect them to obtain a degree?

[Themius]

The reality looks different though. Its 90% consisted of below 25 yr old purple hair baristas and useless degree mcdonalds workers.

Useless degrees were more popular in the past than they are now since most people now want to make decent money... this Is why the most popular degrees are business, health professions, social science, psychology, biological/biomedical, engineering. You do not live in reality either that or you just don't give a fuck about facts...

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if you are speaking about living and work conditions of people living in US/ EU compared to whole previous human history before 2nd world war ?

dude we are living in f.... heaven compared to those times.

just the fact that we havent seen war in last 70+ years in EU is something which never before happened in our whole history .

1. That depends on your skin colour. Much of America functions under the same atmosphere as the very laws that inspired Nazi Germany.

2. living and working conditions have gotten worse over the past 50ish years... or remained stagnant..

I'm including ability to actually afford a home in living conditions.

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this is simply not true.

in all of countries of west you have systems of public schools , mandatory education and acess to piethora of scholarships (starting with social , through the one for good grades , the one funded by our city council for school subject olympics , sport one etc etc )

Schools in usa run by property taxes mostly and red lining led to lower house prices... and areas with minorities instantly were worth less... regardless of any other factors other than being too brown..this then led to less funding for those brown schools which then led to well... poor education and not equality.

access to knowledge is easier and cheaper then ever in whole history of world.

Access to knowledge online is easier... but now... the boomers demand people have 20-40k or more... degrees.

and yet people choose being lazy and look for excuses .

this sounds like the boomer generation...they worked less, made more money, and took more vacation time from work than current generations. Who the fuck are you calling lazy?

i could describe here whole history of my family who in span of last 3 generations got from nowhere to somewhere really good - all thanks to solely public education and very hard work over their whole lives - but i again cba .

Good for you, is your family every family is your family every situation in the whole world? Were there laws specifically made to oppress and marginalise your family?

lazy people will be forever lazy . and they forver will be looking for excuses.

You mean like the baby boomers who crashed the entire economy out of being lazy and wanting easy money?

[Vorkreist]

Useless degrees were more popular in the past than they are now since most people now want to make decent money... this Is why the most popular degrees are business, health professions, social science, psychology, biological/biomedical, engineering. You do not live in reality either that or you just don't give a fuck about facts...

Cute attempt to spread around that commie gang from the narrow and dumb fields they actually most flock to.
Speaking of facts it would be amazing if one day that spectrum of "HIGHLY EDUCATED" children stops skipping history and economics classes before embarking on "progressive" crusades.