Does Arthas deserve to be in the Maw?

[Kyphael]

Just a note here, narratively, stories where the struggle amounts to nothing still have value as narratives. Many cyberpunk stories place the emphasis and importance on the struggle itself, regardless of the outcome (which is often bad for the protagonist/s, who in many stories have 'escape to another dystopian hellhole to start over with a clean slate' is their best outcome).

Similarly, a tale where someone tries, and fails, to redeem themselves still has value as a narrative, especially in a high-fantasy setting, as it clearly establishes that there are some actions you just don't come back from, no matter how good your intentions, and even those good intentions may have only been good from one's egocentric world view. Not everybody gets to wipe their slate clean if they're not strong enough to face their inner demons, and we know from the novels that Arthas did everything but confront his inner demons every step of the way.

From a literary standpoint, sure. If we're talking high level literature here with complexity and character development like Dante's Inferno or what have you, sure, but pedestrian level story-telling like Warcraft? Never going to happen where there is no happy ending.

[Aucald]

Hmm not sure that is true. The Jailer did not craft the Helm or Frostmourne, the Runecarver did. And the Jailer apparently needed them made and could not make them himself. We really know nothing about how the present condition of the Shadowlands was formed by the First Ones. I am not saying Zovaal would struggle with the Scourge; he is supposed to be a Titan level threat after all. I am just unsure that the power of control over undeath and souls is his primary (or even original) aspect. Notably most of the creatures in his army are NOT classed as undead. I don't know if you are in the beta but undead are a minority in the Maw. The Mawsworn are humanoids and there are numerous beasts and giants but undead are not the bulk of the army.

Bolvar confirms at Oribos that the power behind the Helm of Domination is the Maw itself, which is also why the shards of the Helm can be used to peer into the Maw to find the captured leaders (at great risk to Bolvar and the Maw Walker who are using it to spy in the Maw). I would agree that the Runecarver probably did make the Helm (and Frostmourne), but as the Jailer's prisoner he likely made them at the behest and according to the instructions of the Jailer. They're the Jailer's tools in that sense, and that strongly implies the Scourge is similarly his tool in the ultimate sense.

I know there aren't any undead in the Maw (aside from a glut of spirit beings), but that doesn't really matter. If the Maw is the power behind the Scourge then the Scourge is still just extension of the Jailer's power in the physical universe.

- - - Updated - - -

She was never an agent of the Jailer until she got in the Maw though. Since we are talking about people judged by the Arbiter, the Arbiter supposedly sees ones life, not every potential future (and given that she'd only be a danger to the metacosm IF the Arbiter enabled her, that would be an amazing paradox for that poor robot).

Hard to say. I'm personally of a mind that on Sylvanas' second/third death (the one at Icecrown Citadel) she bypassed the Arbiter entirely and was brought to the Maw directly by the Jailer's power, with the ultimate goal to bring her into his service. So I think Sylvanas has only likely been judged once by the Arbiter, when she died originally at Quel'Thalas - and hasn't been judged again since she became a banshee. If she were judged *now*, though; then it would likely be an express trip to the Maw.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Mabye it’s explained in the arthas book I never read but with out further explanation of his soul being eaten by frostmourn I don’t think any one can really say.

If he was spilt like Uther and then only recombined when he died then Probably not

If he was darkened but still in control then probably.

If he was a twisted slave that just had the same ego but not the soul then probably not.

[Grazrug]

Mabye it’s explained in the arthas book I never read but with out further explanation of his soul being eaten by frostmourn I don’t think any one can really say.

If he was spilt like Uther and then only recombined when he died then Probably not

If he was darkened but still in control then probably.

If he was a twisted slave that just had the same ego but not the soul then probably not.

Read the Arthas novel. He always was in control and still acted the way he did. That guy deserves the Maw just as bad as gul'dan.

[Tharivor]

I am not an Arthas fanboy, nor do I actually care that much if he gets redeemed (I have said in the past that I don't like redemption stories). However I am pointing out that Blizzard might be setting up a redemption arc. Of course wanting to kill everyone on Azeroth is twisted, but if it's done for the goal of uniting the world against an even bigger threat... then it really isn't hard to see how the writers might be setting up that arc.

Oh yes, I certainly agree Blizzard is trying to set up his redemption: the latest video is proof enough of that. I just think it doesn't really make logical sense- "uniting the world" doesn't mean anything if everyone on the world is dead.

I suppose it could be revealed that no souls are supposed to get sent directly into the Maw and only those who failed at redemption in Rivendreth end up there, with Sylvanas' vision being the result of the Jailor's manipulation. But I don't think we've seen any indication of that as yet and the promo material would seem to imply the opposite.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not to mention his thralls would fall apart eventually, leaving the world quite weak.

He could have used more powerful magic to stops the undead from falling apart Mabye if he got stong enough he could have done it for the whole of scourge.

[Clozer]

The main slogan of the Wrath of the Lich King expansion Box covering Arthas was:

"If you stare long enough into the Abyss.. the Abyss stares back into you."

[tromage2]

You can ask yourself if he deserves the Maw because of his actions.
But his actions are also a result of those around him and those that he encountered.

So if he deserves the Maw does Jaina aswell? Uther? his father? i mean they all had their part into his path. Or might have stopped it.
It is kinda the same situation like Thrall just leaving Garrosh to just lead the Horde even when he did not want it. So does Thrall deserve the same path as Garrosh because of his role.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Read the Arthas novel. He always was in control and still acted the way he did. That guy deserves the Maw just as bad as gul'dan.

In all three scenarios he would have been in control the different is rather his soul had a say on the matter.

[Grazrug]

You can ask yourself if he deserves the Maw because of his actions.
But his actions are also a result of those around him and those that he encountered.

So if he deserves the Maw does Jaina aswell? Uther? his father? i mean they all had their part into his path. Or might have stopped it.
It is kinda the same situation like Thrall just leaving Garrosh to just lead the Horde even when he did not want it. So does Thrall deserve the same path as Garrosh because of his role.

Actions speak louder then words. And Arthas willingly strode down that road to hell.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Oh Jesus there going to make arthas the new jailer after we kill this won’t aren’t they? I can see it now him saying some nonsense about frostmourn making him evil and that he really wanted to be good but he was still a bad boy so he’s gonna stay in the maw for ever to make up for it.

[Theangryone]

I foresaw bad things therefore I did bad things and took power for myself is authoritarian douchebag 101

[Feral Druid ist Op]

there are worse ppl in revendreth, such as kealthas who did a genozid and tryed to sum KJ to destroy azeroth, and kelthuzad in maldraxxus whos literally responsible for arthas being corrupted in the first place, so no prob not

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I'd say Frostmourne is essentially a small Maw in itself. Which makes Uther a type of Maw Walker.

Frostmawne

[Mehrunes]

Speaking of Gul'dan, I have a theory that AU Gul'Dan's death may have been the engine breaking event. Our Gul'dan perished long ago in the midst of the Second War and would have presumably passed on to the Shadowlands. What happens when an identical soul from an alternate timeline is introduced to the prime continuity's afterlife where the original soul is already present? Blizz really screwed the pooch with the "One Legion, one Twisting Nether to span all timelines" ridiculousness because one now has to wonder if the Shadowlands abide by the same rules.

An interesting theory. Given how Ysera was one of the last souls to reach Shadowlands in the traditional way before the mechanism broke down, it sort of fits the timeline as well.

[Aucald]

I am not sure that Sylvanas went to the Shadowlands at all on her first death. I think Uther having his soul cleaved in half instead of fully being absorbed by Frostmourne was a special case, probably because of Uther's strong ties to the Light. If it was something that happened to most of Frostmourne's victim, all the Covenants would have received several souls wounded by the Maw and Devos would not be sitting with a single case but an array of paladins, soldiers and rangers sworn to their duty who were all scarred by Frostmourne.

I'd say Frostmourne is essentially a small Maw in itself. Which makes Uther a type of Maw Walker.

It's difficult to say, but from what we've seen and experienced of Frostmourne's internal landscape (such as when you enter it both during the LK fight as well as in the Blades of the Fallen Price acquisition quests) I don't think it really accounts for what High Elf Sylvanas describes on her death: "[...] drifts in a sea of comfort, physical sensations replaced by the purity of emotion. She can grasp bliss, see joy, hear peace. This is the afterlife, her destiny. The eternal sea in which she found herself after she fell defending Silvermoon." That doesn't feel like Frostmourne at all. Perhaps it's just a projection of her dying mind, who can really say. I'm of the mind that Arthas opted not to consume Sylvanas into Frostmourne because he had a better idea for her now-unlimbered soul, namely warping her and it into a banshee and setting her against her homeland as one of the Scourge.

I'd agree with the notion that Frostmoune is sort of like a part of the Maw, though; it definitely seems to function that way.

[Mehrunes]

Hmm not sure that is true. The Jailer did not craft the Helm or Frostmourne, the Runecarver did. And the Jailer apparently needed them made and could not make them himself. We really know nothing about how the present condition of the Shadowlands was formed by the First Ones. I am not saying Zovaal would struggle with the Scourge; he is supposed to be a Titan level threat after all. I am just unsure that the power of control over undeath and souls is his primary (or even original) aspect. Notably most of the creatures in his army are NOT classed as undead. I don't know if you are in the beta but undead are a minority in the Maw. The Mawsworn are humanoids and there are numerous beasts and giants but undead are not the bulk of the army.

In the pre-event Mawsworn take control over the Scourge (or at least a part of it, not 100% sure on that one). If his minions can do it, I'd say so could the Jailer.

[Garymorilix]

The Maw has been established to be the hell for the worst of the worst souls.

The one odd thing about the Maw (from my perspective anyways) is that we don't know of any named character who ended up there.
Like for real, I watched some beta here and there and not one reference to any character who ended up in the Maw.

What is the criteria for ending up there? Kael'thas might have been noble for a while but the moment he tried to summon KJ to destroy Azeroth should have gotten him a one-way ticket to hell, right?

If we don't find characters in the Maw and told why they are there then how can we speculate about anything?
Clearly Arthas was not supposed to go to the Maw either, hence why Uther dropped him there before the Arbiter could sort him.

tl,dr: Who is in the Maw?

[Aucald]

Speaking of Gul'dan, I have a theory that AU Gul'Dan's death may have been the engine breaking event. Our Gul'dan perished long ago in the midst of the Second War and would have presumably passed on to the Shadowlands. What happens when an identical soul from an alternate timeline is introduced to the prime continuity's afterlife where the original soul is already present? Blizz really screwed the pooch with the "One Legion, one Twisting Nether to span all timelines" ridiculousness because one now has to wonder if the Shadowlands abide by the same rules.

The "One Legion, one Twisting Nether to span all timelines" facet of WoD has been superceded and retconned by Chronicle Vol. 3. Although it is still an open question as to what happens when a theoretically duplicate soul arrives in the Shadowlands. Given that we see or hear nothing of Gul'dan in the Shadowlands it's possible he never went there, and may have been more demon than Orc in the end (which means his soul could be in the Nether instead).

[Mehrunes]

She was never an agent of the Jailer until she got in the Maw though. Since we are talking about people judged by the Arbiter, the Arbiter supposedly sees ones life, not every potential future (and given that she'd only be a danger to the metacosm IF the Arbiter enabled her, that would be an amazing paradox for that poor robot).

Yeah, judging people by their every potential future is pretty much out of the question. By that metric even the likes of Hogger could potentially be cosmic-level threats and as such everyone would go to the Maw from the get go. Though I suppose that could actually be the angle they are going with. Since Arbiter is sort of robotic, the reason for the Drought could be of Arbiter's own making because of an error in her programming. The part of her shutting down and not directing the souls as appropriate could be presented as a wrong assumption by their servants.