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  1. #1

    [spoiler] My head is spinning.. but i figured it out, Sylvanas and Jailer are good!

    Oke. First of all, we thought Ner'zhul created Frostmourne. Tichondirus said that.

    In 'Manual of Monsters' we learned it was not forged from Ner'zhul as Lichking, but given to him from demons. Soo.. from the Nathrezim maybe?

    The First Lichking was created from the Legion. Was he maybe created to get entrance to the Shadowlands somehow? So the Lichking is a real danger to the shadowlands.

    Could the Nathrezim maybe, be related to the Venthyr? Necromantic Vampires. Could a Venthyr/Nathrezim maybe get the sword and helmet from the Jailer and be ordered to bring it to the Lich King to get control over him, because he didn't want the Legion to get into shadowlands? I mean, there was never a 'undead problem' before the Lichking was created and now suddenly there always needs to be a Lichking?

    So finally Arthas dies and the Jailer is waiting for the Lichking, but all he gets is this Arthas guy who was just a Vessel, dumped into the maw like a piece of s*. The real Lichking who is the dangerous part is still out there, hiding in someone else body and suddenly Sylvanas pops up, because she jumped from the Frozen Throne and the Jailer is like "Bring me the real Lichking or eternal pain awaits you! The Lichking is sticking to someone alive out there" So Sylvanas starts her thing and sends as many souls as possible to the Jailer in hope to find the one corrupted soul and in an act of desperation she finally decides to send everyone there.

    Take this with a grain of salt, I just think we are at some point were everything is possible.

    But could anything of this be true or be part of the whole big unknown picture?

  2. #2
    In another thread, I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    This thread reminds me of the frantic flailing before BfA launched trying to blame ANYONE or ANYTHING but the Lich Queen burning Teldrassil.
    Didn't realize I had made a prediction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  3. #3
    yeah I think Sylvanas is the hero we deserve...

    this is all part of some Grand Plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    They had no prior build-up and instead tried to leech off of already established things people are familiar with. The Scourge? Maldraxxus did that. The Lich King? The Jailer did that. Frostmourne? The Runecarver made that. Sargeras corruption by demons and everything resulting from that? Also the Jailer's plan.

  4. #4
    So just as a recap, you're saying these guys:



    Are the good guys?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  5. #5
    Yes, Sylvanas was so dumb that she thought the Lich King spirit was hiding within the soul of a Night Elf child, hence the burning of Teldrassil

  6. #6
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    Are the good guys?
    Did you just assume their alignment?

  7. #7
    No. Blizzard already confirmed that Jailer is the main villain, central driving force, and final boss of Shadowlands, as well as an ancient evil who seeks to consume the entire cosmos. Jailer and Sylvanas are evil.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inukashi View Post

    The First Lichking was created from the Legion. Was he maybe created to get entrance to the Shadowlands somehow?
    Well according to the most recent bullshit lore development, the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne were created in the Shadowlands and the Nathrezim somehow got it from there. They can get into the Shadowlands just fine. What the demons needed was an obedient servant with a bigass zombie army. Simple as that.

  9. #9
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inukashi View Post
    But could anything of this be true or be part of the whole big unknown picture?
    A few issues with your construction. The primary one would be that Sylvanas knew who the new Lich King was prior to her death - she saw Bolvar wearing the Helm of Domination at the pinnacle of Icecrown Citadel in Edge of Night. So if she died, went to the Maw, and the Jailer demanded this knowledge she could just immediately tell him so - no need for sending countless souls to the Maw to search for the Lich King. The Lich King is always the person who wears the Helm, after all.

    Manual of Monsters is one of the WoW RPG supplemental books that are officially non-canon as concerns Warcraft universe lore, so no information provided in it can be taken at face value.

    I do think the Venthyr (or at least Sire Denathrius) and the Nathrezim share some kind of connection. Denathrius may have been a Nathrezim that somehow wasn't naturally demonic or whose demonic nature changed such that it could go to the Shadowlands, or perhaps Denathrius is some kind of hybrid being. But I think it more likely that Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination were given to the Legion by the Jailer, instead; probably as a result of his capture of the Runecarver. The Jailer allowed the demons to take these implements knowing full well that in the course of time they'd serve his ends, which they did.

    I don't think either the Jailer or Sylvanas are good, either. They're actions are deeply unethical and immoral, monstrously so. It is possible (albeit I think it personally unlikely) that they could be right in that the WoW metacosm is intrinsically flawed or broken, but being right and being good are two very different things.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #10
    Please don't focus too much on the 'Jailer and Sylv' good part. I just wanted to finish throwing theories with a Joke that may become true at some point. Maybe half of it.

    What I think is more interesting is the connection of Shadowlands, Venthyr, Castle Nathria, Nathrezim and Legion. I could think of the Nathrezim of fel Infused Venthyr. Like the Man'ari are fel infused Eredar.

    I just think, the Nathrezim may be plotting something. They are always plotting. The Legion is defeated and a lot of demons are waiting for a new overmind.

    Also what I wrote isn't a fully thought through construct. It's more a short brainstorm.
    Last edited by Inukashi; 2020-08-28 at 12:56 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    So just as a recap, you're saying these guys:



    Are the good guys?
    The jailer is without a doubt, according to Greek lore and the god of death Thanatos' story, which is copied word for word by Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No. Blizzard already confirmed that Jailer is the main villain, central driving force, and final boss of Shadowlands, as well as an ancient evil who seeks to consume the entire cosmos. Jailer and Sylvanas are evil.
    Bait and switch. You'll see.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Inukashi View Post
    Please don't focus too much on the 'Jailer and Sylv' good part. I just wanted to finish throwing theories with a Joke that may become true at some point. Maybe half of it.

    What I think is more interesting is the connection of Shadowlands, Venthyr, Castle Nathria, Nathrezim and Legion. I could think of the Nathrezim of fel Infused Venthyr. Like the Man'ari are fel infused Eredar.

    I just think, the Nathrezim may be plotting something. They are always plotting. The Legion is defeated and a lot of demons are waiting for a new overmind.

    Also what I wrote isn't a fully thought through construct. It's more a short brainstorm.
    I don't believe for one moment that you weren't epxecting people to focus on the "Jailer and Sylvanas are good" part. Clickbait title, much?
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-08-28 at 01:03 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  13. #13
    Arthas will save us

  14. #14
    Here's a much simpler and far more likely theory - the Jailer and the Legion struck a bargain at some point, where the Jailer gave the demons the artifacts they needed to create the Lich King and in return the demons carried some of the Jailer's power out of the Maw, giving him some access or influence outside of his prison.

    Like, who knows - it's totally possible that the deal was that the Legion would use the Lich King to break Azeroth's defences and once that was done, they'd do what Sylvanas did, i.e. they'd destroy the Helm of Domination to open the gateway to the Maw. Heck, perhaps the whole reason why Frostmourne has the power to steal souls is so that the blade could build up a stash of juicy mortal souls, which could later be released and sent to the Jailer as a power-snack?

    Regardless, since the Legion failed, none of that ever happened, so the Jailer needed a plan B and eventually he found this undead woman who wanted to avoid her afterlife so much that she'd be willing to damn her whole world for it. And yes, I'm talking about Sylvanas.

    And that's how we got to where we are now.
    Last edited by Sarethion; 2020-08-28 at 01:11 PM.

  15. #15
    I'm loving all this massive over reading into this new lore reconning the origins of the lick king's stuff to the maw.

    The payoff will be that the Legion and Jaiier ethier came to an arrangement or the Dreadlords just stole it.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    No. Blizzard already confirmed that Jailer is the main villain, central driving force, and final boss of Shadowlands, as well as an ancient evil who seeks to consume the entire cosmos. Jailer and Sylvanas are evil.
    Just like we'd never guess who burned the big tree? They'll retcon/change anything on a whim if it suits their purpose at the moment. The jailer will die, Sylv will replace him and fix death or something.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    The jailer is without a doubt, according to Greek lore and the god of death Thanatos' story, which is copied word for word by Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Bait and switch. You'll see.
    Blizzard, capable of a plot twist, thats a nice amount of faith you have in them, remember when BFA was going to be morally Grey and the burning of Teldrassil wasnt going to be as simple as Sylvanas burns a tree?

    You're fooling yourself if you think that shadowy looking antagonist is a good guy, sadly, blizzard doesnt have that level of imagination.

    Critique aside, its simply too complicated a plot for a 12+ game to really invest into mind-blowing plot twists, plus most people hate Sylvanas after she genocided Teldrassil soooo, yeah.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by msmollymillions View Post
    Just like we'd never guess who burned the big tree? They'll retcon/change anything on a whim if it suits their purpose at the moment. The jailer will die, Sylv will replace him and fix death or something.
    Except they won't. Jailer is the final boss. Have fun killing him. Before that though you will have to kill his pawn Sylvanas.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    The jailer is without a doubt, according to Greek lore and the god of death Thanatos' story, which is copied word for word by Blizzard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Bait and switch. You'll see.
    We learned Sargeras's motivations eventually, that didn't stop us from ending his reign of terror and villainy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  20. #20
    Legendary! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Blizzard plots are almost always very straightforward. You have a premise and a goal. The goal is reached even though obstacles may be present along the way. There is no way for the story to evolve and reach another conclusion. This has been shown time and time again.

    The latest example has been with N'zoth, a character so mischievous, astute and scheming that it was only natural to assume our win would be piloted by him somehow, and that he would escape at the end. No such luck, variations of the goal are impossible, N'zoth has been neutralized like every other final boss in the past. The same will happen with the Jailer.

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